When its not just about you and her

[CharlesR]

As I mentioned in my introduction. My girl and I are planning to be married in the near future. She has a 4yr. son who has never met his father. When she discussed with this man the possibility that she may move to the US, he talked about a "pay off" as a way of making things run smoothly, by not contesting it. Its hard to understand how such a smart, and beautiful woman could get involved with such a man, but like her, I 've been in relationships I wish I never had. From what I gather, this is not uncommon, and just another reason why her opinion of men in her country is so low.
I could meet his expectations, but I could also make the move to Moldova, and he not get a dime. And considering the fact that she has more family there than I do here, and sparing her parents the pain of losing their only grandchild, I may just do that. These are big decisions. They are tough, and they are very real. But for me to say.... come on, let me rip you away from your family without regards to their feelings, would be inconsiderate in the highest form. Moldova is not like a prison that she's trying to escape from, but more about finding a man who's morals, and values exceed what she sees, and is reminded of daily.  Anyway, the purpose of this thread is just to kind of give everyone an idea of where I'm at, and some of the realities that come along with our choice to look abroad. 

[BC]

One aspect that you should take a look at is that whatever agreement you reach it should be agreed to in a legal manner and with a court order revoking his parental rights permanently.

Some countries do require court documents showing the mother as the sole legal guardian for residency permits etc.  One can even be questioned about it when traveling, or when applying for passports.

A 'back room' deal can lead to trouble with future visits home where the father could assert his legal rights for a 'second helping', even if the agreement was notarized.

[BillyB]

Charles, just as you assume your lady's ex is thinking about money, her ex may think she's moving to America for money too. When negotiating with the guy, don't accuse him of being greedy. Sit down and talk to him about how you will take car of the son and help him grow and that you will encourage the son to contact the father often.

One guy at this forum said the ex did not want to give in and they said he'd have to keep the kid. The ex ended up signing the paperwork without a fight since he didn't want the child in his life. Maybe he didn't want the hassle of taking care of the kid or he didn't want to put up with the cost of taking care of the kid. Of course that only works if the ex doesn't care about his children. IF he cares about his children then he is making a great sacrifice if he lets his child go to America. My ex needs my permission to move to another State since kids are involved. I wouldn't give her my permission since I like seeing my kids occasionally and bribe money wouldn't even influence my decision. Just be thankful he's not taking a hard line stance as I would. the fact you can move and live in Moldova opens up options for you to be together with your lady and she can remain together with her child.

[kievstar]

I would advise you not sitting down with him face to face.  Based on your writing you seem to be a little pissed off and hot headed.  Last thing you want to do is get in a fist fight on foreign soil.  You have no idea the connections this guy may or may not have.  I doubt he is some bum that your girlfriend slept with and probably has more social status and influence than you think.

[Chicagoguy]

I have never been to Moldova but dated a girl from there and she was not happy with it. Last Sunmmer my wife became friends with two younger girls from Moldova working on temp. visas in the vacation town where we have a Summer home. And they both said they hated their country. Said it was run like Russia when Stalin was there. They were going to overstay their visas and not return home.

So if you really want to live there I would investigate it carefully.

[mies]

...As I mentioned in my introduction. My girl and I are planning to be married in the near future. She has a 4yr. son who has never met his father. When she discussed with this man the possibility that she may move to the US, he talked about a "pay off" as a way of making things run smoothly, by not contesting it.

http://gutta-honey.livejournal.com/tag/%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B4
this is a blog of a russian woman who obtained court decision to revoke parental rights of her ex-husband. It was not easy, court was giving preferential treatment to the ex-husband, and expressed unjustified negativity towards this woman. Even though, her ex in no way participated in the life of the kid, never paid child-support, and was happy to give up his parental rights - until this woman decided to marry a foreigner. Then he thought - he can give her hard time. She almost lost her hope, but luckily - her ex was jerk not only with her, but with judges/lawyers as well. And the human factor contributed - when judge decided that the ex should lose his parental rights.  
This woman describes the legal battle and the whole process in some detail in her blog entries. Maybe you can send the link to your fiancee, and she will find in this blog some useful information or advice about the process.

[CharlesR]

Thanks, I've enjoyed reading your opinions, and you are all right.

BC, you certainly have a good point, and there will be no under the table business deal done between us.

Billy B, It's very possible that he's thinking she's in it for the money. It's an angle I didn't even consider. The fact that he hasn't seen this child speaks volumes. I can respect your position involving your child, but this is not the issue with him. Just more like "whats in it for me?" Yes its true he could make it very difficult, but one way or the other we will be together.  

Kievstar, you would be right in assuming im a little upset, but not to the point I would act on my thoughts. ( I would hope) I also agree with you in that a sit down convo would be useless. Reassuring him that his child would be taken care of is not his concern IMO. She lives in Bender, and he in Tiraspol, and they had only spoke over the phone, and for this purpose.  Its just not normal to never see your child, and be concerned for his welfare at the same time. Had he cared at all about the child then maybe I could see him trying to use some influence whatever it may be. She and I no doubt will discuss this further, as we decide on where we will reside. Thanks  

[mies]

She and I no doubt will discuss this further, as we decide on where we will reside. Thanks  

No matter where you will reside - until this guy is legally her "father" - you will have to ask for his permission whenever you want to go for vacation abroad. And he may be asking you for extra "pay-offs", or will be making you adjust your vacation schedule, - just to give you hard time.
You will also need to ask for his permission for any important decision about this child, including some cases of medical treatment. He may request that he can visit the child - not because he wants to visit his child, but just to do something unpleasant to you and this woman. It's a real hassle. If you don't want this guy to be in your family "forever", the extra family member - you need to have his rights revoked via court, no matter in which country you plan to live. He already asked for pay-off - that shows perfectly what kind of person he is. He isn't interested in the child, he is only interested in opportunities for him. And he is neither reliable nor good person.

[CharlesR]

No matter where you will reside - until this guy is legally her "father" - you will have to ask for his permission whenever you want to go for vacation abroad. And he may be asking you for extra "pay-offs", or will be making you adjust your vacation schedule, - just to give you hard time.
You will also need to ask for his permission for any important decision about this child, including some cases of medical treatment. He may request that he can visit the child - not because he wants to visit his child, but just to do something unpleasant to you and this woman. It's a real hassle. If you don't want this guy to be in your family "forever", the extra family member - you need to have his rights revoked via court, no matter in which country you plan to live. He already asked for pay-off - that shows perfectly what kind of person he is. He isn't interested in the child, he is only interested in opportunities for him. And he is neither reliable nor good person.

I'll send the link Mies. Thank you. I'm new to this child costody/parental rights stuff. We don't need him in our lives thats for sure. I see him as guilty on all counts as well. thanks again.

[mies]

yvw and Good luck, Charles

[BillyB]

The fact that he hasn't seen this child speaks volumes.

If he hasn't paid child support either, you may have a fighting chance in a Moldovian court to strip him of his rights. You have to weigh the pros and cons. Court and an attorney could be costly, time consuming and there are no guarantees that you will win but paying off the father may be cheaper without having to waste too much time and he said he's willing to give you what you want. You could also hire some corupt cops to persuade him.   How much is he asking for? No matter how you look at this, it's going to cost you money. I'm sure your lady greatly respects you for willing to stay with her through these problems.

 I think one reason some men like myself don't target FSU women with children is to avoid the hassles you're going through. I'm still young enough and willing to have children so it's no problem for me to find single ladies who still want kids.

[Faux Pas]

I have never been to Moldova but dated a girl from there and she was not happy with it. Last Sunmmer my wife became friends with two younger girls from Moldova working on temp. visas in the vacation town where we have a Summer home. And they both said they hated their country. Said it was run like Russia when Stalin was there. They were going to overstay their visas and not return home.

So if you really want to live there I would investigate it carefully.

Charles,

Lots of good advice in this thread. If you are seriously considering a move to Moldova, I would read this one again. I'm sure you are aware that visiting Moldova and living the day to day grind in Moldova are two entirely different cup-o-joes. Moldova is currently one of the most unstable countries of the FSU and Europe. Below most of the 'Stans. Love does not necessarily conquer all.

It seems you are in a situation with the child several others who have been on RWD have experienced also. Look back into the archives. Might be some helpful info there as well. My guess is, if you have the means and wherewithall to make a move to Moldova, you likely have what it takes to maneuver this situation to your liking without making such a drastic change of lifestyle to Moldova.

Good Luck

[SMS60]

Its tempting to blow some steam here????? but.........I will be mild.

Charles

Have you talked to her about moving to Moldova? I will venture to say once you bring this up she will vanish like a fart in the wind. Unless you told her your loaded and will buy the biggest house in her city.

[facetrock]

 CharlesR, you talk about ripping her away from her family. What about yours? I have been to Moldova and unless you have some kind of job you can do there, speak the language and are already financially secure it will be tough sledding. Then there are the issues of immigration and how long you can stay as an American citizen. In my opinion Moldova should not even be a country, most locals I talked to wish they would have joined Romania long ago. The country is beyond broke, corrupt, infrastructure falling apart, far worse than Ukraine or Russia.
   In the last year and a half they had huge riots in Chisinau and the IMF is already bailing them out, zilch for natural resources and small in terms of square miles. It is also the poorest country in Europe. Then there is the Transniestia(spelling?) issue that includes Tirispol. They basically want nothing to do with Moldova and its not because there are lots of Russians there. Almost half the population is ethinic Moldovans. Moldova is basically a small failed state in the middle of nowhere that the rest of the world could not give a rats ass about. It might seem clean and nice to you but the reality of living there would suck IMO.
  You could give your wife and her child a far better life in the USA.

[CharlesR]

Its tempting to blow some steam here????? but.........I will be mild.

Charles

Have you talked to her about moving to Moldova? I will venture to say once you bring this up she will vanish like a fart in the wind. Unless you told her your loaded and will buy the biggest house in her city.

She is the one who proposed that I move there. This is a genuine relationship with real feelings involved on both sides. Lets just assume that I'm telling the truth, and leave it at that. I understand how what you described could happen in a situation such as this, but not in this one. I've known her for 3 yrs, made the trip twice, and I didnt meet her on a dating site. Not all of these women are dying to leave their country. She's 36, I'm 39, we both know what we want out of life, and what we expect from each other. Such a thing can happen. I dont see what is so strange about someone being comfortable where they live, and not be out to take you for everything youve got. You dont miss what youve never had, and  I can pass the scamming threads up. What we have is solid, and what we have will work.

[CharlesR]

CharlesR, you talk about ripping her away from her family. What about yours? I have been to Moldova and unless you have some kind of job you can do there, speak the language and are already financially secure it will be tough sledding. Then there are the issues of immigration and how long you can stay as an American citizen. In my opinion Moldova should not even be a country, most locals I talked to wish they would have joined Romania long ago. The country is beyond broke, corrupt, infrastructure falling apart, far worse than Ukraine or Russia.
   In the last year and a half they had huge riots in Chisinau and the IMF is already bailing them out, zilch for natural resources and small in terms of square miles. It is also the poorest country in Europe. Then there is the Transniestia(spelling?) issue that includes Tirispol. They basically want nothing to do with Moldova and its not because there are lots of Russians there. Almost half the population is ethinic Moldovans. Moldova is basically a small failed state in the middle of nowhere that the rest of the world could not give a rats ass about. It might seem clean and nice to you but the reality of living there would suck IMO.
  You could give your wife and her child a far better life in the USA.

I understand you completely facetrock, and going by your checklist I could fare well. I'm simply saying that here or there we can make it work, and I certainly wouldnt discard her because she wouldnt, or couldnt come to the states. I suppose it just comes down to what your willing to tolarate. These are only ideas. They are not written in stone. I'm looking at every angle, and thank you.

[Vaughn]

Charles ~ a key question ~ to which it's important you know the answer...

Is the natural father listed on the child's birth certificate?

[Boethius]

I suspect the natural father is listed, or he would not be making demands.

Billy, reread mies' posts.  Courts in FSU countries generally don't terminate parental rights for something such as non payment of child support.

Charles, offer him a quarter or half of what you're willing to shell out.  Your fiancee, or better, her father/brother/other close male relatiave should do the negotiating.  He will likely balk, but it is important to haggle.  This will be the easiest, or the most efficient way, to get rid of him.

[Vaughn]

I suspect the natural father is listed, or he would not be making demands.

Perhaps, perhaps not. He smells a payoff, that's all. The absence of the father's name
on the certificate renders his rights nearly non-existent in Moldova.

Hiring a capable and trustworthy attorney tilts the tables in her favor as well. Suddenly
the father is dealing with someone who knows local law and can make things quite uncomfy,
all the while keeping negotiations above board as many have recommended here.

[Boethius]

Having dealt with the Ukrainian judicial system, the notion of "above board" is really theory, nothing more.  I once sent my MIL a big sum of cash.  Surprise, surprise, my nephew was arrested the next week on trumped up charges, which the judge stated would "disappear" if a bribe which oddly, was exactly the amount of cash I sent, was paid.  I have more stories on client experiences.  Of all of them, only one is positive (client won, after several years, and tens of thousands of dollars stolen from his Ukrainian joint venture by his Ukrainian co-venturers). 

I doubt Moldova is much different. 

Not having a father listed on a birth certificate is considered shameful in many parts of the FSU.  The fact this man wants a pay off suggests to me he is listed, but you're right, it should be queried. 

I would not entrust my future to the judicial systems of these countries.  Were I in Charles' position, you bet I would pay a bribe, AFTER he had signed off his parental rights.

[Jumper]

Boethius - is giving very sound advise ,by everyone i have heard or known, that has been in a similar position there.

[CharlesR]

Thank you to all. I'm going to have this discussion with her again soon, asking some key questions that have been brought up by those of you here. I like this, and this is what its all about. Bouncing thoughts, opinions, and ideas off of each other. I'll come back and share my newfound information once I have it. Today is beautiful outside, so I'm gonna take advantage of it while I can. Have a great day! 

[BillyB]

Billy, reread mies' posts.  Courts in FSU countries generally don't terminate parental rights for something such as non payment of child support.

Boethius, I've been reading these forums for over 5 years and read enough RW say a RM not paying child support or basically being a deatbeat father can be stripped of his parental rights. The FSU isn't one country, it is a bunch of countries that have different jurisdictions and different ways of doing things. Reread what I said to Charles. There's no guarantee he'll win if using the court system. I will add there is a chance he could win. He needs to talk to an attorney in Moldova that specializes in family law to give him a more realistic opinion if he can win.

BTW, Mies did say "If you don't want this guy to be in your family "forever", the extra family member - you need to have his rights revoked via court, no matter in which country you plan to live." I think I and her are on the same page.

[Jack]

CharlesR, my experience in these matters is very similar to Boethius.  He is giving some good advice.

I have seen many times where men who had fathered a child, had nothing to do with a child, never paid support for a child, hears his long time ex-wife is leaving for another country and suddenly emerges from nowhere and all of a sudden wants the child in his life, does not want the child leaving for a foreign country.   This really got bad in the late 90's in Russia and Russia eventually made some laws that halted to a degree these deadbeat fathers who appeared from no where blackmailing, and that's exactly what it was, blackmailing this foreign man to pay a ransom so he would sign over permission for his child to leave the country.

About 4 years later Ukraine copied some of these new procedures after it also was hit with a wave of these blackmailing deadbeat fathers.

Today in Ukraine if the father is not willing to sign his permission for his child to leave the country then the woman will have to take this to court. Chances are she will win unless the father (1) has some money, (2) is in law enforcement, (3) is in military, (4) knows the right people. If any of those four circumstances exist the woman is going to be disappointed with the results.

I have seen many times over the last few years where the foreign man just agreed to pay a fee to the childs father, I have seen from $500 to $2000, and it was taken care of. No court, no bs. 

I think the same is probably true for Moldova.

[SMS60]

Charles, offer him a quarter or half of what you're willing to shell out.  Your fiancee, or better, her father/brother/other close male relatiave should do the negotiating.  He will likely balk, but it is important to haggle.  This will be the easiest, or the most efficient way, to get rid of him.

Uhhh?? You probably didn't mean this?

This is terrible advice. If there is any negotiating it should be done by the mother and not Charles. He should not have his finger prints on anything like this. It could backfire big time. This is a slippery slope you dont want to go down.

This is on the same level as human trafficking. You are paying money for the right to take a child out of their country. If the guy is a snake he could do a lot of damage.

Try and do it legally.