Russian Soul..what is it?

[SANDRO43]

Filet Of Sole.   Delicious.

That looks fried. Personally, I prefer sole meunière .

[OlgaH]

This notion of soul is clearly not scientific and so clearly it's not possible to have a precise conversation about it.  

Yes, if one is exposed to a set of historical influences/geography/people/office/sounds/whatever it will have its affect on the mind.  Naturally, if people's lives are exposed to the same influences it biases them in their emotional life in similar ways creating Jung's collective unconscious.

Shostakovich,

I did not have even such thoughts as to put you between something, more over I don't know what cat fight you are talking about   Never mind. It is just a trifle  

I would rather agree that "soul" is more the theosophical subject.  

Earlie in my posts I mentioned that I look at the term "soul of nation" like at mentality. I also drew a parallel between the terms culture and mentality in my previous post. Formation of a national mentality of course doesn't happen by itself  but under influence of different factors. And the difference between mentalities of different nations is quite evident. You of course have read the studies about influence of genes not only on human health and physical look but also personality (behavior, intellectual, artistic, physical abilities and so on) and of course we both know the debates still are going on   No way I can give a positive answer but if genes have their influence on formation of human personality I would not be in hurry to deny Jung's hypothesis  

The human brain is really a unique "masterpiece" of mother nature and there are many questions about its faculties that I think will be under studying for a long period along with the questions of genetics  

When you step across the boarder from France to Switzerland you don't encounter a new soul.

As we both mentioned it could depend on geographical location. So maybe the closer to each other the easier way of interaction.  

[OlgaH]

Shostakovich,

In your previous post you mentioned the "Window to Europe" by Peter the great. When he opened that "window" Russia was far far behind the Europe. Russia was really very closed country and interaction with other cultures was limited and it had its impact on the country's developing. The reforms by Peter the Great were implemented on the blood and bones of Russian people because of the people's opposition and the Peter the Great was even compared to Antichrist.

[Shostakovich]

No-no I am a great fan of Jung: part scientist, part mystic.  Saith Protagoras: "Man is the measure of all things".  An article of faith for me is the notion that all things are knowable through pure perception alone.  It is a Christian conviction: "Behold the kingdom of God lies within you".  But alas, all perceptions are not pure, sadly, not even those of the infallible pope.  Science to the rescue and thank (God?) for that.  We probably won't thank the church for science in any event.  But religion of science too has long gone.  Gone are the days when we think that, once the mystery of the atom is solved, that the universe becomes a problem for the interested student to solve.  Solly Challie.  Science now is technie, solving practical problems.  There is a French fellow named Jean Gebser who has proposed an 'integrative awareness', melding an older, more perceptive mode with objective science.  It hearkens to the ancient understanding of India, with its concept of Samadhi - where subject and object merge.  I'm calling this shot - forget all the hoopla about google, the information age and such.  You Russians may occupy yourselves with the Russian soul.  The conditions that created it is all water under the bridge to me.  I don't care and am not going to wring hands over it. What's done is done.  All this hyper-ventillating about it does nothing.  Look to the future.  The future of the human race is in this integrative awareness.  It always was.  All the rest produces nothing more than neurotic buffooons, who, with their shard of understanding, think they can rule the world.       

[OlgaH]

You Russians may occupy yourselves with the Russian soul.

Look to the future.  

 

Schostakovich, it is not only we, Russians, who occupy ourselves with our Russian "soul". There are plenty of works regarding "souls" of different nations. That says the nations are concerned about their national identities. A nation dies when loses its identity ... Preservation of the best helps to move forward as there no future without a past. But the preserved best expitience of a nation will help to move forward  if the nation first of all has a clear self-consciousness along with internal and external harmony.

  

[Ludmila]

The article "east-west report", posted by Olga up the thread, makes interesting and informative reading, clarifying and throwing light on the problem we are discussing. Highly commendable. I should say, I would recommend it not only to English speakers, but to the  Russians and people from the FSU ,who are  interested in  East/ West differences, who are prone to  observation and analysis of what is going around them.

Thank you, Olga!

[Shostakovich]

Schostakovich, it is not only we, Russians, who occupy ourselves with our Russian "soul". There are plenty of works regarding "souls" of different nations. That says the nations are concerned about their national identities. A nation dies when loses its identity ... Preservation of the best helps to move forward as there no future without a past. But the preserved best expitience of a nation will help to move forward  if the nation first of all has a clear self-consciousness along with internal and external harmony.

Here is where I disagree.  No one speaks of an American soul or a French soul.  They just call it American History or French History.  I am not certain why, when it is Russian, we should call it a soul and not just Russian History.   Soul is a term from religion it does not seem to belong when speaking about a people as a secular entity.  It's true that to understand the future you must know the past but you can dwell on it too much.  That is the thing, Russian soul just trumps it up and inflates it more than is its due.  It seems strange and suspicious. 

[OlgaH]

Here is where I disagree.  No one speaks of an American soul or a French soul.  They just call it American History or French History.  I am not certain why, when it is Russian, we should call it a soul and not just Russian History.   Soul is a term from religion it does not seem to belong when speaking about a people as a secular entity.  It's true that to understand the future you must know the past but you can dwell on it too much.  That is the thing, Russian soul just trumps it up and inflates it more than is its due.  It seems strange and suspicious.  

and here is where I disagree  

As I already wrote the term soul of a nation or national soul came to Russian philosophy from European philosophy and in European philosophy it is more a substitute for culture and mentality (two in one). The term mentality also came from European philosophy. Though Ralph Emerson (an American philosopher of the 19th century used the term mentality when he combined psychological and metaphysical problems of a society mood the term mentality gained a more scientific understanding and popularity when it was introduced by Marc Bloch, Lucien Levy-Bruhl and Lucien Febvre  as common perception, comprehension and understanding of the world by members of one social-political unity (in such case we mean a nation). So I would not look at the term soul as at something religious especially in the historical and cultural aspects.  

Yes, it is true that the term "Soul of Russia" nowadays is misrepresented when it is used in everyday life and it is distorted due to commercializing. Two examples are on this board by the members when a woman was covering her shortcomings using the term "Russian soul" and like in this thread when a woman said "it cant be described in words." Of course it can not be described in words on the base of superficial knowledge and when the most of Russians (actually the most) speaks about Russian soul it really can be easily downed to "primitive soul of Russia" as Oswald Spengler wrote  "for us... that lies behind dirt, music, vodka, meekness, and a strange melancholy."    

[OlgaH]

Regarding a concerns of the national future there is wonderful book "Bushido: The Soul of Japan" by Inazo Nitobe. Where he tells that Bushido is not just a way of samurai but the whole conception of the spiritual life of Japan.
Though Inazo Nitobe notices that with westernizing of Japan the Bushido will fall into oblivion "and even the name will be forgotten" but its "invisible presence will be still soaring along Japan land" his words sounds more like a concern and hope than a positive look into the spiritual and cultural future of Japan.     

[Shostakovich]

Regarding a concerns of the national future there is wonderful book "Bushido: The Soul of Japan" by Inazo Nitobe. Where he tells that Bushido is not just a way of samurai but the whole conception of the spiritual life of Japan.
Though Inazo Nitobe notices that with westernizing of Japan the Bushido will fall into oblivion "and even the name will be forgotten" but its "invisible presence will be still soaring along Japan land" his words sounds more like a concern and hope than a positive look into the spiritual and cultural future of Japan.     

Though great men and women from 100 years ago use the word soul to talk about the particular mindset of their country its use seems debatable to me.  We should not be bothered with scholarly pendantry of whether soul, is in fact the right term.  Some lead, most follow and so it is natural that there is a certain quality of mind that pervades a given region.  Anything more mystifies it too much for me, though in fact perhaps, in days of old people had an almost religious feeling about their land.  In any event as you point out in with your example of Japan, those days are gone.  The old culture of Japan is gone, that is the subject the poet Mishima delt with.  No-one in Germany calls it the 'Fatherland' any more.  Maybe there are a few hold-outs who still think of Mother-Russia, but my guess is you'd be hard pressed to find them among the <30 set.  For better or worse, it really is a different age.  I think that older mentality was produced through generations on the same land.  Perhaps genetic selection combined with a mentality that was refined through generations experiencing the same geographic and cultural influences produced the deep sentiments you discuss.  International commerce and our internet has reshuffled the deck.  As we move to the future it is important to keep the flame of these older cultures alive as it is important to integrate their best products into our new mindset.  At the same time it's important to avoid sentimentality and, in fact, some cultures did not produces as much as others, though that too can be a question of perception.  It took along time for Europe to recognize the importance of India.  So one must keep an open mind.     

[Seeker]

Though great men and women from 100 years ago use the word soul to talk about the particular mindset of their country its use seems debatable to me.  We should not be bothered with scholarly pendantry of whether soul, is in fact the right term.  Some lead, most follow and so it is natural that there is a certain quality of mind that pervades a given region.  Anything more mystifies it too much for me, though in fact perhaps, in days of old people had an almost religious feeling about their land...   ...So one must keep an open mind.     

The word "soul" can be used on so many levels.  I am not religious in the classical sense, but the term "soul" is just as useful to a philosopher and a poet.  As long as the intention is clear, why be afraid of the word?

[OlgaH]

International commerce and our internet has reshuffled the deck.  As we move to the future it is important to keep the flame of these older cultures alive as it is important to integrate their best products into our new mindset. 

It is not just the internet it is also the Mass Media. American intellectuals right now are concerned about the crises of cultural values in US. The same in Russia. And I agree about integrating the best...

[Shostakovich]

It is not just the internet it is also the Mass Media. American intellectuals right now are concerned about the crises of cultural values in US. The same in Russia. And I agree about integrating the best...

Yes, also the mass media and it is not just intellectuals who are concerned about values and, on the other hand intellectuals have seen this storm coming for a long time.  But it's a crisis of values, plain and simple, not those derived from culture.  Culture is not the key thing here as culture spins, often invisibly, around those with vision.  That is why this cultural soul biz seems over-blown to me.  It's the ones with vision who create values, not collectives: yes, Buddha, Jesu & Co.  But when one decouples ones life from that vision one is left as, Nietzsche has said, like a ship on a stormy sea.  That's the key thing - no one knows what life is for, and most are not up to the task of deciding it.  Value-creation: it's not the work of the average joe.  It takes real vision to go beyond and 'eye for an eye' or to advocate the turning of the cheek.   In the vacuum of values we find only pleasure and power.  Pleasure is conditioned on pain and not satisfactory.  Power is ephemeral and relative.  Hence there is no core in modern & secular life.  But the modern and secular life came from the world of religion and the vaunted soul and old world culture.  If that were so satisfying, no one would have had any motivation to move beyond it.  It is like, if the old agrarian world, close to nature, etc., were so satisfying, why did everyone move in droves to the cities for factory jobs?  After the 20th century, my view is that you'd be a fool to conclude that the modern world is working well.  What's next?  There is much head scratching about that.  There has to be more to it than treating each other nicely as this only creates a pleasant life but does not answer the life/death questions that are most fundemental.  The highest ideal these days is to have the continuous steam of tasty maidens, Beemers, McMansions, Reggiano Parmesan cheese, Veuve Cliciquot, etc.  I am certainly not against enjoying life -- but it's bankrupt.   

[Shadow]

There always seems to be a need for people to separate themselves from others by showing 'class'.
In the past this was done by 'aristocracy' which one could marry in to or be appointed by Royal approval. As this has largely gone out of fashion due to the diminishing value, people have shifted to create çulture' which surrounds them with expensive goods and similar expensive pastimes.
With the general raise in reachability of this people are worried that there is nothing 'special' enough and there for point at old cultural values.

In reality it does not matter what you enjoy, as long as you manage to enjoy your life. The things you enjoy can be enjoyed both with and without large financial means, as a performance of a local band can be as thrilling as being live at the New Year concert in Vienna (for which attendance the Met is a plebeian crowd).

There is no higher culture or higher people. There is however a large amount of snobism among people who wish to show themselves better as others.

[OlgaH]

Culture is the aggregate of all the processes of a society life. It is the aggregate of ideas, images and material objects, valuation criteria existed in society. It is a system of all forms of human activities.  It includes all the aspects as morals, ethics, religion, education, upbringing, art, science, economics, politics, principles of law, ecology, technology, industry, communication and so on. 

The highest ideal these days is to have the continuous steam of tasty maidens, Beemers, McMansions, Reggiano Parmesan cheese, Veuve Cliciquot, etc.  I am certainly not against enjoying life -- but it's bankrupt.

Agree. 

PS.
Have you seen the last commercial add by "Burger King" - "This baby boy was born yesterday..." I have only one word - retardation...

[Shostakovich]

Culture is the aggregate of all the processes of a society life. It is the aggregate of ideas, images and material objects, valuation criteria existed in society. It is a system of all forms of human activities.  It includes all the aspects as morals, ethics, religion, education, upbringing, art, science, economics, politics, principles of law, ecology, technology, industry, communication and so on. 

Yes, but some factors dominate in this equation.  My suggestion is that culture whirls around its most impressive subjects. 
 

PS.
Have you seen the last commercial add by "Burger King" - "This baby boy was born yesterday..." I have only one word - retardation...

I suspect I might agree with you.  Fast food can provide a nice convenience.  At the same time, when a person frequents the fast food parlor it now marks them in the same way that cigarette smoking identifies folks without a lot of sense.  It is not surprising that fast-food adverts are constructed to appeal to retards, a good share of the patrons of these restaurants are.

[OlgaH]

Yes, but some factors dominate in this equation. 

Religion and politics always play not last role in that aggregate.

My suggestion is that culture whirls around its most impressive subjects. 
 

Yes if to consider the term culture in more narrow content.

[JR]

.  The highest ideal these days is to have the continuous steam of tasty maidens, Beemers, McMansions, Reggiano Parmesan cheese, Veuve Cliciquot, etc.  I am certainly not against enjoying life -- but it's bankrupt.   

What you wrote is eloquent Shosty. But I would like to point out that there is nothing new under the sun. Every generation that has gone before us has acted the same as we are today. Did the Romans want tasty maidens? Did their ideals encompass fine chariots, beautiful homes, the best foods and wine? I would dare venture to say they did. How about the Babylonians? Or the Egyptians, were they really any different at the end of the day?
No, we live in a world which goes full circle. Humans continue to be humans no matter the the date on the calendar says.

[Shostakovich]

What you wrote is eloquent Shosty. But I would like to point out that there is nothing new under the sun. Every generation that has gone before us has acted the same as we are today. Did the Romans want tasty maidens? Did their ideals encompass fine chariots, beautiful homes, the best foods and wine? I would dare venture to say they did. How about the Babylonians? Or the Egyptians, were they really any different at the end of the day?
No, we live in a world which goes full circle. Humans continue to be humans no matter the the date on the calendar says.

Very true, especially about the eloquence.   

As for nothing new - I'd offer a modified assessment of that.  The tasty things were always wanted, in that you are right.  I read recently that a good share of people of Irish decent can trace their lineage to a certain warlord, I've forgotten his name, who was, especially prolific with maidens.  Anyway, the lower brain stem will always exert its voice.  But the thing that makes people different from the animals is their capacity for self reflection, but in that there is always a choice - to hold the animal in check for some other purpose or to let it run free.  This can be a complicated subject as when you strangle the beast, the angel may die with it.  To up the snobbery ante, also, as Plato says, perhaps most are governed by appetites as opposed to purposes.  Nevertheless, the thing that is different today is that the governor is off.  You do not have to have a long memory to understand that life has changed quite a bit in the 20th century.  Perhaps it is because I live in sin city, Seattle, with the highest % unchurched in the nation, but I suspect the mood here is quite similar in most cities and the rural areas will eventually follow.  There was a culture of morality, based on religion and government, that many bridled against, yet certainly it held sway.  That has diminished sharply.  With the exception of criminal behavior, morality has become provisional, with no absolute arbiter.  There is much less consistency regarding values.  Just look at the debate over gay marriage.  30-40 years ago it would have been a laughing stock everywhere.  You can say that there always was a group who lived according to their own law.  Thankfully this has been so as these have been the ones who have been most creative.  The thing that is new, and has been developing over the last 100 or so years, is the lack of a widespread moral sense.  As noted, this is not necessarily negative as freedom can present opportunity for growth.  However, I suspect for most it is only confusing and when there is a lack of clear boundaries or one's own developed moral sense, then it is the animal that most often decides and pleasure and power rule.  I agree with you that the animal tendencies have always been the same - these days they are not held in check and in fact often celebrated.

[Shadow]

Shostakovich, when you remeber that Plato in hist time saw a lot of homosexual happenings, and this was acceptef as normal, one should be careful bringing up the Ancients to defend low morality of today.
That morals are different is a result of the freedom the generation of which you are part has requested. To think back and post factum find the strategy of the ancestors better is just a reminder of old age coming, with a speck of wisdom.

What has become different over the last 100 years is the continuing repression of the freedom to speak one's mind. Where freedom of speech is often mentioned as a great good, just the contact with a society like Russia can show how much this freedom has been impeded by the obligation to cover one's opinion in clouds of diminishing words.
Another thing is the change between teaching people facts, and teaching them opinions, which has led to a far more serious way of propaganda as the facts seem subordinate to the power of media and the screaming minority.

To turn this around, one should strip all the hype, double standards and soft-coating from society. And I doubt this or any next generation is ready to handle that.

[OlgaH]

And I doubt this or any next generation is ready to handle that.

Next generation that will be preoccupied  with a size of cheeseburger more than with concerns about the causes of the declining of Great Rome Empire and why not less powerful Egyptian Civilization shared the same destiny and why Babylonia Civilization exists only in the history books most likely will not be able to handle anything.

To control society is actually much easy when it lives by instincts. And modern powerful media idolizing "food, sex and violence" is doing its work...  

Will be mankind heading to "renaissance" or to declining? What will the human interests be when such terms as "humanism", "humanitarian", "humanities", "humanist"  will be only in dictionaries?

[Shostakovich]

Well, it is not only the current generation that has chesseburger size in view ...  I've been thinking about Russian soul.  My intuition tells me there is something to it, but, being from the US, don't really get it.  Intellectual arguments are all well and fine but in this arena, music supplies the best means to tell what is in the Russian spirit.  You Russians tell me if there is any Russian spirit represented in these recordings.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXyLy8XKBts&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXyLy8XKBts&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1gmmpsVmI[/youtube]

From my view, this may be one of the best things ever:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1mz0QP2Qug&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjvTTfbpWjY&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OtqABpuV-s&feature=related[/youtube] Airplanes and bombs!

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_5qO8bqmQU&feature=related[/youtube] The Knock!

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C8GguURkZY&feature=related[/youtube]

[Boethius]

The Rustavi Choir and the piece they are performing are both Georgian.

[Shostakovich]

A part of the FSU -- still informing the Russian soul

[OlgaH]

You Russians tell me if there is any Russian spirit represented in these recordings.

The song "Roads" (lyrics by L. Oshanin, music by A. Novikov) was written in 1945, and it is written with so distinctive Russian melody. It is very close to the folk genre by its harmony and lyrics as well. If you have noticed there so much lyrical digression in Russian literature devoted to roads, steppes... the immense space of Russia and a person's thoughts that are engendered by the mother nature's environmentю The person is also part of that space  therefore you can see a parallels for example between a hero and a tree or clouds and their similar thoughts in Russian literature and poetry...

There is fatalism, home-sickness and hope so typical to Russian in the song "Roads".

Roads...
Dust and Fog.
Cold, concerns
And steppe weeds.
You can not know
Your destiny.
Maybe you will fold your wings
In the steppes...

String Quartet No 8 in C Minor (written in 1960 if I remember the year correctly) by Shostakovitch is one of his autobiographical scores. It is not just his auto-epitaph but the sorrowful auto-epitaph of generations that went through the deprivation, pain, bitterness, humiliation during the totalitarian regime and through the ordeals of the war. The summary of the bitter experience.

The Rustavi Choir is Georgian.