FSU person getting tourist visa to enter USA

[ML]

Various aspects of this topic have shown up in several threads.  Perhaps time to devote a thread to it.

There are many possible subcategories here.  One of the biggest is: How hard it is or is not for FSU people to get such a visa.  This thread is NOT intended to cover that category.  Please start another  thread if you wish  to discuss that category.

Also start another thread if you wish to discuss, Visas to pursue education in USA, summer work, business, etc.

Here, I wish to pass-on and receive some info about what I think is a common misconception concerning good procedures for FSU peopleto obtain tourist visas.

This misconception has to do with ideas about someone from USA *inviting* the FSU person, *guaranteeing* their financial status, *making sure* the FSU person returns home on time, etc., etc., etc.

It is also my understanding that the rules about these things are substantially different for USA as compared to some other western countries.

In the biggest overarching sense:

USA visa granting authorities want the visa applicantion to stand on its own; WITHOUT any regard to any *invitations* *financial guarantees from USA citizens* etc., etc.

In another recent thread Ecocks quoted some more detailed info from USA Embassy on this subject.  My statement above distills that info to a very simple idea.

And, in another recent thread, Ludmila asked some info about SPb which included reference to *invitation.*  That is the most recent one that piqued my interest in trying to help clarify this issue.

Now, keep in mind, I am not claiming that I am an expert on this, or even claiming that what I typed above is even correct.

So that is the purpose of this thread.  To try to put  together some of the misconceptions, old wives tales, etc., and get some clarification.

Here are some things I do know.

1) In my business travels to FSU, I have been asked more than once to help someone [both men and women] with a tourist (not business) visa application to USA by: a) giving an invitation, b) being a sponsor, c) providing financial guarantees, etc.

In checking with my USA colleagues, I was told:  There are no invites for such visas, the application must stand on its own, there is no provision for financial guarantees, etc.

2) At a party in Ukraine, I met a retired US Army General who had a local GF that he was thinking about marrying - - down the road a bit.  He told a group of us they were going to Kyiv the next week to apply for a tourist visa for her.

The advice he got from other Americans was: Go with her to Kyiv, but DO NOT get involved in the tourist visa application or even let them know she and you are dating.

The General was incredulous asking "Why not?"  Because came the answer, if they think she and you are romantically involved, then they will insist that you follow the fiancee visa route.  The General was still incredulous.  He said, I can help guarantee all her costs, that she will return, etc.  After all, I am a USA General he said: That alone should carry some weight in helping her get the visa.  The advice was that none of that would help, and in fact she would be denied the tourist visa once they knew you (the General) (or any American) was romantically involved with this woman.  The would deny, and then tell her to reapply for fiancee visa.

The General said:  But isn't it a good idea for her to come to USA on tourist visa first, see if she likes the country, etc.?  And then we decide whether to get engaged or not, and then apply for the fiancee visa?

All agreed it was a good idea; but that it wouldn't work if he tries to help.  She has to get tourist visa - - all on her own without any reference to you or even knowledge by the Embassy people that she even knows you.

3. A young Ukrainian man that I knew befriended a man from Netherlands.  They followed a procedure to obtain a tourist visa for the Ukrainian man to visit Netherlands that required a) an invitation from Dutch man, b) financial guarantees from Dutch man (something like he would have to pay around $1,000 a month for every month there was no proof that the Ukrainian man had left the Netherlands), c) etc., etc.

From the Netherlands procedures and procedures from other western countries is where people get the false impression that such procedures are necessary and even that they will work with respect to getting a tourist visa to USA.

4) Officially, we from USA need an *invitation* to get visa to Russia (even if the invitation is in most cases just purchased from GoToRussia or some other such place.)  This helps feed into the idea that based on some sort of reciprocity, Russians would need the same sort of *invitation* to apply for tourist visa to USA.

It is my understanding that the procedures for USA and other countries are SUBSTANTIALLY different; and if other country procedures are attempted with respect to visa application procedures to USA - - they will help insure the denial of visa application to enter USA as tourist.

I add the caveat that:  What may or may not work, can be substantially different between 1) visa applications from family members where a FSU person is married to a citizen of USA,  2) visa applications from single FSU women, and 3) applications for business visa to enter USA

That's what I know, or think I know.

Comments?

[ECOCKS]

IMO, you are substantially right in every instance relating to Ukraine's procedures. As you say, this is quite obviously one of the scenarios which drove the US Consul to make her statements regarding the tourist visa process. This drama is played out regularly at the ACS offices and in the expat bars around Kyiv. Among the regulars, it is the subject of considerable derision and source of humor (after all, television is difficult to setup over there).

The only thing I would modify is that Canada and the UK, as well as much of the EU, are the same way. To my knowledge, standard tourist visas are available though hard to qualify for in those locations and almost never involve invitations for true vacation-style tourism. We aren't that unique in that regard. You present itineraries and tickets, but no invitation is requested or expected. This is based on multiple issuances of tourist visas to Poland, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic; in none of those instances were "invitations" from the hotels, travel agency or anyone else requested or shown. The only times invitations are required is when extended stays involving temporary or permanent local residency are anticipated.

[Gylden]

Qualifying for a Visa
Applicants for visitor visas must show that they qualify under provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Applicants must demonstrate that they are properly classifiable as visitors under U.S. law.
The presumption in the law is that every visitor visa applicant is an intending immigrant. Therefore, applicants for visitor visas must overcome this presumption by demonstrating that:
1.   The purpose of their trip is to enter the U.S. for business, pleasure, or medical treatment;
2.   That they plan to remain for a specific, limited period;
3.   Evidence of funds to cover expenses in the United States;
4.   Evidence of compelling social and economic ties abroad; and
5.   That they have a residence outside the U.S. as well as other binding ties that will insure their return abroad at the end of the visit.
The most frequent basis for such a refusal concerns the requirement that the prospective visitor or student possess a residence abroad he/she has no intention of abandoning. Applicants prove the existence of such residence by demonstrating that they have ties abroad that would compel them to leave the U.S. at the end of the temporary stay. The law places this burden of proof on the applicant.
The above is taken from:  http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html#3
IMO the most important factor in applying for a visa is honesty! These interviewers are trained in recognizing discrepancies, so if you try to deceive them in any way the chances for denial are much greater.
Let’s make an example, say I have a Russian girlfriend, 30 yo has her own apartment, no kids and a job which officially pays 300 dollars a month. I have been to Russia and met her and now I want her to come to the US for a visit. She has not much in savings or nothing. We both feel that we are not ready for marriage but would like to pursue to get to know each other and are both thinking that it could end up in marriage. What do you think would be the best way to apply for the visa?  First lets look at the requirements.
Point 1. This can be explained: I would like to visit the US on vacation, I have met a man from there and he has invited me to be his guest in his home in California. (this is honest and reasonable) and no need for the interviewer to think otherwise.
Point 2.  I will be in the US for two weeks, starting such and such date to such and such date. Produce and itinerary. (you will ask to produce the tickets when you pick up the visa).
Point 3.  I will be staying with my friend at his home, give address and letter inviting her and confirming that he will be paying for her vacation. Present a copy of the wire transfer, which he has made to cover the ticket/travel expenses.
Point  4 and 5.  These are the key points in the whole process. In our made up case here, she owns an apartment, which would be considered a strong financial tie, family and friends and a job which she likes can be social ties, but let’s be honest almost everyone who has ever immigrated has those kinds of ties, and the still immigrated and didn’t lose any of those ties.
The point I am trying to make here is that if you read the information which is published on the govt. web site everyone is believed to be an immigrant unless you can prove otherwise. IMO they are looking for honesty in all areas more than specifics, which in reality are basically the same for everyone.
If a woman with no kids in her 20’s or 30’s says she is taking a vacation to see the US, by herself, with a salary which doesn’t support the associated costs (thinking there is no way she will get approval to visit a boyfriend), they see right through it and she gets rejected on the spot, because it shows intent to lie.
Anyway I could go on and on, but this is some very important aspect to these long distance relationships, which IMO misconceptions make for mistakes (people get married before they are really ready).

[ML]

You didn't mention it Gylden, but your statements and my statements are in strong contradiction.  Ecocks says he agrees with me.

Others??

[Gylden]

Be more specific on what you are talking about. I get most of my information from the government website. Do you mean that it isn't right to be honest?

[ML]

My example re the General was very specific and touched on the very things that you gave an entirely different answer to. 

The thing I was trying to clarify was: What is the best way to insure getting a tourist visa.  All of my informants say the  woman will never get a tourist visa if they know she is involved with an American man.  You say the opposite.

That is why, rather  than you and I exchanging comments,  that we need input from many people; hopefully those with some experience.

[Jack]

  That is why, rather  than you and I exchanging comments,  that we need input from many people; hopefully those with some experience. 

ManLooking, I have shared comments AND experiences with Gylden in PM.

Gylden you certainly have my permission to share my comments to you, or with your permission, I can share here.

[Gylden]

Well Manlooking,
I don't want to upset you, but I would like to point out, I am a person and maybe you missunderstand my post, I suggest you read it again. I do have some experience in this matter and I am contributing my experience/opinions, which is what you say you are looking for. If you want everyone to just say your the man and you know everything, then you will be disappointed soon or later.
Let me explain something in more detail for you.
I have been told by the consulate that a foreign woman having a relationship with US man is not a reason for rejecting a visa. However, if a young single woman applies for a tourist visa and she is claiming not to be going to the US to see a man and they believe she is not being truthful she will be rejected just because she is suspected of not being truthful. There are many ways of not being truthful, if you would like me to elaborate I will. There are 5 basic point/requirements that the visa applicant must fullfill as I copied and pasted from the govt. website. The most important of these is the last two, #4 and #5. If you think about these questions a bit what do you think can support these points, which is concrete? There isn't any, because family/flat/job really never stopped anyone from immigrating before (or at least very seldom). So what do you think they are looking for in an answer?
My point about the letter of invitation is that while it cannot be used as a guarantee that she will return, you can use it to support that she has the financial resources for the trip (point #3) and especially if you have allready sent money and it is in her account. As far as the tickets go (round trip) they won't let her pick up the visa until she produces the tickets.

I am not exactly saying the opposite, just that it depends on how it is presented.

[Gylden]

Certainly Jack, there was nothing of a private nature in what you wrote to me and the more the better. I only wrote to you in PM as I felt it was a little off topic on that thread.
 

[Mike78]

There are also other types of long term visa that may be very well suited for temporary cohabitation, especially for younger ladies:

1. Au Pair
2. Student visa
3. Work and Travel
4. Internship

Example - my friend has his Slovakian GF here on Au Pair program for almost 2 years laready. They're living together and all that. I think she even gets a somewhat decent pay in the range of $13-$14/hours or so. They were prolly lucky/knowledgeable, but it is possible.
Student visa - IDK that much about them, but as long as you pay for the semester(s), it should be easy to get.
Work and Travel - only for current students in their native country. Should be easy and cheap, but the visa are only for about 4-5 months or so.
Internship - definitely hard to find a position, especially so that she is close to you. BUT, if you are a business owner, you may 'create' a position just for her I've seen this happen before, but it is definitely a shady area and probably not exactly legal, so I definitely DON'T recommend this...but the visa are long term (1.5-2 years), which should give just enough time to really get to know your LIQ

[tfcrew]

IMO the most important factor in applying for a visa is honesty!

That is the most profoundly accurate statement in this entire thread.
There are oodles of visa sites with more official info..
 Try this one..

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/

This site contains information about visas from anywhere to anywhere.

[BC]

That is the most profoundly accurate statement in this entire thread.
There are oodles of visa sites with more official info..
 Try this one..

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/

This site contains information about visas from anywhere to anywhere.

We had no problems at all.. got visa for wife and daughter a few years back, (our son didn't need one as USC).  We easily could have been a family trying to bypass a K2/3 process but the documentation told otherwise.. property in IT, tax filings in IT, etc etc.

I really think the CO's develop a rather good 'eye' for detecting shady cases of 'BF waiting', with intent other than being a tourist.

We saw a large number of FSU folks in the US, just being tourists so doubt there is something really wrong with the system.

[HiTech]

From requirements.

The presumption in the law is that every visitor visa applicant is an intending immigrant.

This is the stumbling block for all discussion about if a women is coming to see a man. While not being honest will hurt your chances, you must put your self in the shoes of the interview. He must be convinced that you will return. An American getting involved showing resources to do this, really do not help the case, what it shows is a strong tie to a person in America and hence an easier way for the person to stay in the USA.

So the key is to show ties back to the home country. Again the interviewer MUST assume you want to stay in the USA. Anything that lessons ties to the home or strengthen ties to the USA will be a detriment.

(We have tried 3 times for tourist visa, 2 for people wanting to attend our wedding, and a 2nd time for Alyonas father) .

[Chicagoguy]

I think some of this is just a crap shoot. An immigration lawyer here in Chicago told me that every interviewer is different and there is no way to predict the outcome.

I was friends with one woman who had an invitation from Motorola, had been here before, had a flat in Moscow and a three story brick dacha. Plus she had her own car and had just been to Paris on a Business Visa. They told her NO. Maybe because she was divorced and her child did not live with her. Who knows.

Another time a single male friend from Omsk who had been here before and had good job did get visa plus his 25 year old single sister with no story at all also got one.

Now I will be at bat again because we are inviting my wife's 26 year old daughter here for the Summer. She does not have much going for her except her mother has a GC. But that may turn out to be a detriment. She knows it also.

[tfcrew]

Chicagoguy...Keep us posted about that visa. Family should be admitted by all rights.
But it is like... you wrote, [a crap shoot]

[Phil dAmore]

Some years ago I recall reading on the US Consulate website that all non-immigrant visas are processed on the assumption that the visa holder will not return to their home country.

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Guys, please remember that as much as we may like Russia or Ukraine, to a recent foreign-service graduate who is on their first post, it is likely not the ideal assignment for them.  They tend to follow policy to the letter in hopes of getting a promotion and reassigned to a more desirable location, and if the policy is to not issue the visa except under very specific conditions, that is what they are going to do.

On the other side of the coin is the career Consul officer who may be:

a) Bitter and resentful of their career choice and takes it out on visa applicants

b) Not a very good worker which is why they never got the good assignments.  They won't issue a visa because if they can't leave the country, they will make sure that the applicant can't either

c) A little tyrant who has let the little bit of authority granted them go to their head.

d) All or none of the above.

IME I found that if a woman can adequately demonstrate that she has a really good reason to return home or can show that she has been to other countries and returned home on time, she stands a much better chance of getting a visa, unless she happens to get a Consular officer who is a real d!ck.

FWIW I always hated going to the Consulate in St. Petersburg.  They always made me feel like an intruder instead of a fellow citizen.

[ML]

Good analysis Phil.  But will you please elaborate further, and comment on the idea is it or is it not a good idea for the visa applicant to tell that she has a romantic relationship going with an American.

In my first post, I gave the story (as told to me) that mentioning such a relationship was a sure way to NOT get a visa.

Glyden, in his reply, advocated telling about the relationship

"I would like to visit the US on vacation, I have met a man from there and he has invited me to be his guest in his home in California. (this is honest and reasonable) and no need for the interviewer to think otherwise. "

So which of the two opposing viewpoints would you support?

* * * * * * *

Also, despite Glyden's comment toward me:  "If you want everyone to just say your the man and you know everything, then you will be disappointed soon or later."

Let me be clear that I know nothing other than what I have been told, and I know nothing about this, and I never claimed to know anything.  I am just trying to get some clarification from those who have experience.

Surely it was pretty clear in my OP when I stated:  "Now, keep in mind, I am not claiming that I am an expert on this, or even claiming that what I typed above is even correct."








 

[GQBlues]

I realize this specifies the visa as being a 'tourist' visa despite the fact the intent behind it is for a prospective FSUW to obtain 'a' visa so she can come to the US and spend a little time with her man and country....that said...

Over the years in these boards I heard of guys (gals) who were successful doing just that. The common denominator with these guys is that they had business interest/function in Russia and the rest is pretty simple. ( I am not advocating doing this as it is unlawful).

I have met/heard of a whole lot of young FSUWs in LA, who, more times than not; are here on 'business visas' more so than 'tourist' visas. Who sponsors them, gawd only knows... 

[Mike78]

I realize this specifies the visa as being a 'tourist' visa despite the fact the intent behind it is for a prospective FSUW to obtain 'a' visa so she can come to the US and spend a little time with her man and country....that said...

Over the years in these boards I heard of guys (gals) who were successful doing just that. The common denominator with these guys is that they had business interest/function in Russia and the rest is pretty simple. ( I am not advocating doing this as it is unlawful).

I have met/heard of a whole lot of young FSUWs in LA, who, more times than not; are here on 'business visas' more so than 'tourist' visas. Who sponsors them, gawd only knows... 

Oh yes, business visa, I forgot them in my list of visa loopholes. I know cases of this as well; actually very simple to get from what I heard (even if you don't really have a genuine "business" interest and some things have to be made up - again, I guess it is illegal so DON'T recommend...)

[Phil dAmore]

Good analysis Phil.  But will you please elaborate further, and comment on the idea is it or is it not a good idea for the visa applicant to tell that she has a romantic relationship going with an American.

IME I found that providing a 'letter of support' or any other declaration by an American didn't count for squat in the decision whether or not to issue the visa.

Regarding whether or not the woman should disclose the relationship, I am reminded of Clint Eastwood's great line in Dirty Harry:

Do you feel lucky?  Well, do you?

Were I in the position of an FSU woman seeking a visa I wouldn't volunteer anything, but I wouldn't try to BS them either.  That could really backfire.

When I tried to get Nina a tourist visa she got shot down like a clay pigeon and was told not to even think about trying to get a visa for the next five years.

W/R/T  other types of visas, if she possesses what are considered 'critical career skills', that might be an option  but she would have to be sponsored by a company.

For an individual there are far fewer options.

So how did all these young FSUW get to the U.S.? IMO they probably came in saying they were going to work as an Au Pair, and then went straight to work in the strip clubs of NY and LA. 

   

[Gylden]

First of all, look at the official govt. web site: http://travel.state.gov/visa/visa_1750.html

Phil, if you look through this web site you will find plenty of information here about denials, if your gf was denied a tourist visa and told she could not apply again before 5 years, she must have done something VERY wrong, because on the web site it states very plainly that if you are missing some information or if the information you are giving the interviewer is missing something, you can appeal and update/elaborate on the information and try again (no time limit). Furthermore, there is a pretty good rate of decisions, which are overturned in the appeal process and the people end up getting their visas. It's all there on their own web site. (all of the statistics can be found on the web site)
I have read countless cases of denials and legal threads about the subject of denials and as I said up thread the most important aspects of this tourist visa is the points #4 and #5. Oh and by the way on the govt. web site it does say that a letter of invitation can help, it doesn't insure the visa, but it clarifies the financial needs for the trip as well as the reason for the trip (remember this part, as later I will say a bit more about the invitation).

Think about these points, #4 and #5, what do you think compelling ties can mean? In reading on this, I have seen examples given, such as, owning a house/flat, children who are not traveling, family, car, job/carrier etc. If you think about these items though, I can't think of one FSUW who has married and immigrated out of the FSU, who didn't, for the most have all or almost all of these things. So what else could be compelling?  I suggest that one compelling reason can be what kind of character you have.  Are you honest? Do you understand the consequences of your actions? Do you respect the laws and processes of the country you are trying to get a visa to? If you pay attention to the govt. web site you can see that in the case of a younger applicant, they state that they understand that one might not have had time to establish strong economic ties as of yet. (yet they have granted visa for younger people) Think COMPELLING!  Nowhere in any official way has it ever been said that a woman could not or should not visit a man in the US even for  romantic reasons, I think that the government is on to us and knows that we are seeing women in other countries and they are granting K-1’s and K-whatever’s to people all of the time.

OK maybe I am full of sh!t, but IME during my life time I have done business in many different countries and had coordinated many people/products across international borders, it is what I have come to rely on.

The points again;

1.   The purpose of their trip is to enter the U.S. for business, pleasure, or medical treatment; A letter of invitation can certainly demonstrate the purpose of the trip! To visit a friend! (By the way, if a woman IS coming to visit a man and she tries to hide it here at this stage and it is somehow suspected that she might be seeing a man, because her destination is IE Iowa or Minnesota or?? Then the interview will be over and what is said about the remaining points won't matter. If she is conflicted with some sort of proof to that effect, then will she be restricted with a time constraint for applying for a new visa)
2.   That they plan to remain for a specific, limited period; Airline reservations with flight numbers and dates can satisfy this one!
3.   Evidence of funds to cover expenses in the United States; Again if you state so in the letter of invitation, it can serve as evidence, better yet a transfer to her account in addition to the letter!
4.   Evidence of compelling social and economic ties abroad; and
5.   That they have a residence outside the U.S. as well as other binding ties that will insure their return abroad at the end of the visit.

ManLooking,

Your reply #3:
“You didn't mention it Gylden, but your statements and my statements are in strong contradiction.  Ecocks says he agrees with me.

Others??”

Your reply #5:
“My example re the General was very specific and touched on the very things that you gave an entirely different answer to. 

The thing I was trying to clarify was: What is the best way to insure getting a tourist visa.  All of my informants say the woman will never get a tourist visa if they know she is involved with an American man.  You say the opposite.

That is why, rather  than you and I exchanging comments,  that we need input from many people; hopefully those with some experience.”

From your reply # 16:
“Let me be clear that I know nothing other than what I have been told, and I know nothing about this, and I never claimed to know anything.  I am just trying to get some clarification from those who have experience.”
“Surely it was pretty clear in my OP when I stated:  "Now, keep in mind, I am not claiming that I am an expert on this, or even claiming that what I typed above is even correct."

If you really mean what you say and you noticed that my experience was in conflict with your opinion, why do I need to state that it is in conflict?

Your comments in your reply # 5 and now again in your reply # 16 lead me to believe that you are not sincere about your statement; “Let me be clear that I know nothing other than what I have been told, and I know nothing about this, and I never claimed to know anything.  I am just trying to get some clarification from those who have experience.” That you are in fact just fishing for experiences/opinions which agree with you and anyone who doesn't agree or has a different experience, you are not interested to hear. So be it, but I hope I don't “ruffle your feathers” too much if I stand on my own experiences and values.

Horosho?

PS: I AM up for debate on this subject or to compare notes.

[Faux Pas]

So how did all these young FSUW get to the U.S.? IMO they probably came in saying they were going to work as an Au Pair, and then went straight to work in the strip clubs of NY and LA. 

   

Phil I only direct this question at you because you may be able to provide a more logical answer than many but, how is it the mafioso both in Russia and the US are able to obtain so many and so easily visas for the strippers they bring? I never seen a question or an answer for that.

[Phil dAmore]

Gylden:

Thanks for the info.  Understand that my attempts at getting Nina a visa were well over 7 years ago so perhaps things have changed since that time.  

However I stand by my comment that one can have all the documentation in the world, apostilled  by God himself and if an applicant gets a Consular officer who is a d!ck, that applicant will be denied.  

As I recall, Nina got never got to the interview stage. They took one look at her brand-new international passport, said 'no' and sent her away.

During the years I lived in St. Petersburg I would go to the Consulate about once a year and plead my case to whoever happened to be working at that time. It was never the same person, but always the same answer.

I once asked the OOD why the United States had policies that allowed anyone who could jump a fence or wade across a shallow river, or  float up from Cuba on an innertube and set a foot on the beach, or arrive from Laos in a shipping container- when I asked why these people are allowed to stay in the U.S., but an English-speaking degreed professional wasn't worthy of consideration for a 30 day tourist visa, I received my answer by being escorted out of the Consulate by U.S. Marines.

Faux Pas:

How do they do it?  The same way it works the world over my friend.  Money talks. One of the things I learned rather quickly about Russians is they believe that everything and everyone is for sale and the only barrier is in the negotiating process.  IME they are correct.  While the U.S. may have more safeguards, checks and balances and procedures against visa fraud the bottom line is that someone, somewhere has to make the call.  

While cash payments alone may not persuade someone to approve a visa, perhaps a threat to their family might.  Everyone has a pressure point, all that is required is for a someone to find that point and squeeze.

[Phil dAmore]

oops. double post

[Chicagoguy]

I always liked the U.S. policy until it applied to me and Russian women    It seems to me that many of these interviewers do not have a soul. That said, when it was time for the K-1,  my wife said the American interviewer couldn't have been nicer, but she was listening to a woman interviewer next to her and said she was nasty.

This was 1 year ago in Moscow but I am guessing it is the same everywhere.