Life Changes...Part Deux

[mies]

mies,

Just to be clear, the disparagement I was referencing was NOT coming from Billy - it was from SteveOR yesterday.

- Dan

Yes, i understood that. I just added my voice to tell Steve (indirectly) that not only Boethius reads Billy's posts in a certain way, and responds in a certain way. Some other people (for example, me) read Billy's posts exactly same way as Boethius does, and would respond him with nearly same words, had Billy's posts been directed to them.

So there is some division in perceptions and opinions. It's not a point for an argument, only a mere observation, made peacefully.

[SteveOR]

Steve,  I may question the objectivity of your summary but the entertainment value is excellent.

Thanks Turbo.  It was as much as anything a snarky attempt at humor.  Some folks got it.  Others, well not so much.
 
I don't know if you've noticed or not but the temperature of this thread has cooled a little making it much more enjoyable to read.
 
Now, if we could just get past that 16, 17 or 18 year old thing we'd be all set.  I'm hoping that Billy will set the record straight in one of his next posts.  How old was A when she was first contacted by Billy?  How old was she when they first met?  Hey this is really important stuff here folks and by golly we just gotta know! <Insert emoticon here for the benefit of the humor impaired>. . .
 
 
 

[SteveOR]

Sorry for being rude, I lost my patience. As you noticed I deleted my comment, she is only 18, a husband of her own age will grow up and mature with her; she would do the same things 18 yesrs old do - have lots of teenage frends, going out, flirt. Did she actually have a chance to discover what she wants?  etc etc etc. It is things an 18 yo should do in our cultures. Instead it will be a marriage which "older" people have. As Billy obviously is going to be a head of the family and he knows how the family should run.
 
And yes, teenage years are only to be experienced once. And it's a shame to spend them looking after much older husband, cooking and cleaning.

Ranetka-
 
You may have hit at the core of many of the age difference concerns that are often discussed on this board but rarely if ever solved.  Most relationships here are or will have an age difference that is fairly large by Western standards and what does that mean to the woman?  Probably not as much as you might think.
 
Time passes for all of us.  In some respects it passes faster for women than for men.  The amount of time that a women has to become a mother is surprisingly short.  While a man can become a father over a much greater time span.  So maybe having the opportunity to marry and have a family is one that can't easily be passed by.  Even for an 18 year old woman who has that opportunity with a 40 something year old man.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about A.  She will get a gainfully employed husband who appears from his posts here to have a history of treating women well and will probably work hard on the relationship.  Does she loose some youth in the process?  Sure.  But the gains likely outweigh the loss. . .
 
-Steve
 
 

[Ade]

No, I am really not forgetting her age at 17 when they first began communicating. I *am* reminded of the fact that no crime was committed - and that considers the Canadian reference you support. I am also reminded of the fact that you are not claiming "child grooming" was in play.

What does that leave?

- Dan

And yes, I agree that in all probability there was nothing illegal taking place. However, it leaves the potential for exploitation. Some would argue, and I tend to agree, that the very nature of this relationship is nothing but exploitative.

What I would ask of you Dan, is what do you think about middle aged men using your forum to encourage others to pursue sexual relationships with 17 year old girls on the internet? Do you think it's a wise thing? Do you think that these relationships are likely to flourish? And yes, I know there are rare situations where they do and even some cultures where it is not uncommon - but we are talking Western men and FSUW here. Do you even think it's exploitative?

I'm curious because I would really like to know if I want to continue here; I certainly do not want to be associated with a forum that condones the exploitation of teenagers for the gratification of middle aged men.

[brian131]

Hey, I really don't want to criticize anyone's relationship.  My posts have only been general knowledge tossed out for anyone that cares to listen.  Billy may have a great thing going.  I don't have enough info to judge.  I will however, poke holes in logic.  I mean nothing against the poster, but no one person is capable of more than just their own perspective so I will give mine.

So respectfully, allow me to comment:

Time passes for all of us.  In some respects it passes faster for women than for men.  The amount of time that a women has to become a mother is surprisingly short.  While a man can become a father over a much greater time span.  So maybe having the opportunity to marry and have a family is one that can't easily be passed by.  Even for an 18 year old woman who has that opportunity with a 40 something year old man.

It is true that women often become mothers early, but this is not always the case.  In fact in many places it is rarely the case.  I know of wonderful mothers who love their children dearly who have told me they wished they had waited longer.  "I wish I had waited and had more "Annie" years, because now they are all "Mom" years."  A woman at 18 does not have to race to have children and probably shouldn't.  I don't think this is a very good argument.  Just look at all the profiles on EM where a woman in her mid to late 30s is looking forward to having kids after having put her career first.  Time can pass for a woman as slowly as she wants it to.

I wouldn't worry too much about A.  She will get a gainfully employed husband who appears from his posts here to have a history of treating women well and will probably work hard on the relationship.  Does she loose some youth in the process?  Sure.  But the gains likely outweigh the loss. . .,

I'm 40, but even those on here as young as 30 should be able to understand what I am going to say.  We all look at our youth and value it far more now than then.  You can't be casual about her giving up her youth.  If I had known then what I know now...sound familiar?  How can anyone know what they are trading?  I can't believe I wasted so much of my youth drinking and going to clubs, and I was having an awesome time.

As far as a gainfully employed husband with a history of treating women well...That's me!  A lot of women would be wasting precious years with me, even if they were my age or older.  I would make some women very happy, but I'd annoy the !@#$ out of some too!  How many of us have heard, "Your a really nice guy, but..."?

To summarize:  A good job and a sunny disposition is not much really.  Youth is invaluable.

Again, no comment on the relationship, just my perspective on a comment.

[brian131]

A good test for any relationship, MOB or conventional:

Would you move to Florida with her?  The divorce laws there are vicious to men.  I know of a couple where the woman asked the judge NOT to order her husband to pay such high alimony and child support...and they hated each other!  The judge refused.  Every time I hear of a horrible divorce settlement I immediately ask if it was Florida and I'm usually right.  Even the women think it's unfair.

Lots of sunshine, beautiful coastline, low taxes...a wonderful place for a new couple.

[Turboguy]

Now, if we could just get past that 16, 17 or 18 year old thing we'd be all set.  I'm hoping that Billy will set the record straight in one of his next posts.  How old was A when she was first contacted by Billy?  How old was she when they first met?  Hey this is really important stuff here folks and by golly we just gotta know! <Insert emoticon here for the benefit of the humor impaired>. . .

Yes, well, you missed the part where Billy held a gun to her head and said he would shoot here if she didn't marry him.   
 
Of course we are a group people with vast experience with relationships and infinate wisdom which gives us the right to make life decisions for anyone and to tar and feather anyone who disagrees.
 
At her young and inexperienced age she may be making a mistake by marrying Billy and should be marrying a 19 year old.  Of course if she did marry that 19 year old there is no possiblity it couldn't be even a bigger mistake, no possibility that he would ever cheat on her, beat her or divorce her. 
 
With Billy I do think the odds are that he will treat her well, try to make her happy and of course he is also the greatest lover in the world. 
 
I sure would not encorage anyone to persue a woman that young.  I do think people are happier when they enjoy that part of their life as a single person.  I agree that many will change their ideas as they get a little more life experience.  I do however respect anyones right to make thier own life decisions and even if she is making a mistake it could be even a bigger mistake if she married some young dude.
 
There were a fair number of people who thought my wife was making a mistake in marrying me.  As I recall a few even pm'd her and told her not to do it.  We are close to 4 years of her being here now and a few months from our 4th anniversary.  From anything I see and from anything she tells me, she has few regrets and we both seem very happy. 
 
I don't see that Billy has an obligation to protect her from himself.  It's the "you are not your brothers keeper" bit.  He is happy with the thought of marrying her and she is happy with the thought of marrying him.  That is good enough for me.  I wish them happiness and I hope they find it.

[Misha]

Misha, you the argument you are making, looks like you are supporting the point made by Ranetka.

Ranetka: The girl has beautiful and precious years of her youth, that she is about to waste on Billy.
Misha: She can still be happy after she turns 30, and divorces Billy takes control over her life. No need to hurry, just wait 10 years.

There are three options IMHO:


1. She truly loves Billy and as Jooky is saying she is an adult and can do what she wants and if that is the case I hope both will be happy;
2. She is doing it because she wants to move to the United States, get a green card and Billy offered the easiest option to do this. In this case, she is an adult and is making her own choices and shouldn't be pitied because she is "wasting" precious years of her life;
3. The third, potentially more insidious option, is that it is her mother pushing her to get married. In this case, yes it could be said that she is not being given the option of living out her youth. However, there is the possibility that once she has to spend some time away from her mother (she can't bring her with her to the USA on a K1 visa) that she might come to gain some independence and we will return to options 1 or 2, and at that point perhaps she will be happy years later out of the shadow of her mother with or without Billy...


Hopefully for Billy option 1 is the correct one that best represents what is happening.

[Miri22]

Option 4. The entire story is just that, fiction.

[brian131]

Option 5  The chick is just plain nuts and is acting out a part because that's as close to human as she can get.

Married one of those.  They can actually appear as 'more human than human'.  Very scary creatures.  The estimates are 1-2% in the female population, slightly higher in males.  Anti Social Personality Disorder.  They are out there and they can be very convincing.  Everyone here knows one, but doesn't recognize them for what they are.

[GQBlues]

Option 6. It's the MOB, thus, any/all of the above.

[Admin]

And yes, I agree that in all probability there was nothing illegal taking place. However, it leaves the potential for exploitation. Some would argue, and I tend to agree, that the very nature of this relationship is nothing but exploitative.

What I would ask of you Dan, is what do you think about middle aged men using your forum to encourage others to pursue sexual relationships with 17 year old girls on the internet? Do you think it's a wise thing? Do you think that these relationships are likely to flourish? And yes, I know there are rare situations where they do and even some cultures where it is not uncommon - but we are talking Western men and FSUW here. Do you even think it's exploitative?

I'm curious because I would really like to know if I want to continue here; I certainly do not want to be associated with a forum that condones the exploitation of teenagers for the gratification of middle aged men.

Ade,

You are a very bright guy and quite passionate with some of your opinions. I respect your position on issues and on those occasions when we either do not agree or I am advocating an RWD principle that you do not fully support, I can count on you to offer thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.

This exchange is no different - and to be candid, it disappoints me that you would use your membership at RWD as a threat.

You have been here long enough to know that I support the RWD principles found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=36. In fact I cling to those tenets when I find myself personally conflicted over an issue - as I am in this instance. Your question as to how I wish to see RWD used is posed without context. There are MANY things that appear at RWD that I find personally distasteful - and a good many of them appear in this topic, now that I've had a chance to review *some* of it. Allow me an example. Page 1 of this topic will find there was the sarcastic suggestion that BillyB arrange some sort of "porno" activity. Another member suggested he team up with a guy that is widely considered to be a sex tourist and posted a photo. Notably that person has Asian features. BillyB has been openly attacked in the past at RWD for his Asian ethnicity. A coincidence? Some may think so. I do not.

I have told the story many times of my best friend - a deeply devout Muslim man from Kuwait (quite different from my lineage and faith). RWD is perhaps the only significant activity in my life that I have not shared with him because of the bigotry that finds its way to our pages. I cringe when I read it - and yet, it *is* part of the 'human condition' and if within the bounds of the TOS it remains at RWD.

There are many, MANY topics and posts at RWD that I do not support - and in some of them I have made my feelings known. But far more important than my personal feelings is the question of whether the topics and posts are consistent with the tenets of the RWD Vision. That Vision is far more tolerant than me personally. The fact that I place those tenets in the context of RWD activities has cost us members in the past. I accept that some people have a far narrower range of comfort with certain topics and there is the distinct possibility they will be unhappy with their participation at RWD since we allow a broad range of issues to be addressed. As a prime example, we have an international membership. Some members, usually American, feel so strongly about America's prominence that they cannot accept other members pointing out some of the issues facing America. RWD has lost members over the fact that I refuse to silence those alternative perspectives. And I could recount many other topics with similar results.

So to your question of whether RWD supports Billy's activities - my response is that RWD follows the tenets of the RWD Vision. We promote inclusivity, diversity, open and civil exchange, and the rights of free men and women to make their own choices. My questions in this topic have been aimed at understanding why this topic has generated such intense responses - AND - some progress has been made in terms of MY understanding the issues. I am interested in learning more. For example, the issue you raised of protecting children and adolescents is a good one. It is one that authorities across the globe wrestle with as there are some very grey aspects to said protection. Since most times protections are enacted it results in restrictions being placed on someone, it is sensible to explore those restrictions and place them in context. I also think Ranetka was on to something that I'd like to understand much better with her sense of inequality - and what it is that creates inequality and whether that is a bad thing. Instinctively it seems so, but to be actioned there needs to be more than instinct or intuition involved.

Finally, the other things you can look to insofar as what RWD supports institutionally are some of the significant products we have produced - including:

* The Agency Code of Ethics (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=1)
* The Mens Code of Conduct - which is particularly pertinent to this topic (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=24)
* The Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce (found here -- http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html)

Those speak for themselves in terms of reflecting our values.

- Dan

[mies]

There are three options IMHO:

The first two are valid options.
As for third one:
Billy's personality does not strike me as particularly democratic, and hence the idea that A. will get rid of her mom's domination and will be "liberated" by Billy B, who will give A. a chance to develop any way she wants to, does not look realistic to me. In that case, there are two possible extremes:
1) if A.'s personality is strong enough - she will eventually develop into cynical ball-busting b-tch and bitter, but very egoistic woman, and will find in herself strength to abandon Billy, maybe will "pay him back" for his teaching services, possibly through divorce/court.
2) If A's personality isnt' strong enough, and is already conditioned by mom's domination, she will just smoothly transition to submitting to Billy, and will become another timid house mouse, passive aggressive and (utterly) unhappy. She will remain married to Billy, possibly for the rest of her life, and maybe eventually will be trained to think that she loves him.
and there is the range of other possibilities in between those extremes.
Where exactly the definition of "happiness" and "successful marriage" fit into these extreme options, and the range of options in between of extremes - I am not quite sure.

I used to know a 18yo gal who married a 36yo guy, because she was madly in love with him, and still is, 14 years since they met. But that guy was fit, super-hot, handsome, humorous, fun, kind, understanding, perceptive, and non-dominating person, had not been married before, did not have adult children no ex's. In short, he was most of things that Billy is not.

I am not critiquing Billy, or A., nor giving anybody any advice. Simply voicing my opinion.

[Misha]

1) if A.'s personality is strong enough - she will eventually develop into cynical ball-busting b-tch and bitter, but very egoistic woman, and will find in herself strength to abandon Billy, maybe will "pay him back" for his teaching services, possibly through divorce/court.

I would say this is a realistic option as well.

2) If A's personality isnt' strong enough, and is already conditioned by mom's domination, she will just smoothly transition to submitting to Billy, and will become another timid house mouse, passive aggressive and (utterly) unhappy. She will remain married to Billy, possibly for the rest of her life, and maybe eventually will be trained to think that she loves him.
and there is the range of other possibilities in between those extremes.

If she had sought a man in Ukraine, it is unlikely that mother would have stayed out of it and if a woman is conditioned by her mother to do as she thinks is best, odds are likely that her mother would have found a man to her liking and pressured her daughter into marrying him. In other words, if this is the scenario at play, it would not be a choice between foreign man that mom chose and young man that young woman will fall in love with and live happily-ever-after with. Rather it will be a choice between foreign guy mom chooses or local guy that mom will also choose who may not fit her daughter's ideals either....

[GoodOlBoy]

FWIW Dan, GOB misses Kievstar (your porn activity reference).
He was one interesting poster that I really enjoyed.
 
I slept on this last night and much like SJ I have a question to toss out at you.
Please take no offense.
I am only probing here. 
 
There are acceptable "gray" areas in everybody's life.
I understand this.
 
At what specific age, would you as the Admin at RWD find it unacceptable to espouse on the exploits of dating a girl/woman in the FSU?
 
Not being nasty here...are we talking 15yo...14yo...?
 
Because right now we are discussing a young girl who was either in her late 16's or very early 17's.
 
The OP's timeline has been very fuzzy about this and he has been asked repeatedly in previous pages and has not yet answered this descrepancy that I am aware of.
 
There is one other thing that I wanted to mention.
 
Month's ago, when you were absent, one of the topics that was split away from this one (sorry I can't find it) evovled into a discussion about age again and one of the forum member's said something to the effect of : "I shagged a 15 yo last night and it was great! What are you getting your knickers in a knot about?" (words to that effect Dan).
 
The post was edited/removed by TG I think or maybe Daveman?
 
My point about mentioning this incident is.... unfortunately we have sicko's on RWD.
 
So doesn't there have to be a line of decency drawn somewhere in the sand??
 
GOB

[Admin]

FWIW Dan, GOB misses Kievstar (your porn activity reference).
He was one interesting poster that I really enjoyed.
 
I slept on this last night and much like SJ I have a question to toss out at you.
Please take no offense.
I am only probing here. 
 
There are acceptable "gray" areas in everybody's life.
I understand this.
 
At what specific age, would you as the Admin at RWD find it unacceptable to expouse on the exploits of dating a girl/woman in the FSU?
 
Not being nasty here...are we talking 15yo...14yo...?
 
Because right now we are discussing a young girl who was either in her late 16's or very early 17's.
 
The OP's timeline has been very fuzzy about this and he has been asked repeatedly in previous pages and has not yet answered this descrepancy that I am aware of.
 
There is one other thing that I wanted to mention.
 
Month's ago, when you were absent, one of the topics that was split away from this one (sorry I can't find it) evovled into a discussion about age again and one of the forum member's said something to the effect of : "I shagged a 15 yo last night and it was great! What are you getting your knickers in a knot about?" (words to that effect Dan).
 
The post was edited/removed by TG I think or maybe Daveman?
 
My point about mentioning this incident is.... unfortunately we have sicko's on RWD.
 
So doesn't there have to be a line of decency drawn somewhere in the sand??
 
GOB

Rick,

My response to your post is largely to point you to my reply to Ade.

Topics that are off-limits are outlined in the Terms of Service (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=41). Implicit in your questions is that you wish for RWD to take an institutional position on matters of "decency." Well, to the extent that "decency" is reflected in statutes and laws, that is already in place. RWD prohibits promotion of anything unlawful.

- Dan

[BC]

Option 6. It's the MOB, thus, any/all of the above.

Option 7 is that A goes through the 'reality check' that most women do somewhere between the time of the interview and getting on the plane.. when the 'rubber hits the road'.  In one way or another I believe most married guys here have experienced that moment or moments of hesitation before that final leap.  It can go either way.  IIRC Billy's prior fiancee did not make it during this period.

In many ways stories that unfold on this and other fora tend to be more about exceptions than rules.  This is simply another example.  Everyone wants to be 'THE Exception'.

In the end though there is little else that one can realistically do.  Everything imaginable has been said at least thrice. Regardless of one's thoughts or orientation towards this relationship, the only reasonable action is to wish them luck and bon voyage on their journey..

[I/O]

I noticed these comments a few days ago .............................

she is so flawless that she can easily be a photo-model for swimsuits or lingerie, or any other type of "model"/actress/TV-star etc. because her appearance is perfect.

Of all the photos of wives/fiancees/unsuspecting passerby RWs I've seen on this site, A. is the most beautiful.

 .......................and whilst on a technical  basis (if the photos are anywhere near reflective of reality) both remarks are inaccurate, I suspect it's the ultimate validation our hero has been seeking for the 51 pages leading up to those remarks. His relative silence since tends to bare testimony to that.
 

Everyone wants to be 'THE Exception'.

Unfortunately, that’s often very true. I suspect the junior partner of this relationship is no different. Many seem to forget that in their commentary, she is as responsible for her actions as is Billy, ultimately it’s “their” call. Will it work? Highly unlikely in the long term but again, it’s “their” call. There’s not as much age gap as between Turbo and..................................slap me.
 

[Gylden]

I have met a lot of different people in my life, from all walks and means. A few things I can say with certainty are as follows:
 
I have found that people who are honest with themselves and others are the most often the happiest.
 
People with the most to say are most often least secure or have hiden issues. (no matter how feverently they try to ram it down your throat)
 
It is difficult (but not impossible) to find someone who has never had a failed relationship in their life. I might add that I am quite sure there are not any who have never made a mistake (again regardless of the "ear full" one might hear to the contrary)
 
We have basically three different factions here in this thread. The first may or may not agree with BillyB and wish him and his A the best.
 
The second are those who are sure BillyB has broken some sort of law and want to see him brought to justice. ( I suggest for those in this catagory to call the authorities, as I don't think anyone here is going to arrest BillyB.)
 
The third are those who are either uncertain about, or don't believe BillB has broken any laws, but are just so darn certain he is totally immoral that they either want to change his mind (good luck with that one), or they want everyone else on the forum (or better yet the world) to know what a fine set of values they themselves have by way of their rants ( you guys are so molodiets, you should run for a political office).
 
In as far as age difference goes or at which age do people become flawless at making decisions, I have never seen any evidence that people reach a conclusive point in their lives, wherby they suddenly gain the ability to make all of the right decisions.? Have you? In fact I have met plenty of people who no matter how old they are have and never will be able to make any right decision (well almost, just exagerating for the purpose of drama). IMO it depends on the person('s) involved. I have seen young people with the common sense of a master and older people without a clue.
 
Good Luck to us all!
p.s. don't crucify me for spelling mistakes, I couldn't get the spell check to function.

[Ade]

Ade,

You are a very bright guy and quite passionate with some of your opinions. I respect your position on issues and on those occasions when we either do not agree or I am advocating an RWD principle that you do not fully support, I can count on you to offer thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.

This exchange is no different - and to be candid, it disappoints me that you would use your membership at RWD as a threat.

Dan, I must admit that I'm disappointed that you took my post as a "threat".

Perhaps you should read what I said again;

I'm curious because I would really like to know if I want to continue here; I certainly do not want to be associated with a forum that condones the exploitation of teenagers for the gratification of middle aged men.

It was just a statement of my preference. Really, I would not want to be associated with a forum that explicitly condones and/or encourages middle aged men to seek out intimate relations with 17 year old girls. And by "forum" I mean the official stance not the opinion of some anonymous stranger.

You should understand that there are so many possibilities for exploitation particularly when the girls are from social or economically deprived backgrounds. And yes, my original "threat" does imply that middle aged men contacting 16 or 17 year old girls is inherently exploitative and, in my opinion, even in the best of circumstances, there's a huge potential for unwitting manipulation if nothing else. Please do some reading Dan, girls this age are so incredibly impressionable and vulnerable to experienced charismatic men, particularly when you add a life situation that may not be the best.

And to be clear; I am not at all supporting the censorship of posts like Billy's. Not at all. However, what I would like to see is a clear statement on such controversial topics as Billy's from someone that is perceived to be the management here. I really don't think it's okay for you to side step the issue by stating rather vaguely that your personal views may be less liberal than the official guidelines then point at the TOS for what is allowed. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that as the dude in charge, you have a responsibility to, as GOB says, draw the line somewhere, to set the tone, and to advise people on what, in your considerable experience, is wise and what isn't with no equivocation. I don't think that, "he didn't break the law so it's okay" from the owner is good enough for a lot of people and neither is pointing to a few lines of legalese buried in a document somewhere. 

Again, that is not to say that posts like Billy's should be censored, because I don't think they should be. I also understand that this girl is 19 now. Although contacting a 19 year old would have still been beyond foolish, at least the potential for exploitation is less and at least she would be considered a legal adult in most western countries.

Another member suggested he team up with a guy that is widely considered to be a sex tourist and posted a photo. Notably that person has Asian features. BillyB has been openly attacked in the past at RWD for his Asian ethnicity. A coincidence? Some may think so. I do not.

I can't say that his ethnicity was ever an issue; I took that comment to mean that Billy's behaviour was similar to that dude Woo's (or whatever his name was). FWIW, if someone compared my dating activities (negative or otherwise) to that of another guy, the last thing on my mind would be that the comparison was because of shared ethnicity.

I have told the story many times of my best friend - a deeply devout Muslim man from Kuwait (quite different from my lineage and faith). RWD is perhaps the only significant activity in my life that I have not shared with him because of the bigotry that finds its way to our pages. I cringe when I read it - and yet, it *is* part of the 'human condition' and if within the bounds of the TOS it remains at RWD.

There are many, MANY topics and posts at RWD that I do not support - and in some of them I have made my feelings known. But far more important than my personal feelings is the question of whether the topics and posts are consistent with the tenets of the RWD Vision. That Vision is far more tolerant than me personally.

Well perhaps the "tenants" should be less forgiving in its opinion even if it allows other opinions that it disagrees with a platform to speak.

[Faux Pas]

I have met a lot of different people in my life, from all walks and means. A few things I can say with certainty are as follows:
 
I have found that people who are honest with themselves and others are the most often the happiest.
 
People with the most to say are most often least secure or have hiden issues. (no matter how feverently they try to ram it down your throat)
 
It is difficult (but not impossible) to find someone who has never had a failed relationship in their life. I might add that I am quite sure there are not any who have never made a mistake (again regardless of the "ear full" one might hear to the contrary)
 
We have basically three different factions here in this thread. The first may or may not agree with BillyB and wish him and his A the best.
 
The second are those who are sure BillyB has broken some sort of law and want to see him brought to justice. ( I suggest for those in this catagory to call the authorities, as I don't think anyone here is going to arrest BillyB.)
 
The third are those who are either uncertain about, or don't believe BillB has broken any laws, but are just so darn certain he is totally immoral that they either want to change his mind (good luck with that one), or they want everyone else on the forum (or better yet the world) to know what a fine set of values they themselves have by way of their rants ( you guys are so molodiets, you should run for a political office).
 
In as far as age difference goes or at which age do people become flawless at making decisions, I have never seen any evidence that people reach a conclusive point in their lives, wherby they suddenly gain the ability to make all of the right decisions.? Have you? In fact I have met plenty of people who no matter how old they are have and never will be able to make any right decision (well almost, just exagerating for the purpose of drama). IMO it depends on the person('s) involved. I have seen young people with the common sense of a master and older people without a clue.
 
Good Luck to us all!
p.s. don't crucify me for spelling mistakes, I couldn't get the spell check to function.

Hiya Gylden!


Good to see you posting again. And then there is that 4th faction that could be a little bit of all the previous 3. Those being like me who believe 1) Billy is fooling himself 2) Good luck to him no matter how it works out 3) Doesn't believe there is a happy ending for Billy and he can't see the forest for the trees.


Many posters here see A as the victim. I see it quite differently. Billy is the victim albeit a willing one 

[Ade]

Hiya Gylden!


Good to see you posting again. And then there is that 4th faction that could be a little bit of all the previous 3. Those being like me who believe 1) Billy is fooling himself 2) Good luck to him no matter how it works out 3) Doesn't believe there is a happy ending for Billy and he can't see the forest for the trees.


Many posters here see A as the victim. I see it quite differently. Billy is the victim albeit a willing one 

Actually, even if Billy is a mark, A is still a victim, probably of her mother if that's the case.

[Gylden]

FP, I tend to agree with you for the most. I hope A is as genuine as BillyB is/thinks he is. Another observation I have had, is that when it comes to the matters of the heart, RW are much more the masters at being able to keep in focus pragmatic issues.
 
Adrian, sounds like you have spent some time in counseling. In a way we are all "victims" of our upbringing/environment. But there comes a time in everyones life to accept who you are and get on with things. Mistakes will happen, it's best to learn from them. 

[Ade]

Adrian, sounds like you have spent some time in counseling. In a way we are all "victims" of our upbringing/environment. But there comes a time in everyones life to accept who you are and get on with things. Mistakes will happen, it's best to learn from them. 

No actually, I've never had counselling or therapy. And yes, I fully agree that there comes a time when we must accept personal responsibility for our decisions and actions; at 16 or 17 though there is still a lot to be said about the influence of parents and upbringing . Even later in life, it's at least useful to understand how our upbringing can impact on our decision making abilities. There are good reasons why minors under 18 aren't tried as adults in a lot/most western countries. You can check out the research on the brains on teenagers if you are interested.

[SteveOR]

I have met a lot of different people in my life, from all walks and means. A few things I can say with certainty are as follows:
 
I have found that people who are honest with themselves and others are the most often the happiest.
 
People with the most to say are most often least secure or have hidden issues. (no matter how fervently they try to ram it down your throat)
 
It is difficult (but not impossible) to find someone who has never had a failed relationship in their life. I might add that I am quite sure there are not any who have never made a mistake (again regardless of the "ear full" one might hear to the contrary)
 
We have basically three different factions here in this thread. The first may or may not agree with BillyB and wish him and his A the best.
 
The second are those who are sure BillyB has broken some sort of law and want to see him brought to justice. ( I suggest for those in this category to call the authorities, as I don't think anyone here is going to arrest BillyB.)
 
The third are those who are either uncertain about, or don't believe BillB has broken any laws, but are just so darn certain he is totally immoral that they either want to change his mind (good luck with that one), or they want everyone else on the forum (or better yet the world) to know what a fine set of values they themselves have by way of their rants ( you guys are so molodiets, you should run for a political office).
 
In as far as age difference goes or at which age do people become flawless at making decisions, I have never seen any evidence that people reach a conclusive point in their lives, whereby they suddenly gain the ability to make all of the right decisions.? Have you? In fact I have met plenty of people who no matter how old they are have and never will be able to make any right decision (well almost, just exaggerating for the purpose of drama). IMO it depends on the person('s) involved. I have seen young people with the common sense of a master and older people without a clue.
 
Good Luck to us all!
p.s. don't crucify me for spelling mistakes, I couldn't get the spell check to function.

+1
 
Well written.  This may help provide Dan with some of that objective summation that he was looking for.  Thanks.
 

p.s. I was able to get the spell check to work and ran it against your post since you weren't able to.  Minor changes.  Hope you don't mind. . .