Split this board?

[boaterguy]

I think the VO vs. VM depends on the person, their writing skills,their agenda,etc.

Some people can correspond with a lady and really get to know her while others can not!

Some go after the arm candy while others go after a real person.

All that being said...I was a WOVO....the only reason I even considered going to Russia was because of the correspondence I had with my wife. My wife and I are definitely that true "needle in a haystack"! The only gal I really wrote,the only gal I really met, and we have been married for 5+1/2 years now!

[boaterguy]

Mars

Would you care to cite some examples? Most of the TRs I've read where the OP was flamed were large majority VO. Usually the result of some bonehead thought process. But as others have mention if you are going to have an opinion on the forums, prepare to defend it. There will always be someone who disagrees with you. Grow yourself a pair and live with it. This will be the case among VM's if they were to have a separate forum. Same with VOs. The theme of this forum is RW and all the intricacies and nuances it entails. In essence, it covers all such questions.

I've noticed you start a lot of threads on the VO vs VM subject. Almost serially. What is it you seek? Affirmations that VM is "THE" way to go? That it's "okay" to lie? The ends justify the means? Forget it, it ain't gunna happen. From my observation over the years the VO approach has been chastised much more than VM and the VM approach has long been encouraged.

If you are happy with the VM approach, power to you. Stick with it. Many have been successful with that approach. This thread like all the others liked themed will turn into another long winded, hot air debate.

I would say he is looking for affirmation it is OK for him to visit many the way he wants to do it!

[Misha]

And while we're talking about records. I said it was absolutely insane for not having a backup plan.

Thanks for the clarification. Your exact words were:

This might just be the most perfect answer to this very old and worn out debate. The women here will say that WOVO is the only way while most logical thinking and experienced men who have been around the block a time or two will say something else. I just cant tell you at the times that I've met some poor bastard who went to see one girl and it not workout within the first 15 minutes of their meeting if in fact a meeting ever happened in the first place. Most guys will be too ashamed to ever admit this. There is no exact science but for some guy to listen to RW/UW and guys who got very lucky with the WOVO approach is absolutely insane.

In my reading it did imply that it is insane to do a WOVO, but if that is not what you meant, then I stand corrected.

[GregfromGa]

Ok, one more time for the record.   I think it would take a complete moron to write one girl and go visit here without having a backup plan. Your backup plan can be a variety of options. Maybe this will be the last post on this subject ever, but I dont think that will be the case. I'd say in about another month or two or three when a new crop of posters are here, the subject will again be raised and we'll do this all over again. Guys that were lucky enough to wovo and it work out will be quick to say thats the only way. The women will say that they wouldnt give a guy who was going to visit 3 other girls the time of day and they would drop them quick. The other guys who went to see one girl and it not work out, well you'll probably never hear from them. Not many guys want to admit to that kin of crash and burn. It doesnt take many of those trips to throw a monkey wrench into this whole process. Then there will be the guys like me who have witnessed the poor tortured guy who just wasted $2 grand on a ticket and apartment only to have his dream girl never show or never call after he is back in Wisconsin on the farm.

[Misha]

Then there will be the guys like me who have witnessed the poor tortured guy who just wasted $2 grand on a ticket and apartment only to have his dream girl never show or never call after he is back in Wisconsin on the farm.

When did you witness this? Six or seven years ago? The fact of the matter is that much has changed since then. Now, for example, my wife's friends in Russia are the ones asking her if she has Skype. One year ago, these same friends would likely have gone blank if you had mentioned Skype. If you are going to be contacting women in Russia, many will now ask you to chat online via Skype, will ask to be your friends on Facebook and may expect that you spend hours chatting online every night as they now have the means to do so. Sure, there is not guarantee that they will be truly compatible, but it is also unlikely that the the "dream girl" will never show or will never call after the first brief date. If both invest a great deal of time before meeting, both are likely to give it much time before pulling the plug.

[GregfromGa]

I witnessed this this past September in Kiev but thats beside the point. You act like this dont happen. It happens all the time.

[Chicagoguy]

Hate to say it but times have changed and I think Misha is correct. I look back to when I first went to Russia 18 years ago and they are a different country now. 21st century. I was a WMVM man back then. It was mainly time and money that made correct sense for me.

Even though I met my wife on a WMVM trip I am not against a careful WOVO. But it never hurts to have a backup plan, even if it is just sightseeing.

[I/O]

Greg: "It happens all the time"? Where and when exactly please? Shouting the loudest doesn't give an argument any credibility or substance. You've wriggled from a guy would be insane to go VO to a guy would be insane not to have a backup plan in less than two pages. Big difference. On the latter I agree and I also agree (I've written endlessly on this) that backup plan may not necessarily involve meeting women.

This ridiculous chest beating that VM is the only way to go is nonsense and if you, me and others cant's see it by now, then it's high time we stopped writing on these subjects. Social networking sites such as Facebook and the Russian versions of similar have long since put paid to guys hiding behind glass doors which is a fundamental requirement of VM (Unless done through an agency which are pretty much a joke in Russia now anyway).

IMO, VM is for guys who need to get a result. VO is for guys who don't care and can usually afford not to care. The risks are clear. You might talk for weeks / months and it amounts to nothing. So what? The risk of VM is she is accepting many also and you are just a number along with the risk that someone who is serious discovers and doesn't like you doing the VM thing so you end up with nothing anyway. There are very few (I happen to know 3 personally) VM trippers who put their hands up when they go tits up also. I don't think it is only the VO's hiding behind silence.

Hate to say it but times have changed

I agree completely and the changes over the last 3-5 years are quite significant if difficult to put one's finger on precisely. There are quite a number of guys who don't want to accept this and that's their choice. Nevertheless, they unfortunately don't realise they are now under qualified to provide advice. Certainly I've backed far away from giving dating advice since my last trip to Russia as I am now largely out of touch with the modern scene other than to note that times have changed.

[Misha]

I witnessed this this past September in Kiev but thats beside the point. You act like this dont happen. It happens all the time.

Well, I would say that if two people have been talking/chatting via Skype for many hours every day and if the two of them met through legitimate means (i.e. a decent site or agency) and have been chatting daily for weeks and months, it is unlikely that they will dump each other within 15 minutes. Sure, no guarantee that it will not work out, but this will invariably be decided after days or weeks of being together IMHO.

[GregfromGa]

Misha and I/O, obviously you boys are right. I failed to look at your post count until now and I can see that yall have spent a lot of time here. The last thing I want to been known as is the guy who wriggled out of something or shouted the loudest. That settles it with me. I'm more than convinced. WOVO and only one is the way to go.

[Sculpto]

LOL @ Greg's sarcastic last post.

But.. the point being made here is true.  Nowadays there are so many easy ways to make contact that do not involve agencies the absolute fool is the guy who spends money to meet ladies.  I know that will probably ruffle some feathers, but, it is the truth.  Even if the lady "you" are corresponding with doesn't have her own computer, someone she knows does and the internet cafes are cheap.  There old excuse of no computer just doesn't fly anymore.

I would also add that the novelty of internet dating is already starting to wear thin on a lot of ladies, so, keep that in mind.  The same liars, sex tourists and keyboard romeos are screwing things up for serious people.  Really need to keep that in mind.

As far as the WOVO vs. WMVM or WMVO or any other variant.. its really a personal choice.  If a guy is comfortable with travelling so far with plans to only meet one lady and knows the risk of real life chemistry failing to materialize its not like he was being foolish.  Its not hard to find some alternate ladies if things don't work out.  Guys just have to be bold and get the entire idea of Mail Order Brides out of their heads.  Mail Order Brides DO NOT EXIST IN THE FSU!  Developing friendships that lead to a real relationship has a much better chance of resulting in a lasting marriage anyway.

Ok, here is one thought that has been on my mind for along time... have you guys heard of Hospitality Club and Couch Surfers?  Both of these sites connect travelers with locals who are willing to host visitors, usually for free.  They aren't dating sites, but, ways for people to have cultural exchanges.  I have been a hosting member for several years and have had a number of visitors from different countries that I have either just showed around for a day of who stayed at my place.  Now, I figure a savvy guy could probably make that system work for him if he was smart enough and get a really excellent cultural experience.

[Al_C]

At the risk of having it sound like I am telling the moderators here how to do their jobs, may I make a suggestion?

I have been a moderator in several internet messaging boards, and one of those boards is still active, so I speak from experience.

There is no excuse for contemptuous attacks or to treat any member here with disrespect.  The members who insist on doing it think they are making their point that way, but just the opposite is true.  Showing contempt takes away from your credibility and makes people not listen to you.  It also muddies up threads where people are trying to be honest and trying to get honest advice with a lot of nonsense that does not belong there.  A perfect example is my recent trip report where my lady came to see me, a trip that went very well except for one mistake I made, one that she forgave me for, but one where some members here harped on it again and again and again, without any regard for anything or anyone else but themselves.

On boards that I moderate, I do not permit any display of contempt.  If I see a contemptuous post, I delete it.  If I see a string of contemptuous posts coming from a single member, I warn him/her.  If the contempt continues, then I recommend to the other moderators that we vote on banning this member.

I said enough, since I am not a moderator here.

[KenC]

I said enough, since I am not a moderator here.

Quite enough, thank you.  Now, try telling the truth instead of snarky little innuendos like a little girl. (But if you want to go into your numerous "other" mistakes; we can.)
KenC

[Boethius]

Al, I believe Dan sends members personal messages.  I think it is rare to moderate posts on this board, other than unapproved links.

I think that once you start moderating posts, you are moderating expression.  Posters don`t like having their thoughts modified, and a lot drop out.

[XMan]

Reading through this thread I'm not sure if this is a continuing WOVO / WMVM battle, a why aren't people more respectful argument, or a "what is the purpose of trip reports" discussion.  

I thought WOVO was crazy, yet I'm doing it again.  So I am now officially crazy for certain.  

WMVM didn't work for me when I tried it before, so I struck out on both counts.  

I don't understand why it matters, and therefore why anyone feels it's worth arguing over.  

Is it because WMVM seems sleazy, or deceitful?  I think it's how one presents oneself and treats the other people involved that matters.  If it's a sex tour, then I understand the negative view, of course.  If it's a result of uncertainty and feeling that one really needs to meet "x" number of women in person to understand who might be "the one," what's the problem?  
Is the "craziness" of WOVO because WOVO is an all your eggs in one basket scenario?  That's been my view, but it's certainly worked out for some, and I'm doing it again.  Maybe I didn't do enough homework up front the first time.  Maybe I wasn't lucky.  Maybe the only the only thing that matters is how the person who chooses one path or the other feels about it personally.  

I like reading the trip reports, especially if the content is helpful (travel tips, places to see, customs, what to expect, etc.).  Does it matter if it's WMVM or WOVO?  Not sure why it would.  
I have no interest in reading about sexcapades.  But no one is forcing me.  I stop reading if that's the end goal.  
And if it's a legitimate WMVM, I don't see it as particularly scandalous or immoral.  I find it interesting to see how a particular person reaches a decision.  "She was not for me because..."  "I am still uncertain because...." "Here is why she is so wonderful...."

If someone feels excited about finding "the one," I could see how expressing some personal things makes it seem "real."  Maybe the author feels like shouting some things from the rooftops.  I cannot read minds and I'm not a psychiatrist, so who knows what the motivation is.  I would be concerned about what I shared (were I writing it myself) because I wouldn't want to somehow embarrass the woman in question or do something in an ungentlemanly fashion.  But as I have often said, to each his own (concerning this entire post).  

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Perhaps the author is amazed and glad he went through the (often scary) process, traveled, met an interesting woman or women.  Maybe (depending upon how the trip went) he wants to blow off steam because it was disastrous on a grand scale.  

I don't know that there is anything to prove.  I don't know that there is a dire necessity to to change someone else's mind, unless the goal is to prevent someone else from making a huge mistake.  

Perhaps some just like to argue.  

I don't know that personal attacks are ever helpful.  It just muddies the water for anyone trying to get useful information.  If someone makes a bonehead move, or more importantly is about to, warning him is wise.  If he does not listen, is it really any skin of anyone else's nose?  And does "I told you so" later, when he has ignored the advice and followed through on his bad decision, really accomplish anything?  

Again, to each his own.  I have no desire to argue with anyone.  I'm here to be helpful (if and when there is any way I can be) and to ask questions, and sometimes to vent when things are not going well.  

And on that note, I wish everyone a Happy New Year.

[KenC]

Xman,
Happy New Year to you too.
I believe you have the essence of the on going debate down rather well.  Personally, I think there is the option overlooked quite often that a "VM" guy just has not yet found any one woman that he is yet serious enough about to only visit her and no one else yet.  While waiting until an actual face to face meeting to make that decision seems wise to me, I do acknowledge that people can make a serious connection (real or imagined) via electronic means to warrent a "VO."

Perhaps some just like to argue.

Perhaps some just disagree with what is being written?  Or maybe want to point out what is NOT being written either?  All posts are subjective to the author's opinion.  While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so are those with an opposing point of view.  It is also quite natural for one to gloss over his own mistakes or shortcomings in a story told from one single point of view.  Too often an opposing point of view or any post with a hint of criticism is labled as a "personal attack" when the OP does not have a rebuttal nor can otherwise justify their shortcomings or errors in judgement.

Recently here on RWD, we have had 2 different TR's where the women were described in a scathing manner and every minute detail of the woman's "unacceptable" behavior was laid out before the readership.  After a spirited debate of the facts as given and raising of possibilities NOT offered up by the OPs, it became very clear that the TRs were written in a vengeful manner from a perspective of jilted lovers.

I have always looked upon RWD as a learning tool and a source of information for men about to embark upon this process.  I also believe it is the responsibility of the members to try and put forth a well balanced discussion with alternative opinions being heard for consideration to allow the reader to come to his or her own personal conclusion.  You are correct when you said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."  Sometimes an alternative point of view is just a different perspective and not a "personal attack" at all.
KenC

[XMan]

I see your points, Ken.

I agree with the presentation of alternative viewpoints.  Absolutely.   
I do think that the tone of a discussion sometimes has a tendency to become rude or worse a bit too quickly. 
That is what seems unnecessary, IMO. 

I'm sure there are cases where the OP is leaving out important information, or is disrespectful of the woman (or women) visited, or possibly worse. 

Admittedly, I tuned out early on concerning the "vengeful" TR's you mentioned. 
When it goes that route, I quickly lose interest or desire to participate in that particular thread. 

[I/O]

There old excuse of no computer just doesn't fly anymore.

It was "old" five years ago and didn't fly then.