Ethnic Americans in UW & Moscow

[Casanova]

I'd definetly stay away from Mirogorod, and if you are middle eastern or look like it, you may experience some trouble in Kiev.  As for Moscow, it's common news that racism exists, even against Asians.  I'd really research this.  I've been with Asians and talked with blacks when over...  I'd really be cautious.  It can be done, and is, but just know how to handle the various possibilities.

[al-c]

I am an Arab and look very much like who I am, although I don't speak with an Arabic accent (nor do I even know the language) since I was born in New York City.

I have been to Moscow twice and experienced no problems.  I was stopped once in the domestic airport for a spot check by a police officer, who spent about half a minute inspecting my passport and visa and then sent me on my way.

 

[LatinSwede]

The worst I get is somebody begging from me on the street or in the park.  It's like regardless of my ethnicity, I'm just another 'rich foreigner'.  In my case, and likely Al-C we don't have the mannerisms of somebody from a third world country.  It's  like as soon as I open my mouth (talking in Russian) they know I'm an English speaker.

[Casanova]

Trust me, if you are of color, or not, just being FOREIGN or percieved as "the rich foreigner" you WILL be harrassed by police in most of the FSU if you have contact with them, and if you spend much time there YOU WILL in most cases, unless you stay right in the center of the city, and very close to your hotel/aparment, etc.  It is one of the biggest problems of travel in the FSU, particularly Moscow and St. Petersburg, and to some extent, Kiev.  NEVER speak english around a cop over there.

[dorogoyroberto]

Trust me, if you are of color, or not, just being FOREIGN or  percieved as "the rich foreigner" you WILL be harrassed by police in  most of the FSU if you have contact with them, and if you spend much  time there YOU WILL in most cases, unless you stay right in the center  of the city, and very close to your hotel/aparment, etc. It is one of  the biggest problems of travel in the FSU, particularly Moscow and St.  Petersburg, and to some extent, Kiev. NEVER speak english around a cop  over there

Respectfully, what is your empirical knowledge of such incidents, especially in Kiev?

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[al-c]

Trust me, if you are of color, or not, just being FOREIGN or percieved as "the rich foreigner" you WILL be harrassed by police in most of the FSU if you have contact with them, and if you spend much time there YOU WILL in most cases, unless you stay right in the center of the city, and very close to your hotel/aparment, etc.  It is one of the biggest problems of travel in the FSU, particularly Moscow and St. Petersburg, and to some extent, Kiev.  NEVER speak english around a cop over there.

During the one incident I posted about where I was stopped in the Moscow airport by a police officer, he said something in Russian I did not understand.  My reply was "English?".  He then said "passsport", I produced it, and the encounter ended.

 

[Casanova]

My experience is QUITE vast, especially in Kiev.  Do we REALLY want to go there?   I didn't "get it" in the beginning when my male friend/terp and I were walking past two UKR cops one day and he said suddenly "shut up,,, DON't SPEAK ENGLISH!!!"... I later learned just how important that was... That's the biggest downside of Ukraine, and I hear Russia is way worse, though in another part of the FSU, I have had no problems at all (they do things way different with the police, more 'American' style rules).

   Sometimes, like getting off the metro at Hidropark, they just want to check you down because you are like the celebrity (American) in some cases... in other's they are being typical remnant SOVIET minded, in other's they simply WANT YOUR CASH (ie. Bribe, or ... PRESENT FOR THE POLICE), and GOD HOPE there aren't more than 1 or 2, because if there are 4, EVERYONE is getting (err, asking) for CASH.  I could tell you MANY stories from the small one to the BIG ones.  When will I write my novel?

  

 

 

[dorogoyroberto]

My experience is QUITE vast, especially in Kiev.

I  have seen three incidents of police asking to see passports, but  visitors are required to carry and produce them when requested. What  have you personally experienced/witnessed?

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Casanova]

One thing to keep in mind as fact, (Check the U.S. State Travel Warnings and Consulate Sheets for Russia, etc.) is not only does the U.S. openly admit now full surveillance of all e-communication, but they state the Russia, for one, forces the ISP's to operate recording equipment on the line.  So I won't get into the nitty gritty details, but allow me to share 'some' experiences of self, and my closest expat and tourist buddies (foreigners) in the FSU.  And I'll only share a few for now.

1. Stopped at Kraschatyk on New Years by UKR cops at random and asked for passport.  I had my original (as recommended) while my buddy from London had a copy.  He explained he had the original back in his hotel room, and after asking him to come to the police station, he sort of just kept insisting, and we slowly edged away. A copy would NOT suffice in this case (photocopy).

2.  I am with a UKR buddy who takes a leak by a tree off Kraschatyk because the bathrooms near McDonalds are closed (public).  They want 25 grivna, but through the UKR guy.  The pass off was obvious.  It is a CRIME to bribe in UKR, but it is also THE WAY of this culture for YEARS.

3.  I come to apartment, there is an UKR cop at the building outside the door, I enter the building, he enters with me.  The door lady (a new one who didn't know me, someone had gotten sick, she was the replacement) starts babbling in Ukrianian, I speak in Russian, she can't understand me, so I speak in English... MISTAKE!  Two more cops by coincidence come down off the elevator carrying machines guns and wearing bullet proof vests... all 3 cops ask me to come outside after they see I am American.  They ask me to get into their jeep.  They say there is a problem with immigration card, which was b.s. (this is what is said 98% of the time if they want an excuse to bring you in, or pull you to the side somewhere and get cash ie. bribe off you).  I am surrounded at this point by 4 cops, 3 with machine guns, and a 5th outside the jeep.  They start bickering over the amount.  One says "$100", another says "100 grivna".  I say "What? Right here, right now?"  He says "yes".  You are surrounded by 4 guys in a jeep with machines guns,,, cop on my left WHIPS out a flashlight as I pull out my money clip... near my forehead trying to imtimidate me... as they see I have about 300 grivna, cop to my right says "50 grivna for me, 50 grivna for him, and 100 grivna for the guys in the front seat"  200 grivna total.  Then they tell me "Suda" "Suda" meaning go away from your apartment that way (the park) and stay away for a while (without writing out the whole Russian, etc.).

4. I am with an American buddy, his visa has expired (very stupid back then) Cop has stopped us at random (because we were speaking english near Maidan) and asked for passports.  American buddy explains his it back at his apartment.  UKR cops says in broken english "Present for police friend?"  "Gift for police?"  "HE" was going to split (run), but an offer of 25 grivna was agreeable. (stupid idea to run, very).

5. New York buddy and I stopped at Metro Hidropark, frisked down, searched, detained for nearly 30 minutes.  Buddy has medication for serious medical problem, but the label was NOT clear enough for the police.  No bribe asked for, no bribe offered.

6. An American buddy is with a girl he's met for the second time from Club 44 (first meeting was at Club 111 when it existed).  She's got a mother in America, and a father in Kiev.  She's drunk.  He insists they take a taxi instead of driving her car to his apartment.  She refuses, and says she has a special 'gift' for him in the car that she will present when they get in.  He thinks it's oral sex.  She starts the car, and drives off, pulling out a joint, and lighting it up on the way.  My buddy freaks out (he's a nonsmoker, and never takes drugs) she swerves a bit as they argue, two guys from out of NOWHERE jump out, and jump in the car, throwing them into the backseat.  They begin to drive VERY VERY fast through Kiev.  They begin to BEAT the girl, repeatedly, and are driving so fast, the police pull them over.  They had told my American buddy they were undercover, but he didn't know whether to believe it or not until the REAL POLICE IN MARKED CARS saw their id's at the stop, and let them go on.  The girl remained belligerent, the cops continue to beat her around.  They take my buddy into some building past some guy laying in a pool of blood on the floor (maybe beaten too?  Not unusual).  They beat on the girl some more, as she cusses the UKR cops.  My buddy is in a little shock, but begans to laugh inside when they start the ruse:

    "You will be deported!  Not a million dollars will get you out of this one!"  Then one pulls out a peice of paper and begins to ask my buddy what size of the drawings on the profiling sheet is the size of his ear?  He knows at this point it will be ALL about money... (post Orange Revolution, right before), and without going into the whole thing, they took him to 3 atms, 1 didn't work, 4 in sum total, and $1500 and he was a free man.  He never SAW nor HEARD from the girl again (and didn't want to).

8.  A guy with 9 trips to Russia is at O'briens in Kiev for the first time (Kiev). He asks a girl for help in reading directions written in Ukrainian to his apartment.  She offers to "show him", makes a phone call (speaking in Russian), and then they leave together walking down the street.  Two cops stop them, the girl argues with them, they throw her up against the car, and search her.  Then they pull out some pills.  They turn to the man, and threaten to arrest him for drugs.  $1500 for that incident, and scared the guy (reported to me buy a trusted friend and marriage agency owner in Kiev).

9.  Walking through a park near a metro in Kiev at midnight, well lit, other couples are kissing on the bench, I have a bottle of water, and have just missed the midnight cut off time to enter to catch a ride downtown to take care of some business.  Two cops, one plainsclothes, one in civilian clothing step out.  "Passport?" I hand him a passport. "HOTEL, Hotel?"  I explain that I have an apartment.  He immediately reaches into my right pocket and takes my money clip with grivnas.  He then asks me to turn around, searches me, finds the money/passport belt, and opens it, takes $300 in cash, and keep the grivnas (nearly $100).  I turn around and the plains clothes guy puts his hands over his head like I will be cuffed, motions for me to turn and walk away as the fully uniformed cop motions as with a pistol to his head that I'd be shot if I turn around.

10. There are more... way more interesting than that... but this is a start. 

Besides, in some situations, where there is a reason for such an honorable exchange, one never tells the story.  There is something called or expressed as Russian Honor, though some Ukrainians are known to be less than honorable much of the time.  Trust me, there are many more "first hand" experiences than this I could share, but not here, and not now.

[Casanova]

Empiracally?  Nazi Swastikas spray painted on the walls of apartment buildings not so far from the Rus Hotel (spelling?).  News paper articles reporting that those of Middle Eastern descent beaten and assualted in the streets (downtown).  One of which was reporting was a Medical Doctor who had studied in Keiv, and was married to a Ukrainian.  A journalist from "What's On", a premier magazine in Kiev, who is Nigerian (and a VERY good friend of mine) was surrounded by 8-9 police one night... and it was in his words "a racist" problem.  A Chinese friend of mine is with me (teacher at the University there) at another time, and refuses to go into the bar because of skinheads dancing (Mirogorod).  He had been on some major radio program interview to speak about it, and police harrassment stopped after that (for him).  Evidence?  Look at the news articles last year in Kiev.  Want MORE proof?

Check out the U.S. Embassy website, American Citizen Services section and U.S. State Travel Consular sheets TRAVEL WARNINGS and section CRIME.

That's your 'proof'. 

[dorogoyroberto]

[user=639]Casanova[/user] wrote:
"When will I write my novel? "

Would like to echo your own question! Your anecdotes are, to say the least, interesting.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Casanova]

Well there buddy, it's not for the weak of heart, but for the adventurous.  As one Latvian girl (married) told me before embarking on my sojourn to Ukraine, "You must like adventure", and another "you want to learn survival, come and live in my country".  I'd say a certain crooked kind of wisdom comes about after so many experiences   It is a lot of fun, all danger aside   The Orange Revolution was VERY interesting, and I just don't think it can get (I hope not anyway) more intense than that.  It was a wonderful interesting time (scary too) in the history of Ukraine.  There are memories and experiences that are indeed precious amongst the more challenging of the hopes and tragedies that befall one in that ancient city.

    May I add, the warmest greeting (yes GREETING) I have received in my travels thus far (8 countries in the last 9 months) has been entering Russia by train.  They were the warmest (Border Guards) and friendliest, outside of Australia

     Enjoy!

[dorogoyroberto]

[user=639]Casanova[/user] wrote:

"May I add, the warmest greeting (yes GREETING) I  have received in my travels thus far (8 countries in the last 9 months)  has been entering Russia by train.  They were the warmest (Border  Guards) and friendliest, outside of Australia "

My most memorable warm "border greetings" were in Ukraine, Brazil and  Holland. Nothing special happened during my most recent visits to  Russia, but ... this is a bit off-topic. Happy trails!

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Casanova]

We all have unique experiences, and I think that while some are generic, and perhaps more than likely what many others will experience, it also demonstrates that everyone is running on a different schedule and seasons in this motel we are all checking into and out of called "life"   There is a time and season for everything, and that certainly applies to the travels we endeavor in life.  Things DO change, for better or worse, and that's one law that is constant - Change

    Back on topic, I recall dating a beautiful young girl attending university there in Kiev.  Me and a buddy from New York where just out for the sport of it, both dating other girls in long term relationships.  However, it was a warm autum evening, and as anyone who's been on Krataschetyk knows, simply awesome for meeting girls from ALL over Ukraine (particularly during holidays or special events, which are often centered there in this most ancient city).  So me and my buddy went strolling down the street, and just sporting to see how many phone numbers or dates we could get that day...  And we saw two girls with a Ukrianian guy.  Never to be bothered by that, we approached them anyway, realizing it might be her brother, just a friend, or classmate, coworker, etc.  Sure enough, as luck would have it, these girls were only accepting the friendly conversation and beers from this guy's failed attempt to woo and seduce them.  (I wish I could post photos here, I still have a photo of  her on our tour of a church there,,,it shows her from behind, as I wouldn' t want to reveal her identity/invade privacy by posting publicly).   So we got the girls phone numbers, and I met with her on many warm sunny afternoons while my other girlfriend was at work (she was a professional).  She was gorgeous, and had a sexy figure and shape.  She was also very inquisitive, and naturally curious, a bit naive, yet cunning and clever, as often most young FSU girls are in their sometimes innocence

     Then as we walked arm in arm down the street in one of our deeper conversations, the issue of Africans visiting Kiev came up.  I made some rather  misinterpreted remark about blacks (I have friends that are black, one is an often published journalist there in Kiev, very well known) and she clearly stated:

"No no, they are people too.  I was with some African businessman the other day at the cafe together, and walking about Kiev.  They are very interesting and kind people"  Hiding a look of surprise, we walked onward and continued our conversation about many things.  She really was a very kind, feminine, and wonderful girl.

    So there's another case.  I didn't even remember this experience until I revisit this forum, checking that post from DogoryRoberto. 

     Perhaps while racism exists in the FSU, and to different degrees and elements, the reverse is true in that, there are those who, like in America, view a person not based on the color of their skin, or the flag they wave or that of their "homeland", but rather the smile on their face, and the kindness (or lack there of) in their heart.   

 

[Shadow]

Casanova, I remember the don't let anyone know you are foreign routine..... as if that would work. Most people recognize foreigners instantly.

In most of the cases you speak about something actually was wrong. You can call it a bribe or whatever you want, but the police had a reason to ask for money. Some situations are a clear setup to my mind.

As Russians and Ukrainians know, when the police stops you and find anything wrong, you must pay. It is your business to make sure nothing is wrong.

[Casanova]

Shadow, first of all, I agree with RVR to a point, in that, NO, you truly DO NOT have to pay, and trust me, Ukraine is the LAST government that even wants to truly arrest you, as that involves a ton of paperwork, and U.S. Embassy (or whichever the case may be) involvement "officially", and so on.  Secondly, in the situations that I mentioned on the board, the men absolutely WERE NOT IN THE WRONG,,, except being with the wrong GIRL at the wrong PLACE at the wrong TIME, and it was not until that moment of "revelation" that they then *knew* she was into drugs.  Another exception is the buddy and I getting stopped at Metro Hidopark in Kiev.  He was not in error in any way, except the label on his prescription medication was not clear to THEM.  It was legal, however, just an annoying delay, and in truth, the treated us VERY well, though my personal opinion was that it was, as is *sometimes* the case simply because we were *foreigners*.  Sometimes I fit in, exempting the "don't let them know you are foreigner" routine, sometimes I don't, know matter how hard I try, and almost daily if I am out in the FSU (present city of travel) I get physically touched by a beggar of some kind, from the child (8-10 years) to the adult drunk, etc.  So I do understand you on that one, but I, on occassion and on purpose (depending on the situation and circumstances) have blended in enough to pass off as Russian.

    One does not always have to pay.  Technically speaking, it's illegal, but in reality, it's the culture, or a cultural leftover (some would argue heavily remaining phenomena).

    Actually, a recent book by Sorcha Faal has a section on the cultural reality of bribes and even instruction on how to properly go about it.  I should perhaps post it if there is interest.  However, the point is, she's from St. Petersburg, a prolific internet journalist and author, who just gave a seminar recently in New York.  Though I do not agree with all her points of view, I do find some *gems* of wisdom here and there in her work, particularly as I try to read various modern Russian authors.

    Lastly, there is indeed the embassy option for those situations that one may wish to use this option.  In such an extreme and rare occassion that physical threat of death or violence is implied or made, one by U.S. Law is entitled to an emergency U.S. Passport replacement (if needed) and any assistance the U.S. Embassy can give, as soon as possible.  Your U.S. (If American) Senators and other representatives are handy if there is problems further than that, as well as willing and able journalists to publish about the issue.  This is assuming that a local lawyer doesn't do his part, or cannot resolve the issue... not too mention contacts you may have within the government of question in the country you are in.  I agree, there are perhaps some situations of various kinds that foreigners may find themselves in where they are clearly guilty of an offense, and will deal with it in an efficient, quiet, and honorable manner.  However, there are other situations that one should not bend, and thus I explain the other obvious and workable options available.  Overall, it's not super problematic, and it wouldn't stop me (and hasn't) from continuing to travel the FSU.  One just needs to be keenly aware of the reality of this problem, as outlined in part here: http://www.jrnyquist.com/nyquist_2005_0313.htm

     None of us truly experienced, of having spent a lot of time in the FSU can deny this reality, however, how many truly  have a predetermined game plan of A, B, C, and how to properly handle the various dilemas that one may confront?  Some situations I faced clearly were unjustified by the innocence I was personally in at that time.  There are other situations where it was questionable, for example the buddy having a bathroom break by the tree when the toilets were closed, and so on.

     I don't suggest we try to change or fight the culture, I just bring it up as a reality, and the various routes of exit or managing these situations, as anyone traveling far and deep into any FSU city or town will eventually be confronted by it.  Awareness and knowing your options helps one with such a situation.  I am not suggesting any one path of management or responding to such situations, just the various ways and only *some* (a few actually) of the ones I know of first hand, or from close friends.

    In either case, it is a reality that "some" of you may face, perhaps a little further instruction in those options, or "discussion" is appropriate.

[Casanova]

As I said, as provoked to deeper contemplation in another discussion with friends:

"Unprovoked harassment of racial minorities is not uncommon and may occasionally involve violence. Travelers are urged to exercise caution in areas frequented by "skinhead" groups and wherever large groups have gathered. Americans most at risk are those of African, South Asian, or East Asian descent, or those, who because of their complexion, are perceived to be from the Caucasus region or the Middle East. These Americans are also at risk for harassment by police authorities." 

 at travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_2088.html


As the wise one well traveled in the FSU first stated in earlier posts here:

"I wouldn't be KEEN on it".

[Shadow]

The men here were not at fault ??

 

No fault of yours....but sure these were policemen ? I'd file a complaint at the nearest station and see what would happen.

 

 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"So what we have here ?

 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"3 clear mistakes, 2 setups, 1 normal cop behaviour and 2 incidents where the cops were at fault, of which I doubt 1 were cops.

 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"I do not doubt the cops are fishing for bribes. But like all sharks they sort the weaker fish. A cop will stop an old Lada, but not a brand new Mercedes. He knows the Mercedes driver can cost him his job. When you come out of a club after midnight or walk trhough the park alone chances are to get robbed in any city in the world.

 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8" 

[Casanova]

No fault of yours....but sure these were policemen ? I'd file a complaint at the nearest station and see what would happen. - NO ONE WOULD ACCEPT THE COMPLAINT   GOOD LUCK WITH FILING AGAINST POLICE WITH POLICE.

 

Remember, I clearly state in earlier posts that this is just SOME of the stories, if you want to get nitty gritty and point by point, TRUST ME, I haven't even gotten started.  These are just examples for "case studies".  There are more, from personal experience, and those of friends (expats and tourists in the FSU), and the U.S. State Travel page is ACCURATE on these accounts and incidences, especially THE TURKEY DROP which is VERY VERY COMMON in Ukraine.  You should ALL be aware of this, and know how to handle it properly!  Be Aware, not scared, but just AWARE and KNOW how you will handle it. Simple.

[Shadow]

Casanova I am very aware and have at times seen it happen. So far I was lucky enough to avoid this.

I made several pics of the Moscow underground stations. Just a couple of weeks later I saw the story of a guy who did the same and had to pay a bribe to keep his camera, but had to delete the pics. I am pretty sure some militia saw me making pics, but they never even approached me.

I have no problem in paying a birbe to smooth an unpleasant situation. But I prefer to look unbribeable. :cool:

[Admin]

But I prefer to look unbribeable. :cool:

Like this?  :cool:

[LatinSwede]

As for trying not to look foreign, that does not work for me.  As soon as I leave the apartment everybody knows I'm not local.  Kind of like being in Japan.

I'm very wary of strangers approaching me.  Like one time walking dow a mainstreet some older 40 something guy was in one of those building under passes underpasses saying, "come here for a moment".  I kept walking by because it looked like he was trying to set me up.  It might have been an attempt at the wallet scam.  The other nuissance is somebody following me with their hand out, or women trying to sell me "companionship".

[Charles]

I hope these posts aren't scaring people away.  As someone who has made several lengthy trips to Ukraine, and have never been hassled in Ukraine, the above posts have been quite interesting and are valuable tips to avoid being shaken down.   I certainly agree that trying to "blend in" is often impossible to achieve, but it is worth the effort as the above posts show that foreigners do stand out like a sore thumb.   The other thing I would recommend is staying in public places, and bring your lady with you.  After all, that's why you're there in the first place.   Another thread that ran through Casonova's posts was most of his anecdotes involved situations where he was with a buddy.   Since the foreigners stick out, a couple of foreign men is more likely to attract unwarranted attention.  When I first visited St. Petersburg, then Leningrad, in 1988, me and my American client were mugged on our first night there.  So not bringing your friends along may be good advice.  And Casonova's anecdotes illustrate the importance of having your passport/visa/entry card with you at all times, especially in the big cities where there is a large police presence.   Fortunately, the smaller cities, such as Simferopol, the Crimean capital, don't have a cop at every corner, and you can generally walk freely around at all hours without getting hassled.    Finally, these experiences illustrate the importance of learning some Russian before you go on your trip.

The main thing is just to be cautious and careful, as you would if you were travelling here. 

[Shadow]

Actually more like this

[Casanova]

Great advice Charles.  I had been drugged within my first three weeks over there, and robbed.  I had been robbed in the latter months of the mobile phone, though that's not so uncommon.  It may be wise to simply have an extra one around, and actually, if one goes IN before 11 p.m. or midnight, you will have a less likely chance to encounter such simple robberies or thefts.  It does help to know some Russian, and you get a lot more respect if you do.  Of course, if you have a good UW or RW with you, your probably not going to have hardly any problems at all, or very few in that regard.  Don't trust the gypsy kids on Kratschetyk, as they will have you looking one way, while another may come up and snatch your camera, or watch.  And NEVER let your taxi driver pull over and pick up other people... if he starts to do that, just hop out, and grab another car, which is SUPER easy to do in Kiev (and the normal way of getting around, predominantly, besides public transport).