Guys here under 35

[Misha]

Uh, yeah, they in fact do. 

Yes, they will write to average looking older guys in other countries all the time.... I am sure you also have some oceanfront property to sell me in Saskatchewan as well...

[dbneeley]

Yes, they will write to average looking older guys in other countries all the time.... I am sure you also have some oceanfront property to sell me in Saskatchewan as well...

Misha,

Although the numbers are far smaller since a woman engaged in this sort of activity faces even more of a social stigma than the men do, it does in fact happen.  I have known at least five cases myself--two women who married men from the FSU and three in other countries. That does not include many who have married men from countries their own family came from originally, such as some whose families originated in India and who married due to arranged marriages with other Indian people from "back home."

You seem to be making the same sort of generalization as SJ--based upon imperfect knowledge. Congratulations.

David

[Boethius]

Why do you assume SJ is average looking?  Again, I can see that you don't understand women very well.

What attracts a woman is very individual.  Far more individual, and far more varied, than what in a woman attracts a man.  Women are far more likely to read a profile, and be attracted to the "personality" she perceives exists there than is a man.

I've known plenty of women who have looked south for dates, and often, the men they end up with are a decade or more older.  These are usually women over 35.  Again, it's about the size of your net.

[Boethius]

Although the numbers are far smaller since a woman engaged in this sort of activity faces even more of a social stigma than the men do, it does in fact happen. 

The social stigma is identical in both cases - you are not attractive enough to find a local mate.  However, I think this is also a generational thing.  Older individuals are more likely to find hooking up via the internet as "strange" than are those under, say, 35.  My teenagers  spend most of their evenings online, where they hook up their webcams and chat with groups of friends.  For them, this form of meeting others will be natural, perhaps at some point, even the norm.

[Misha]

Although the numbers are far smaller since a woman engaged in this sort of activity faces even more of a social stigma than the men do, it does in fact happen.  I have known at least five cases myself--two women who married men from the FSU and three in other countries.

Yes, there are cases, but to analyze your five cases, we would need to know how old they were and how attractive they were. The motivation will be pretty much the same as for the men IMHO: getting the kind of man they cannot easily get at home.

You seem to be making the same sort of generalization as SJ--based upon imperfect knowledge. Congratulations.

The examples that you give do not discredit what I am saying. People will look overseas only if they can't find what they are looking for at home. I still stand by my statement that young (i.e. younger than 35) very attractive women in most of North America or Europe will not have a difficult time finding quality men to date. They will have no need to active search men out across the planet.... 

[Misha]

What attracts a woman is very individual.  Far more individual, and far more varied, than what in a woman attracts a man.  Women are far more likely to read a profile, and be attracted to the "personality" she perceives exists there than is a man.

I see you are affirming the old canard that women don't look for attractive men. In my experience, all things being equal, most Russian women will go for the attractive man. Even when all things are not equal, many will still go for beauty above all else. Fortunately for most men, there are many eligible women to date in Russia 

[Blues Fairy]

People will look overseas only if they can't find what they are looking for at home.

Assuming you are correct, such people, before looking abroad, must have scoured their entire country for suitable partners, with no success, and then started looking abroad.  In reality, however,  most of them will have at best tried their local neighborhood and circle of friends and colleagues before turning to online dating - i.e. a very narrow unrepresentative selection.  But once one turns to online dating, why should one be restricted to one's own country, especially if one knows the language?
 
So you cannot really say they CANNOT find a partner in their home country; they just bypassed this limitation and went from local to worldwide directly. 

[Ade]

SJ,

Forgive us for being cynical, but if you told that tale to me on a plane I would not believe you.

I'm not saying its rubbish, but generally speaking anything that departs so far from "the norm"
is either true  or a complete fabrication.

Unfortunately a lot of men choose to "distance" themselves from what they perceive as the "wierdos'S"
by creating elaborate tales of how they met their wife from Siberia "by accident" in order to feel
morally superior to the vast majority who use dating websites. What makes your tale "extrodinary" is
why any woman would go to such lengths to meet one individual they know nothing about?

You are being critical of men who use FSU dating sites to establish contact and class them (in the majority)
as being wierd or obsessive yet you don't see anything wrong with a woman, who by her own admission
had no problem meeting men in her own country going to some strange lengths to secure contact with you?
...

Dude, you really have to work on being more concise.

And yes, I can understand that you or others may choose not to believe mine or my wife's story; your choice, and no skin off of my nose either way and I'm certainly not going to expend any effort to convince you otherwise.

And for the record, I'm not "distancing myself" from the weird people because of some sense of moral superiority here. There are no morals involved in this. But weird, or abnormal behaviour, is just that. If someone chooses to ignore the available women in their country because of some strange (and generally untrue) preconceptions about them then that is weird. If they focus all their attention on women from a foreign country also because of some strange preconceptions, that's also weird. If he lives in his mother's basement and makes up stories to a RW on a MOB site, definitely weird.  This really isn't rocket science. If a guy is just dating and has an open mind as to where he dates and is just looking for a partner irrespective of her location; not at all weird (perhaps that differentiation will get through now..?)

And if the MOB guys want to think that the rationalisations and motivations of going to a MOB agency in the FSU explicitly hunting for a foreign wife are the same as mine and those of my wife; well, you're welcome to your opinion.

[Ade]

The examples that you give do not discredit what I am saying. People will look overseas only if they can't find what they are looking for at home. I still stand by my statement that young (i.e. younger than 35) very attractive women in most of North America or Europe will not have a difficult time finding quality men to date. They will have no need to active search men out across the planet.... 

Actually in my experience, for a lot of women in Europe these days, it doesn't matter much where you live in Europe. Travel is quick and cheap and relocation is relatively painless for the educated (or even for the not so educated). I've lived and worked in 4 countries in Europe. I could have easily dated women in half a dozen different Western European countries that I didn't live in if I wanted the extra hassle of the travel. It's not so much that women actively search for men in one specific country that's not their own, they are just open to where they search, after all, quality men (AKA normal guys) (and women) exist everywhere, so why not...

[Misha]

Assuming you are correct, such people, before looking abroad, must have scoured their entire country for suitable partners, with no success, and then started looking abroad.

No, one city suffices. A woman who is not attracting young and attractive in Montreal will know that she is not likely to have any better luck in Calgary. Likewise, a woman in St. Petersburg who isn't finding any good candidates is  not likely to think that Vladivostok will be her dating paradise. The same goes for men. It is at this point that some men and women will look at other options. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are rare (hence their status as exceptions). Yet, if you were to listen to couples, you would think that every second couple just happened to bump into each other on the street and of course they were all dating Nobel-winning models back home 

In reality, however,  most of them will have at best tried their local neighborhood and circle of friends and colleagues before turning to online dating - i.e. a very narrow unrepresentative selection.  But once one turns to online dating, why should one be restricted to one's own country, especially if one knows the language?

Especially if that other country is seen as having certain advantages that cannot be found back home.... This is not a bad thing per se in my opinion, but it cannot be discounted either.
 

So you cannot really say they CANNOT find a partner in their home country; they just bypassed this limitation and went from local to worldwide directly. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am just saying that one must acknowledge the limitation that was bypassed 

[Misha]

Actually in my experience, for a lot of women in Europe these days, it doesn't matter much where you live in Europe. 

How many Norwegian women will move to Russia for love? Some might do it for a very lucrative job, but women doing it for love I would wager are rare to nonexistent. The fact of the matter is that Sweden and France and Great Britain are relatively comparable in economic status and development. Arkhangelsk isn't. Yes, it is a nice city (I did visit it), but I wouldn't want to live there... Russia is not Europe, though part of it is in the European peninsula.

[Blues Fairy]

No, one city suffices. A woman who is not attracting young and attractive in Montreal will know that she is not likely to have any better luck in Calgary. Likewise, a woman in St. Petersburg who isn't finding any good candidates is  not likely to think that Vladivostok will be her dating paradise.

How can we know she has no luck in a city as big as St. Pete if she has only bumped into, say, 0.1% of its eligible male population?  The levels bypassed were as follows: from local (100-200 men she actually gets to meet out of all St.Pete) - bypassing citywide - bypassing nationwide --> directly worldwide.  Nobody can tell how many suitable choices she has bypassed on the citywide and nationwide levels.

[Misha]

Nobody can tell how many suitable choices she has bypassed on the citywide and nationwide levels.

True, but the people who are less daring tend to settle for less IMHO much more quickly. My wife was quite daring in the eyes of her friend as she was actively seeking potential candidates on line using the mamba network (singles.ru). She knew what she was looking for and fortunately she considered that she found it when she met me. However, she was online for a year and came to the conclusion that there weren't any good prospects for her in her city and for this reason she agreed to take the risk and move to Canada in spite of all her friends and relatives warning her of the dangers of becoming a sex slave in the West 

[Ade]

How many Norwegian women will move to Russia for love? Some might do it for a very lucrative job, but women doing it for love I would wager are rare to nonexistent. The fact of the matter is that Sweden and France and Great Britain are relatively comparable in economic status and development. Arkhangelsk isn't. Yes, it is a nice city (I did visit it), but I wouldn't want to live there... Russia is not Europe, though part of it is in the European peninsula.

Oh, but it does happen. I even know a very attractive Norwegian girl that's just got married to an American (and he's moving to Norway). But the point is that women these days are very open about looking for partners outside their borders not necessarily because they can't find someone at home but because they don't really care particularly where they are from. As opposed to those males so obsessed with the FSU that the wives they are hunting for have to be from the FSU because of some (weird) preconceived notion that they are somehow superior to the women at home.

[Boethius]

I see you are affirming the old canard that women don't look for attractive men.

I have been a woman a heck of a lot longer than you will ever be.  I also have girlfriends. 

In my experience, all things being equal, most Russian women will go for the attractive man. Even when all things are not equal, many will still go for beauty above all else. Fortunately for most men, there are many eligible women to date in Russia 

But attraction is very subjective.  Furthermore, age is a factor.  A girl of 18 will be attracted to something a woman of 25 will not be.  A woman at 35, or 45, will be attracted to something else.

What is attractive to a woman is different from what is attractive to a man.  Henry Kissinger was considered a sex symbol when he was Secretary of State.  Madeline Albright, of equal brain power and comparable physical attractiveness, was not.

[Blues Fairy]

However, she was online for a year and came to the conclusion that there weren't any good prospects for her in her city and for this reason she agreed to take the risk and move to Canada

And I know a bunch of RW who have dated internationally but ended up marrying local guys and are living happily.  The local pool(s) do not automatically get excluded once one goes worldwide; but the probability of one's finding a partner locally decreases the wider one casts the net, naturally.  That says nothing about the quality/suitability of the candidates on the bypassed levels; any conclusions of the sort would be based on nothing but anecdotal evidence.

[neo]

SJ,

Yes I support your argument there is truth in that there is danger in this becoming a blind obession for some men, and I have never bought into the agency hyperbole that Russian women are somehow superior to Swedish, Italian or American Women. I have dated women from England, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, France, Italy, America, Ukraine, Russia, Japan, New Zealand. Women are women the world over, the cultural differences only make up a percentage of their overall character and you are just as likely to meet a girl with Bad Character in St Petersburg as you are in Stavenger and good character also. For example I think Muscovites share more in common with NYC / London girls than girls from provincial towns, Odessa girls remind me a lot of women i met in Las Vegas, and I have met nice college girls in Sweden that are as intellectually interesting and attractive as Russian girls and share the same family values.

So to pursue women purely on the basis of all FSU women being superior is a gross misjudgement. However from experience of dating in many countries the odds of meeting a good LTR match (for me at least, I am quite fussy) is pure roulette wheel odds, and generally the western dating scene is not awash with young women of the calibre found in the RW agencies.

I'm realistic and this is entirely because young western women already have a good economic situation free of corruption and hardship and a plentiful supply of willing suitors which makes them in no rush to settle into a relationship and just as fussy (if not more so) when it comes to partner criteria's.

The simple fact is that men are lazy, going to a FSU agency and having a pick of a dozen or more attractive, educated women who are attentive and as willing to pursue you as you are them makes it an easier ride than putting the leg-work and effort into dealing with her western counterpart.

I think its a bit of misdirection to start suggesting that WW look abroad as well, they certainly don't do so in the sheer volume of EE women as they have extensive opportunities already without needing a man for support, the reality for EE women is that looking for a foreign husband kills lots of birds with one stone, it solves their immediate economic hardship, it allows them to choose a partner who they perceive will be more faithful and doting than a domestic man (why else would he travel round the globe), and gives them a better set of options for them and their children if it all goes wrong.

EE women being immensely pragmatic are willing to trade/concede desirabe attribute points such as age/looks/location in order to secure a better deal overall, this is something a WW doesn't have to consider as she can usually get a well paid job and provide her own apartment, car etc and just cruise bars/clubs picking up dates whenever she feels the need until some chinless henry comes along and provides her with a lifestyle marriage.

Dubai has a great economy, the domestic men it has to be said have the same "alpha male" traits of russian men yet the women aren't flocking to the exit, that leads me to suggest women are more prepared to put up with substandard men than they are economic hardship.

Norway of course is something like the 3rd best economy/standard of living on earth, so its no accident girls in Norway rarely look for any sort of international partner, in Denmark a recent survey carried out showed over 87% of women would not even consider a relationship to a non danish man, even a Swede, again a strong protective social economy gives women protection to be independent making a man an accessory not a requirement.

So i don't believe any woman from Norway, Denmark, Sweden would trade their first world social care for a 3rd world economic system that is clearly broken even to the domestic population for something as trivial as "love". (unless of course she is a wierdo or can't get a date in her own country )

Sorry thats not concise again!

[Gator]

I think you miss his point.  He doesn't think the women are weirdos.

And why would SJ not think them weirdos if RW take the same gender relative steps as the many WM he describes as weirdos?  And many RW do express that they have given up on RM (although I am sure the door is open to the right RM).

SJ stigmatizes the MOB method of introducing boy and girl.  Thus, RW-AM couples who met via an agency must be weirdos compared to couples who met serendipitously.   

Why should anyone care how a couple meets?  That is their business.  And why judge people when you know so little about them?  And why judge anyone unless you are a bank loan officer.

[Boethius]

SJ stigmatizes the MOB method of introducing boy and girl.

No, he stigmatizes the notion of excluding hundreds, possibly thousands, of potential local partners to focus solely on women thousands of miles away, for whom, often, language is a barrier, where physical proximity is, for the most part, sporadic, and where cultures are disparate.

[Misha]

Who are these mythical men that focus solely on RW? Neo summarized it best so I won't repeat what he wrote.

[Boethius]

There are plenty of men who have posted on this forum that have so stated.  So, unless those posters are myths, we have examples within this very community.

[Jumper]

SJ-
 It's not that i do not see your point.


Its that i have never met a single man. single RW, or a  WM/RW married couple that any of them had started their relationship ,or this venture ,with the mindset you portray.
none.

yes a small sample group,
 but i ask you plainly do you personally know anyone like this?


You read it on fora.
 
well then it must be true for "most"?


My company sometimes runs a forum.
it naturally *becomes* a complaint forum.imagine?

While we hold the worlds best customer satisfaction rating in this business ,
someone reading that forum alone, would certainly assume otherwise.

Almost every person who has a compliant ,either legitimate or not , would post it.

but just how many, per 10,000 satisfied customers ,
will post their positive experience on a general company forum like that?  There is real research in the matter, care to take a guess?

 To use what is posted on internet forums as some " barometer ,of the "average" or "most"  involved seems truly poor methodology.


While my microcosm, or FP;'s , or your own,  isnt a big sample group,
i'd certainly entertain the idea that it is as accurate as a a few thousand internet forum posts  


I do not believe this most ..are weirdo's

If this was true, then i'd find it would have to equally apply to "most"  women looking to leave their country,
their own friends and family ,  a common language ,
 where the basics needs of life were indeed readily available ,and there are plenty of men.

If a WM is silly to complain of his plight, then the RW doesnt get a free pass.
pressures exists or they do not ,you cant say men have zero excuse to look abroad  ,then explain away the RW looking as quite normal..
 in populations where the statistics do not bear out any lack of ratio men to women  

Beo, you followed a path that  western women in general would find quite weird.
The difference here is you are not pointing at other Western women who choose to look elsewhere and label them as mostly weirdo's, SJ has.
 
.
let me get this straight .

Men looking east are mostly weirdos,(not broadening their nets ,as a rule of "most")
women looking east ,or west, are mostly simply  broadening  their nets
 
got it

the weirdness is simply based on gender
 
 



so in *our* big sweeping generalities-

"most" men exclude all other women (that hot german woman at frankfort wouldn't turn his head ,or in Neo's case the ltalian waitress that inherited an Austin Martin)

and "most" women looking either direction , are far more rational,less weird,  and only broadening their net.

[Ade]

And why would SJ not think them weirdos if RW take the same gender relative steps as the many WM he describes as weirdos?  And many RW do express that they have given up on RM (although I am sure the door is open to the right RM).

SJ stigmatizes the MOB method of introducing boy and girl.  Thus, RW-AM couples who met via an agency must be weirdos compared to couples who met serendipitously.   

Why should anyone care how a couple meets?  That is their business.  And why judge people when you know so little about them?  And why judge anyone unless you are a bank loan officer.

Actually, I don't really care, it's just a topic of conversation to help break up the cold Arkhangelsk days. Anyway, I'll remind you that this came about as a result of my (attempted humo(u)rous) comment on one of the possible benefits of dating FSUW for the under 35's which was; they can hide their social ineptitude behind the language and cultural barrier. I still say that a goodly proportion do this. Take it or leave it, that's my opinion (aka gross generalisation) based on a poor sample of the weird dude's posts and stories from FSUW.

Neo, thanks for the (long) post. I sort of agree with some and not with other bits. I'm not really up to responding as I have a new novel I just bought for my Kindle that I want to get on and read.

[Gator]

No, he stigmatizes the notion of excluding hundreds, possibly thousands, of potential local partners to focus solely on women thousands of miles away, for whom, often, language is a barrier, where physical proximity is, for the most part, sporadic, and where cultures are disparate.

Your set of conditions applies to every man who somehow came into contact with a woman in the FSU, excepting the term "focus solely."  Boethius I doubt that any AM who visits the FSU for the first time has taken a solemn oath to never date AW again.  

Many romantics criticize men who take a WMVM trip yet acclaim a man on a WOVO trip.   Another term for WOVO is "focus solely."

Taking one's first trip to the FSU is not like going to the local singles bar with some friends.  It takes research, communication and planning.  A man better be focused or he will probably have an unrewarding trip.

[Gator]

Actually, I don't really care, it's just a topic of conversation to help break up the cold Arkhangelsk days. Anyway, I'll remind you that this came about as a result of my (attempted humo(u)rous) comment on one of the possible benefits of dating FSUW for the under 35's which was; they can hide their social ineptitude behind the language and cultural barrier. I still say that a goodly proportion do this. Take it or leave it, that's my opinion (aka gross generalisation) based on a poor sample of the weird dude's posts and stories from FSUW.

So that's when this horse started running.  It is a dead horse now.  Enjoy your read.

Regardng hiding one's social ineptitude, many RW I dated seemed to be very street smart about men and life.