When its not just about you and her

[mies]

GQ

Don't misunderstand what I am saying. I don't think that a mother shouldn't do it. Obviously, most all situations will be different. I think that a mother should keep the interest of the child on the forefront. Now, if a mother is in a foreign relationship and sees relocation as imminent, likely it would be in the best interest of the child to migrate with the mother as opposed to staying with a worthless Yuri and clinging to hope that he will change. She should take the steps to see that that happens asap.

OTOH, just because she signs up at a marriage agency with high hopes doesn't mean she is relocating abroad or getting remarried. Prince Charming may never find her. In this case she has severed the child's ties to worthless Yuri and the child has no hope of that father figure in it's widdle life. IMO that wouldn't be in the best interest of the kid but in the best interest of the mother or the elusive Prince Charming.

agree 100%

[Boethius]

Billy, the mentalities of people are still fairly similar across the FSU, having been "indoctrinated" for 50-70 years.

Vaughn, there are many unemployed or underemployed men who do not support their children financially, yet maintain relationships with them.  I don't think this is one of those cases.  The child is only four.  I would be hesitant to rely solely on a court for an outcome.  Laws on the books, and what happens IRL can often be very different, and Moldova is quite corrupt.

Gator, sole custody and the termination of parental rights are very different concepts.  Historically,women in FSU countries were awarded sole custody, and men had few rights to access their children.  This was solely in the mother's discretion. I suspect, in the absence of addiction, that this is the reason many men today don't form relationshipis with their children.  I would even bet that many of those men grew up in divorced families with an alcohol addicted father.  But, as mies pointed out, there are many cultural reasons women with custody would not wish to terminate a father's parental rights.  

[BillyB]

And the most effective muscle is that of the attorney. Just my opinion, but the lady
might be the absolute worst at negotiating termination - what with all the emotions
and bitterness (by either or both parties) that a face to face would invite.

If the ex husband can afford an attorney, then he has effective muscle too and if he wins in court, Charles and his lady will have to settle out of court for much more money I'm sure. The ex will not only want them to pay for his attorney bills but extra money for the hassles they put him through.

A lady may be bad at negotiating since emotions may have her say something bittler and bringing up the ugly past will only make things worst but something has to happen.

If a lady could keep a straight face and bluff, she should ask her ex husband to sign the documents or he would have to take care of the child if he doesn't allow the child to go. She should present him with two documents prepared by an attorney. One allowing the child to go and one assuming all responsibility for the child including financial responsibility on the date of her departure.

[facetrock]

   I agree with BillyB. Why let someone negotiate with the man that already has a proven bad history with him? I would go with an interpretor and deal with the guy without his ex anywhere around. Keep her out of it.
  You would almost act as a mediator because he really doesnt know you. Better yet would be to use a mediator if you could find one you could trust. Mediators are common in lawsuits in the USA.
    Putting the two exes together to come to an agreement might be a disaster. Old emotions, contempt and even hatred could be dredged up again creating a shit storm and making everything far harder.
 

[mies]

...

How can OP negotiate if he has no idea what is he negotiating about, does not speak local language, does not know local traditions, is not officially related in any way to this woman nor to the child, AND is a foreigner with temporary status in the country and very limited rights? What if the ex- will start a fight, what if they both will be arrested? Or just OP will be arrested? Do you know who this ex- is? Maybe he is a criminal? or maybe works in militsia? I mean - how can you give this kind of advices?

I am not sure this is very good idea. Hiring for negotiation an ex-militia or ex-KGP employee would be far better idea. Many of these people work as "security head" in various business organizations, and they are very efficient in solving disputes.

[Gylden]

Just when you think things couldn't get worse.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/09/russia-urges-adoption-freeze-american-returns-boy/?test=latestnews

[BillyB]

How can OP negotiate if he has no idea what is he negotiating about, does not speak local language, does not know local traditions, is not officially related in any way to this woman nor to the child, AND is a foreigner with temporary status in the country and very limited rights? What if the ex- will start a fight, what if they both will be arrested? Or just OP will be arrested?

If Charles wants to excercise the option to talk the the ex husband, his lady should first ask her ex if he wants to meet Charles. Some ex's may feel comfortable meeting the ex wifes new man since that new man will be in their child's life. If anybody cares about their child, they should care who's going to be living in the same house as their child.

Maybe the ex doesn't speak English but if Charles has good manners, he may make a good impression. Charles should not say anything that will insult the ex such as implying he will be a good father and will provide a better life for the child. Saying he'll do better for the child will only insult the father. What Charles could say is that he will try his best to make sure the child contacts the ex on a regular basis and always know who the real father is and let the child visit occasionally. They should meet in a neutral place, not at the lady or her ex husbands home.

Just when you think things couldn't get worse.

http://www.foxnews.com/wo...urns-boy/?test=latestnews

I remember in Novosibirsk seeing a couple, probably from Midwest America based by the way they were dressed sitting at a table next to mine a the hotel restaurant. They had a Russain boy and girl and I was sure they were going to adopt them. The chidren were excited to eat all the nice food on the table and the couple, old enough to be their grandparents, were watching them with adoring eyes. The children were happy to have parents and a new life and the parents happy to have the children.

It's a shame if the Russian government looks at a few bad cases and stops adoption. They should not criticize what bad things parents who adopt do since they are considering doing something bad themselves.

[CharlesR]

Ok, heres what I know at this point. The father is NOT on the childs birth certificate, he has not seen the child, never sends money, or gifts etc..... He HAS tried many times to get her to have a DNA done, but she refuses. She has no idea why he wants to do this as he has never taken any initiative to bond with the child. The child is definatly being used here.

[Gator]

.....The father is NOT on the childs birth certificate....

End of story for this man.  His permission is not needed.

However, this is not the end of the story for you.  For the boy to immigrate to the USA your fiancee will have to demonstrate the  consent of the man listed as father.

My wife encountered a delay because the "father" had been missing for a few years.  She had to wait for the police and another ministry to conduct a search of records about the missing man.

[BillyB]

Ok, heres what I know at this point. The father is NOT on the childs birth certificate, he has not seen the child, never sends money, or gifts etc..... He HAS tried many times to get her to have a DNA done, but she refuses. She has no idea why he wants to do this as he has never taken any initiative to bond with the child. The child is definatly being used here.

Charles, what I highlighted in bold is a red flag. Too many women out there don't want a father to be in the child's life no matter if the father wants to try. The father wants evidence the child is his but your lady refuses. Did she commit adultry? Maybe the father wants to be on the birth certificate and have legal rights to see the child but your lady is refusing. Unfortunately some women or men use the children to hurt the other parent. Not good. You might want to find out if your lady is vindictive in this way because it could affect you if ever your relationship goes sour. If you want to see how bad people can get, just look at how they act at the end of a relationship.

[Boethius]

He could have developed a relationship without a DNA test as well.  She also may have refused to put him on the birth certificate to protect her child, particularly if she knows he won't pay child support.

[BillyB]

He could have developed a relationship without a DNA test as well.  She also may have refused to put him on the birth certificate to protect her child, particularly if she knows he won't pay child support.

Charles's lady is in control of the child. She has more of a say if the child is in his/her father's life. Why do you think the ex husband asked for a DNA test? Obviously he thinks his ex wife cheated on him and he doesn't want to pay child support or be in the child's life until he is positive it is his child. Sounds fair to me. It's important to determine which man is the real father of the child and then that man should pay child support and be a father to that child. You say he should develop a relationship with a child who he never seen or may not be his? That's not fair to him or the child as the child will be deceived all their life by his/her mother on who the real father is.

[Boethius]

I don't think they were married.

As mies pointed out, in many FSU countries (Ukraine and Moldova, for example), a child can be held legally responsible for a parent, meaning they have to provide support in old age.  I knew a woman who terminated a father's parental rights solely for that reason, though her sons were already in their late teens.  

There can be many reasons this woman has not bowed to the man's requests.  You have to remember that these are very patriarchal societies, with customs and mores which are very different from those in the West.  I can think of plenty of reasons why a woman would do this there, which would be irrelevant in the West.

[BillyB]

There can be many reasons this woman has not bowed to the man's requests.

Regardless, don't you think the child has a right to know who the real father is and have him listed on his or her birth certificate? Just because two people broke up don't mean they have to play games with the kids. Get the DNA test done and if the ex is indeed the father and still doesn't want to be in the childs life or pay child support, then we can call him a "deadbeat". I don't expect him or any man have to spend time, emotion and money on another man's child. It's not fair to him and not fair to the child being deceived on who their real father is.

[Boethius]

Yes, I do think a child has a right to know his/her father.

When I told my (FSU) husband this story, he rolled his eyes and said "Spare me.  A DNA test in Moldova?"   He does think someone is trying to fleece you, Charles.

[mies]

Ok, heres what I know at this point. The father is NOT on the childs birth certificate, he has not seen the child, never sends money, or gifts etc..... He HAS tried many times to get her to have a DNA done, but she refuses. She has no idea why he wants to do this as he has never taken any initiative to bond with the child. The child is definatly being used here.

if he isn't on child's birth certificate - he has no say. Legally - he is nobody - some random dude from the street. I do not understand why your wife had to discuss with her ex the relocation. Right now - she can stop the discussion and just ignore him. Or tell him "this isn't your child - i lied to you in the past"
He probably may request via court genetic expertise, but it takes time, and if he doesn't have strings to pull - she may already be living with you in USA by then.

Behavior of your woman is EXTREMELY strange to me. I agree with Boethius.  

[mies]

End of story for this man.  His permission is not needed.

However, this is not the end of the story for you.  For the boy to immigrate to the USA your fiancee will have to demonstrate the  consent of the man listed as father.

My wife encountered a delay because the "father" had been missing for a few years.  She had to wait for the police and another ministry to conduct a search of records about the missing man.

what if no "father" was listed at birth certificate? Some women don't list any father at all.

[CharlesR]

I see your side BillyB, What I do know is that they were never married, and that while she was pregnant, he had kicked her, drank alot, having to pick him up off ther floor many times. Yeah, I do know how it goes after a relationship goes sour. We split up for a year, reconciling not too long ago, seeing how we were still in love with each other. She's not the type to pull that crap, although I do know a few personally who are.

[mies]

She's not the type to pull that crap, although I do know a few personally who are.

- her ex kicked her out while she was pregnant
- she gave birth to child alone, and the name of the man does not appear at birth certificate. man has no legal rights for this child
this first part is quite credible. the following events may or may not have happened.

- some time later - man starts demanding genetic expertise. He want's to know if this is his child.
- woman takes her revenge and does not allow to make genetic expertise. for some reason - his interest to find out if this was his child she took as "no interest in child".  ok, also understandable.
- man (continuing being a jerk) tells he isn't going to pay money for the child that isn't his, and doesn't support the child. Technically - he doesn't have to support this child - he is nobody to the child, the child is nobody to him.

now - the most interesting part begins.
- woman meets Charles, and plans to relocate to USA
- woman - for unclear reasons - finds her ex, and tells him that she plans to take child to USA, and asks his permission (???? WHY??? to take more revenge at ex and make him jealous? she never cared if ex knows the child, why care now?)
- ex (accordingly to women's words) demands ransom
- woman (again, for unclear reasons) - does not question his demands, even though she knows that legally - her ex is not related to the child. Instead of telling it to ex, and leaving it at that -
- woman tells Charles that ex asks for ransom.

 

the details in last part of the story - just do not add up.
the random guesses of my wild imagination:
- she is just testing Charles
- she has her own play (maybe wants Charles to come to live in Moldova? though not very likely)
- she just wants this ransom, she never contacted her ex, she isn't going to marry Charles
- she wants her parents/family to keep this ransom, or keep it herself as a "safety cushion" for her trip, she never contacted ex
- she is just not very smart and very unpredictable. she contacted ex to take emotional revenge. She doesn't know that he has no rights to demand ransom. If she is still emotionally bonded to her ex- how will it work with hew family and relocation?


Charles - tell her that her ex has no rights towards the child, because his name doesn't appear on birth certificate, and therefore - his permission isn't needed. To avoid conflict and unnecessary complications - she may "tell the ex" - that because of the ransom demand - the relocation process stalled, without further explanations.

[mies]

If Charles wants to excercise the option to talk the the ex husband, his lady should first ask her ex if he wants to meet Charles. Some ex's may feel comfortable meeting the ex wifes new man since that new man will be in their child's life. If anybody cares about their child, they should care who's going to be living in the same house as their child.

Maybe the ex doesn't speak English but if Charles has good manners, he may make a good impression. Charles should not say anything that will insult the ex such as implying he will be a good father and will provide a better life for the child. Saying he'll do better for the child will only insult the father. What Charles could say is that he will try his best to make sure the child contacts the ex on a regular basis and always know who the real father is and let the child visit occasionally. They should meet in a neutral place, not at the lady or her ex husbands home.

Billy, imagine you are dating russian woman, she has a child. She tells you her ex is a russian gang member, and he requires ransom for a child. Will you go to meet him and try to get his respect - while he is armed and you are not, while he is at his ground, and you are an alien there?

[SMS60]

- woman tells Charles that ex asks for ransom.

Charles enters dimly lit cafe and meets up with ex. The ex introduces himself as ex (?). The ex asks for $10,000 cash to give permission for child to travel to the US. Charles hands over the roll (money). The ex stuffs the roll in his jacket and exits out the back door and disappears. Charles is left sitting in the cafe with a blank stare. Pondering what just happened.

Charles immediatly calls fiancee. She repeats over and over...... I dont understand..... I dont know......I dont know............ I dont understand........What?

Charles now realizes he's been had. He can do nothing.

Cant go to the authorities. He is in a strange country with no rights or knowlege of how the system works. If they do listen they will see that he was trying to buy a child to take to the US. (human trafficking) for his girlfreind.........Most places illegal. They could throw Charles in the tank. Charles does not even know if the ex was the real ex.. I doubt they read each others passports.

He's done.

Dont get involved Charles...... Stay out of it.

[mies]

Charles enters dimly lit cafe and meets up with ex. The ex introduces himself as ex (?). The ex asks for $10,000 cash to give permission for child to travel to the US. Charles hands over the roll (money). The ex stuffs the roll in his jacket and exits out the back door and disappears. Charles is left sitting in the cafe with a blank stare. Pondering what just happened.

Charles immediatly calls fiancee. She repeats over and over...... I dont understand..... I dont know......I dont know............ I dont understand........What?

Charles now realizes he's been had. He can do nothing.

Cant go to the authorities. He is in a strange country with no rights or knowlege of how the system works. If they do listen they will see that he was trying to buy a child to take to the US. (human trafficking) for his girlfreind.........Most places illegal. They could throw Charles in the tank. Charles does not even know if the ex was the real ex.. I doubt they read each others passports.

He's done.

Dont get involved Charles...... Stay out of it.

exactly.

[BillyB]

Billy, imagine you are dating russian woman, she has a child. She tells you her ex is a russian gang member, and he requires ransom for a child. Will you go to meet him and try to get his respect - while he is armed and you are not, while he is at his ground, and you are an alien there?

Most of the people I associate with tend to have enough wisdom to not get romatically involved with criminal minds.... but if things were as you say and I felt the man needed to meet me to get results, I would meet him as the father of my lady's child, not as if he were an ex gang member. I joined the military during a war. I'm not afraid to die and gang members certainly don't scare me. During basic training, it was the ex gang members who were the first to cry that they can't handle the military.

[CharlesR]

Most of the people I associate with tend to have enough wisdom to not get romatically involved with criminal minds.... but if things were as you say and I felt the man needed to meet me to get results, I would meet him as the father of my lady's child, not as if he were an ex gang member. I joined the military during a war. I'm not afraid to die and gang members certainly don't scare me. During basic training, it was the ex gang members who were the first to cry that they can't handle the military.

I have to agree here. The whole not meeting up with the ex thing seems to be ran on fear in some opinions. Having been a bodybuilder for 6 years, i can look somewhat intimidating (although Im really a good guy) but I have to agree, sometimes you have to walk like you "got a pair" and do what you gotta do. Marriage is still a ways off, and more will be discussed on the matter,and I'll post as i find, but I  appreciate the concern from you guys. Lot of good stuff here, but what ever happends, I can assure you I'll be fine.

[mies]

Billy and Charles - you both missed the point that I was trying to make - most likely I was not clear enough.
My point isn't about "acting like a man" and "showing off you muscles".
I was not saying that this woman is related to criminals.
What i was saying - you don't have a slightest idea who this "ex" is - if he exist and is indeed is asking for ransom. It is particularly unwise to mess with a total stranger, planning to "buy a child from his father" in a foreign country.

Billy - you don't really think that criminals and their women wear some kind of marking on their forehead. In many cases - people may be doing crimes, yet never are convicted, or aren't convicted right away. Taking bribes, making fake documents and evidence, threatening the rival business owner or/and his family, financial crimes, legal crimes, the shady areas of selling stolen items (cell phones to cars), real estate raiders, - you name it. When I was a teenager - our family was threatened several times because of business/money. The people who ordered it are respectable businessmen, and nobody calls them criminals. Yet paying bouncers to threat a family - is a crime. Imagine a foreigner (you, or Charles) with no real back-up approaches one of the guys like this and tries to "act like a man" and "get respect from them". You don't know their rules of the game, and you aren't the one to set your own rules. Plus - you are trying to violate the laws of the country too - by "paying for the child".