The Mike and Olga Conroy Story

[ECOCKS]

Nothing new there Billy. My 8 minute hassle remark still stands. It was that long because I had to lookup my marriage/divorce dates and type the states where I have lived. I know my wife commented once she had to do some paperwork to meet me since I was American but will have to ask her sometime whether that in any way significantly prevented her from contacting me in a reasonable amount of time. I also agree with your comment towards the end that there is some lax enforcement on the women's side in that they are probably not getting written acknowledgments but instead using some sort of electronic verificiation of the document receipt.

As for mensdailynews.com, I don't remotely consider them a reliable or credible source of information. That aside though, the guy that wrote it needs a course on designing a research project and should watch how he tries to summarize findings through some really wild assertions which had little, if anything to do with IMBRA (Women with unavailable addresses and contact info or old, outdated, email addresses for instance would still be unavailable as well as old and outdated when attempting to contact someone whether IMBRA was in force or not).

If you were turned off by the statements on Angelika and CS I guess you're going to be doing the free sites in the future but that doesn't seem to have really stopped Elena's or Aweb or any of those sites signups by men. I wonder who has credible numbers on real business impact at these sites?

My question about re-labeling Elena's as a dating site was more practical and business functional than it was questioning how IMBRA defined them  but it is still unanswered by the definition presented. 

[BillyB]

If you were turned off by the statements on Angelika and CS I guess you're going to be doing the free sites in the future but that doesn't seem to have really stopped Elena's or Aweb or any of those sites signups by men.

ECOCKS, if you want to get into this business, you better understand the ramifications of IMBRA on your business if you so decide to follow the law. It's a hassle for your customers and it's a hassle for your ladies to sign a release form for every man who writes her.

When a guy goes into a car lot, if he doesn't buy a car at that moment, chances are he will not come back to buy a car. This is well know in the automotive business World. If a guy was browsing profiles at an agency website and he read about IMBRA requirements and it gave him the impression he had to go to the police station, pay for a background check and submit it to the agency before he could communicate with the ladies, most likely he will be moving on to a place with less hassles.

Here's what Anastasia tells their customers:

The Federal statute forbids direct dissemination or facilitation by an IMB of personal information using any of its services based on speech or other forms of communication. This includes Anastasia's E-mail service, Live Chat or other service where the assistance of a translator is used. IMBRA also requires background checks on all members traveling to Russia & CIS with Anastasia.

Besides filling out the paperwork, going to get a background check takes more than 8 minutes. If you are going to be running an agency someday, be honest with your customers and don't tell them IMBRA procedures will only take only 8 minutes out of their life.

If a guy chooses to use an agency that does not enforce IMBRA or interprets it wrong and he visits and falls in love with a lady there, she could be denied a visa. Whether it's his fault, the woman's fault for not signing a release form or agencies fault for not making sure both parties are doing things properly, it adds to the risk of using an agency over a dating site.

Without proper documents, it's illegal for a guy to say"Hello" to a woman in an email. If this gets out of hand, they may have to start arresting people.

[ECOCKS]

Noted Billy.

[BillyB]

ECOCKS, since this interests you, I'll give you a couple more of my personal observations.

No agency uses the same wording when educating their customers on IMBRA requirements. As a potential customer I would interpret Columbian Sweethearts IMBRA instructions as if I must submit a background check on myself before communicating with any of their ladies. Anastasia's IMBRA instructions gives me the impression that I can contact their ladies without a background check as long as I use their controlled means of communication.

What is absolutely clear is that I can't write to an agency woman's Personal email address, I can't call her personal phone number and I can't meet her face to face unless I submit a background check on myself and she signs a release form before she's allowed to give me her personal information. If I, her, or the agency violates or ignores these procedures, it is against the law and people may be surprised if the embassy wants to play hardball and denies them a visa after months or years being in love.

The Angelika network agencies in the past sold personal contact info. Although I never used agency services, I did buy contact info from them of the ladies I was interested in. Angelika, at their site, said this can no longer happen unless American men follow the IMBRA rules. Apparently our government designing IMBRA has impacted Angelika enough to alter their business model. Angelika once understood not all men want an agency in the middle of their communication with a woman so they catered to different group of guys like me, selling contact info which consisted mostly email and postal addresses to keep me from doing business with a dating site. I'm sure it once made them money. Not anymore so guys like me will not be thinking of doing business there again.

[Jooky]

If I, her, or the agency violates or ignores these procedures, it is against the law and people may be surprised if the embassy wants to play hardball and denies them a visa after months or years being in love.

Have you heard of any cases of this happening?

If the embassy isn't diligent enough to do background checks themselves on criminals like Conroy, do they actually check to see if a couple met through an IMBRA compliant agency?

[BillyB]

Have you heard of any cases of this happening?

If the embassy isn't diligent enough to do background checks themselves on criminals like Conroy, do they actually check to see if a couple met through an IMBRA compliant agency?

Personally I think embassy personnel don't take enforcement of IMBRA seriously and I don't many people will have any problems. I'm also sure from the agencies side there are plenty of violations happening. If a mistake is made if contact info is exchanged or sold too early before proper procedures are followed, they will just back date a release form.

When a customer wants something, he wants it now and he doesn't want to be told before he can purchase a lady's email address he must wait days until the lady has time to come in to sign a release form. I'm sure the agencies who continue to sell contact info will just sell the info and back date a release form if necessary.

Whether or not IMBRA is taken seriously and actually enforced, as a potential customer new to this endeavor, I will tend to believe what I read about IMBRA requirements and be less enthusiastic to do business with an agency even though I have a clean record.

ATTENTION: All men currently emailing, calling or meeting agency women without submitting a background check and her signing a release form for permission to personally contact her, turn yourselves in! Bad boys, bad boys, what are you going to do when they come for you?

Maybe there will come a day there will be a law in America to equally protect domestic women and men must keep a background check no older than a month on their person. While in public, before they are allowed to speak to a woman face to face, he must present her with his background check and she must sign a release form before engaging in conversation or exchanging of phone numbers. Violators may be denied a marriage license if someday they choose to apply.

[Brianinaz]

I don't know how strictly they enforce the law or to what extent they go to verify peoples stories but the only question my wife was asked in Kiev was "how did you meet?". She pulled out the newspaper ad I ran and and gave it to him. That was the end of the interview. How much more he would have asked for if she had said an agency? I don't know but at least they are interested enough to ask the question. If you don't have your ducks in a row that may well be enough to deny a visa.

Someone upstream mentioned IMBRA not applying to K3's. My impression is it applies to both K1 and K3 visas.

[GQBlues]

From the get-go, I always supported IMBRA. My knock on IMBRA however is that it has a huge loophole they need to take care of. Right now it serves only one aspect of these marriages. People not going through agencies can pretty much avoid the entire procedures. While you do succeed in curbing potential cases of abuse, you still have serious lacking in total protection, or at least a hefty percentage of it.

FSUWs, along with the rest of women involved in marrying AMs, need to be provided an opportunity for education combined with free access to sources for personal/criminal information who are a subject of their fancy. Foreign women are at a great disadvantage of being ignorant of any foreign man's historical background. I mean, one of the popular advice given in these halls is to hire a private detective to get as much info/intel on a woman of their fancy - so why not make that an equitable affair?

Many AWs are doing that today. With the present information highway, public personal records, criminal records, credit records are readily available for proper authorities to acquire. Tit-4-tat. AMs complain AWs are ladened with debt, well, so do many AMs themselves.

Get smart, then get married.

[Maxx2]

From the get-go, I always supported IMBRA.

GQ, I have been wondering these past 3-4 years if it was you who directed Olga Conway to the Tahirih Justice Center? I personally have no interest in IMBRA as I have no intention of ever marrying a foreign or even a domestic (no pun intended) woman. I got smart you as say. 

[GQBlues]

GQ, I have been wondering these past 3-4 years if it was you who directed Olga Conway to the Tahirih Justice Center? I personally have no interest in IMBRA as I have no intention of ever marrying a foreign or even a domestic (no pun intended) woman. I got smart you as say. 

LOL I didn't mean to leave you in a state of wonderment for years Maxx  But no, it isn't me. I don't know Olga from Madison or Tahirih from Disneyland.

The only correspondence I had with her is through that exchange we had on that thread. Maybe TomT / Caulfield?

IIRC, there was a RW who peeked and posted one post on the thread to tell Olga to send a PM as she have info she can share, etc...it may have been her (?)

[ECOCKS]

I don't know how strictly they enforce the law or to what extent they go to verify peoples stories but the only question my wife was asked in Kiev was "how did you meet?". She pulled out the newspaper ad I ran and and gave it to him. That was the end of the interview. How much more he would have asked for if she had said an agency? I don't know but at least they are interested enough to ask the question. If you don't have your ducks in a row that may well be enough to deny a visa.

Someone upstream mentioned IMBRA not applying to K3's. My impression is it applies to both K1 and K3 visas.

The part of IMBRA we were talking about was the 2 lifetime limit which applies to K1's, not K3's. To wit,

"IMBRA limits a US petitioner’s sponsorship of K1 (fiancé(e)) visas to 2 total, with no less than 2 years between the filing of the last approved petition and the current petition."

[Maxx2]

Maybe TomT / Caulfield?

IIRC, there was a RW who peeked and posted one post on the thread to tell Olga to send a PM as she have info she can share, etc...it may have been her (?)

I am happy and relieved that you were not among the usual suspects. I had taken an anti-IMBRA stance at the time although my real issue was that "both sides should be heard" but I thought "there goes that clever guy again" grrrrr. The real irony of it all was that the company that owned that website that Olga posted on was challenging the IMBRA law in Federal Court. Then along comes Olga at the very moment that TJC needed her. Was it :angel: or the   that directed her there or a liberal or RW? LOL


Maxx

[BillyB]

From the get-go, I always supported IMBRA.

Say it ain't so Joe!

I'm sure most good people are in support of protecting women. We all have mothers, sisters, and daughters. IMBRA is poorly designed and we should expect more out of our government and be less accepting of crappy laws like this.

It does not protect domestic and foreign women equally.

It does not protect foreign women equally.

It does not protect women and men equally.

I'm willing to bet RW that includes scammers and Pro daters are screwing naive marriage minded men more than the men are screwing RW(no pun intended).

In my opinion, the sex tourist seeking barely legal/illegal aged RW are much more dangerous than the average marriage seeking man. IMBRA does not target those group of men. Don't you agree our tax money and initial focus are better served to stop men going to Thailand screwing children sold in the sex industry?

Is protecting women IMBRA's goal or could it be the feminist authors of the bill look down at marriage agencies as meat markets selling women and targeting only the agencies while ignoring protection for women at dating sites and very young women with no place to go but in the FSU sex industry?

Besides men, there are domestic women that do find love overseas too. Not through marriage agencies but dating sites since marriage agencies offering men are extremely rare. If IMBRA targeted dating sites, domestic women would not be happy with the Feminist authors.  In reality IMBRA hassles affect only domestic men, marriage agencies, and the women in marriage agencies although it's authors imply it's gender neutral.

A relative of mine lives in a neighborhood that isn't the finest around. Maybe you guys live in better neighborhoods and don't get the mail she gets. Sometimes she get mail from the government telling her a man classified as level 1 child molester and level 2 stalker with a high probable chance to repeat offenses has moved into the neighborhood.

I understand certain extremely violent and perverted criminals should labeled and be identified for life wherever they go after they get out of jail paying their debt to society but most men here have punched someone before. Convicted of violence or not, should you carry a label that you are a violent man and is it a good thing for all men have to prove their innocence before obtaining the right to speak with a woman? It doesn't seem like a very romantic way to meet a woman to me.

Mike Conroy was a monster and there are more Mike's here abusing domestic women too. Unfortunately you can't put those guys behind bars until they commit a vicious crime. IMBRA won't stop them in the least. If they can't beat up and control a foreign woman, they will do it to a domestic woman instead. Our government had Mike's info when he applied for a k-1. They did not check his background and if they did, it would have set off alarm bells. Who pays for the government's mistake now?

[ECOCKS]

BTW Billy, you seem freaked about the 8 minutes but that is what it actually takes. I was pretty mobile and had to collect some data so I could type it all in but someone never married before and who has lived in the same location all their life would be about half that.

You also keep carrying on about going to get your criminal background check. You need to read those sites you sent me and pay attention to the word "attestation". You (the US citizen client) fill in the form with your name(s) used, states lived in, criminal convictions, marriage and divorce info and then click that you have no criminal record in the areas covered and that's it. The agency still has to run your name through the database and keep a record of your statement but your time is practically nothing in the great scheme of things.

While I am looking at requiring a criminal background check, copy of the passport, DL copy and a fingerprint card for my project, that's above and beyond the minimum standards required by CIS. This was verified by both my lawyer and the CIS.

[BillyB]

you seem freaked about the 8 minutes but that is what it actually takes.

8 min is what it initially takes. Getting a police report alone is a hassle since it takes more than 8 min, and it's not free. You potentially getting in this business should know your customers are affected by the hassles and extra cost involved. Some of your customers may just say "screw it" and not be a customer. I never liked to do business with an agency anyway because I don't like the thought of a middle man in the middle of and in control of communications with me and a lady. More hassles from IMBRA just to speak with the women through their personal email and phone only reinforces my stance on not doing business with an agency. I'm not the bad guy here but take note I along with many other men feel the same way.

Why does all men who do business with an agency have to pay the price for the actions of a few bad men? Guys like Mike Conroy should be labeled a rapist and extremely violent with high probability of being a repeat offender wherever he goes. That would be the better solution. Guys like Mike when giving their SS# on the visa application will be caught. It is foolish of our government to let agencies enforce the laws properly anyway. Our government would do a better job if they themselves would do a mandatory background check on the men applying for visas to understand who they are dealing with. Our government should understand who is bringing people into this country not only for the safety of foreign women but for the safety of the nation if in case someone is importing terrorists through marriage.

[ECOCKS]

8 min is what it initially takes. Getting a police report alone is a hassle since it takes more than 8 min, and it's not free. You potentially getting in this business should know your customers are affected by the hassles and extra cost involved. Some of your customers may just say "screw it" and not be a customer. I never liked to do business with an agency anyway because I don't like the thought of a middle man in the middle of and in control of communications with me and a lady. More hassles from IMBRA just to speak with the women through their personal email and phone only reinforces my stance on not doing business with an agency. I'm not the bad guy here but take note I along with many other men feel the same way.

Why does all men who do business with an agency have to pay the price for the actions of a few bad men? Guys like Mike Conroy should be labeled a rapist and extremely violent with high probability of being a repeat offender wherever he goes. That would be the better solution. Guys like Mike when giving their SS# on the visa application will be caught. It is foolish of our government to let agencies enforce the laws properly anyway. Our government would do a better job if they themselves would do a mandatory background check on the men applying for visas to understand who they are dealing with. Our government should understand who is bringing people into this country not only for the safety of foreign women but for the safety of the nation if in case someone is importing terrorists through marriage.

Billy, I am at a loss as to how to be more plain.

THERE IS NO FOLLOW-UP ACTION BY THE CUSTOMER REQUIRED BY IMBRA.

No police report is required by the client or the agency. The costs are minimal to type the names on the form into the search database required by the Act (especially if the clerk is being paid Ukrainian wages). The biggest hit on the agency's costs are getting the gal to actually do this "written acknowledgment" that she read the client response in their native language. That would take some time to prepare if, of course you actually accepted a client that had a record. There would be a time delay while the gal mailed the acknowledgement back but even that can be dealt with by a smart system to receive the acknowledgment somewhere and then fax it to another spot for release of the communications /contact info.  Why a decent agency would do that, I cannot guess. If you don't wish to take the 4-8 minutes to fill in the form, then that's great, don't do it. For me though, it was nothing.

[BillyB]

No police report is required by the client or the agency. The costs are minimal to type the names on the form into the search database required by the Act (especially if the clerk is being paid Ukrainian wages).

http://www.tahirih.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/imbrasummary.pdf

This site and agency listed IMBRA requirements are clear. A client must submit criminal and marital history or attestation to the marriage broker.  Some sites such as Columbian Sweetheart made it sound as if they need a background check from their clients. But if true a guy can write down his background history and certify it by signature, then IMBRA really fails at protecting women. We all know how honest criminals and sex predators are about their past.

Agencies must check the sex offender registry at the site below. Note they only have to check sex offender history, not criminal. I typed the name John Robinson and it came up with a few names but how does the agency know who's who if they indeed found a client's name on the sex offender registry. SS# aren't listed with names and an agency can't check by way of SS# and most likely if a guy is indeed on there, he will not list the proper address he's supposed to be living at on the forms he's supposed to fill out. He could come up with the excuse and tell the agency a sex offender has the same name he does although he is the sex offender listed.

http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/OffenderSearchCriteria.aspx

I see a lot of criminals and sex offenders getting around the system. IMBRA allows attestation and lets agencies police their laws. We all know how honest all agencies are.

Our government can easily check people's background through drivers license and SS#. I think one reason our government is not involved and passes the buck to agencies is because although there are violent and sexual criminals out there, those criminals did their time and paid their debt to society. They have the right to marry and the government doesn't want to get sued by restricting their rights so they let others who are not as qualified and doesn't do a thorough job since they are only required to do sexual offender background checks on men. IMBRA is not very effective.

[GQBlues]

Say it ain't so Joe!

LOL, classic. Had you taken the time to read the very next sentence on that post, you could've saved yourself having to type a long post....

As for IMBRA, the phrase: "a little bit of something is a heck of a lot better than nothing". So for me, that's mighty good enough - for now.

Bottom line, if a man has no issues, then it doesn't concern him nor should the (or any) woman he fancies.

[SMS60]

If this law was applied to Match.com and the likes you would find out what kind of teeth it had. My guess is it would be all gums.

For the supporters. How far would a law like this need to go until you said enough?

[ECOCKS]

If this law was applied to Match.com and the likes you would find out what kind of teeth it had. My guess is it would be all gums.

For the supporters. How far would a law like this need to go until you said enough?

As many point out, it needs to go further and cover domestic as well as foreign marriages. As also commented on frequently it should be the governments job to make the option available in domestic marriages and the consulates responsibility for overseas. There would probably have to be a technological delivery system with adequate safeguards designed to make the option accessible at the early relationhip stage but for now it looks like it would be just prior to exchanging vows.

Teeth? They could give it teeth by pushing it down to the state or local level within the US and DoS could enforce by simply invalidating passports of offenders and then watching for them. Misdemeanor and parole violation is probably enough of a punishment.

As someone mentioned upstream, better something than nothing although they could begin improving it by shifting off the agencies and onto state, local govts and consulate offices. Aside from being a small burden on the agencies, it isn't that practical in its implementation being the responsibility of non-US citizens (usually) and requiring dispersal of the information throughout a too widespread area.

Too far? I don't see a too far yet, only not far enough.

[Maxx2]

Too far? I don't see a too far yet, only not far enough.

 That is what the people were saying about the first few years of the income taxes. "Those rich so and so's are not paying enough of 'their fair share' so crank it up" Next thing the income tax applies to everyone and you get mandatory 1040 forms by the IRS for every citizen of age to fill out by such and such date or they face the consequences. Goodbye 5th amendment rights. The same here with IMBRA.

After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the government then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence: it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.


Alexis de Tocqueville (1805 - 1859)

Maxx

[Seeker]

Nice quote... and it seems accurate to me in many ways.  I was not familiar with Alexis de Tocqueville but I think I will try and learn more.  Interesting perspective on things.

[ECOCKS]

That is what the people were saying about the first few years of the income taxes. "Those rich so and so's are not paying enough of 'their fair share' so crank it up" Next thing the income tax applies to everyone and you get mandatory 1040 forms by the IRS for every citizen of age to fill out by such and such date or they face the consequences. Goodbye 5th amendment rights. The same here with IMBRA.

Maxx

Careful Maxx, soon they won't let you near an airplane.

[Maxx2]

Careful Maxx, soon they won't let you near an airplane.

Yes I know. I hope to someday soon to fly to Ecuador and establish a new life there. I may have to take a boat instead. It's sad we have to joke about such a thing.

Ecocks, in all due respect to you, how do you handle your views in regard to compelling the U.S.C. to inform on themselves (a violation of their 5th Amendment rights) in compliance to IMBRA with that of your oath as as an Oathkeeper?  www.oathkeepers.org/ Namely this one found in the tenth oath you swore to defend?

Therefore, we will not obey or support any orders to suppress or violate the right of the people to speak, associate, worship, assemble, communicate, or petition government for the redress of grievances.

Maxx

[Boethius]

How are constitutional rights infringed?  The state is not charging him with anything, nor penalizing him.  There's a duty to disclose.  That doesn't mean if a man has a criminal record, he can't contact a woman, nor sponsor her.