Life Changes...Part Deux

[Faux Pas]

Actually, even if Billy is a mark, A is still a victim, probably of her mother if that's the case.

I agree with you fully. From his ongoing descriptions I have no doubt A's mother is the master of ceremonies  and master manipulator. A is going to heed to what whatever mother's desire maybe. She is too involved it seems IMHO in this relationship and for an 18 year old, she probably should be. One thing Billy should do much before the reunion and flying her over is, stop the monthly stipend. It might be very revealing


A could be sincere or she could be following mother's wishes, we'll just never know. However, I don't buy Billy's "He-man" machoism and him as such a great catch as the reason. If that's the case he could have worked his magic on a local 17 18 year old

[SANDRO43]

p.s. I was able to get the spell check to work and ran it against your post since you weren't able to. Minor changes.

You missed one that a spell-checker cannot catch :

(again regardless of the "ear full" one might hear to the contrary)

It's earful .

[Faux Pas]

You missed one that a spell-checker cannot catch :It's earful .

Sandro is quite the Cunning-linguist 

[SANDRO43]

Sandro is quite the Cunni(ng-)lingu(i)s(t)

That's a suspicious accolade .

[BillyB]

as far as I'm concerned, she's not at all sexy.

 
A few years ago a guy came to ask if he should marry his gf since she's currently worked in the commercial sex industry. A professional escort if I remember right. A discussion followed if prostitutes could be wife material or not. I didn't think they could be wife material because they became experts in one area of their life to lose focus in other important areas and they are psychologically damaged. You defended the integrity of prostitutes and even talked about your experience communicating with them.

 
Do you find those girls sexy and that's why you communicated with them? I bet my conversations with A is much less perverted than those conversations with prostitutes.

 
We talked about A's beauty earlier in this thread. I understand some people may think she's beautiful and some do not. NO offense taken. Unlike you, my friends and family in real life has seen the photos of the ladies I've dated and been in relationships with. Most have said that I've dated more beautiful women. I have  a couple of photos of a lady that invited me to see her in Russia. I won't point her out but she is one of the 4 tallest women in the photo below. I did not go and visit her because she didn't give me the attention I want through correspondence to prove to me she was truly "into me". I did factor in that she is a very busy woman who gets lots of attention.

 

I am just curious Billy

 
If you don't give a damn what others think of you or your relationship(s), why do you spend so much time justifing and asserting your alpha maleness?

 
I don't give a damn what others think about my relationship either. I came here to tell a story and I'm going to finish it. Life changes Part one ended with no marriage, just a lot of dating. Why do I assert alpha maleness? Because it's attractive to women. Few women prefer a beta male. In real life I'm a man of action not words so one should not mistake that I tell people how successful I am. If a guy new in this endeavor can take a piece of what I said and apply it towards benefitting his life, then I've done my job. After reading these forums long enough, I see too many people failing to identify insincere agencies, insincere women or even marrying incompatible but good women.
 
I like when people come here and post success stories and tell how they got it done. Some people don't like how I presented mine. Some do.

 

So I don't know what A sees in Billy, but it's her path to choose and I don't see that the path most followed is a better guarantee of her long term happiness.

 
It's a mistake for anyone to try and figure out another person's feelings. I once wrote a professional, business dress wearing, clean cut American woman. She wrote back saying she's looking for a man with long hair, lots of piercings and lots of tattoos. Who am I to tell her what she should look for and feel in a man? Of course I think she's wrong and the man she seeks may not be husband material but a man who looks wild may turn her on which is something I and other men can't do. Can't win all the women and a guy shouldn't cry about it so I move on quickly to find women I do turn on.

 

Billy, you live in the Seattle area right?

 
I like to keep my location secret at the moment. I suspect some men here want to kill me and some women want to steal me from my fiancee. I'm sure the ladies are curious to see what I'm all about.  

 

Lots and lots and lots of differing perspectives (to use a gentle euphemism) in this topic.


I wonder - does ANYONE feel they can offer an *objective* summary? If so, please make the effort as I would be quite interested in reading a *balanced* perspective from someone who has followed the story closely. And yes, accuse me of being lazy because it would be accurate. For a variety of reasons I have not followed this story closely - only a snippet or two here and there - and I now do not wish to spend the time to wade through 50  pages of posts - so if someone would be so kind as to offer the 'Cliff's Notes' version, I would be grateful.

- Dan

 
Dan, and anybody else that hasn't read. My recommendation is to read and see why this thread got so many views. It's not popular just because of what I wrote but what others wrote too.  No one person can tell you how you're supposed to think but you can learn alot, not just about me and A, but others and yourself.

 
You will find guys who write prostitutes call me delusional. You will find guys complain about my age gap and when they are cross examined based off past posts of theirs, they are in, have been in, or will consider large age gaps. You will have guys accuse me of purely hunting for meat yet they admitted they've done that in the past. People have accused me of being immoral but they fail to realize that one reason of my success with women is because I'm the opposite of what they've accused.
 

The ladies in this thread have more balls than the men. Some have disagreed with me but they don't get so emotional about it. Some ladies thought I should date multiple women at the same time. Other's see themselves in A's shoes and can't understand why she would marry me when she could do better with a younger handsomer man. I'm not surprised I can win over A or other women like her.

 
Chivo mentioned in a later post some men felt insecure including himself. It takes balls to understand that but as I'm writing this thread, many men begin to understand they aren't getting the results I'm getting and they can either complain or improve until they get better results. I'm sure the women are enjoying this thread because they get to see the many different attitudes of men and how we think and how they should go about in choosing the right man for themselves.

 

One thing is for certain though at this point, 'A' will walk into a world with 'choices' she had no way of knowing can be available (easily) for her. 
 

 
GQ, you did read most this thread but you failed to understand. RW who are young will have hundreds of men writing A simply because of her age. I was accused of that but that is not the reason I wrote her. RW who are beautiful will have hundreds of men writing her and that is the reason I initially write RW regardless of age. When A goes to the beach in Libya, she has many European men talking to her. When she goes to the restaurant in Ukraine, she has men coming up to asking her to dance. She shoots all those men down.

 
You don't think she knows her worth? She, her mom, her relatives, and her friends all probably told her she's beautiful. She doesn't live in a cave. You don't think she can do better? She know thinks she got the best man. EVERY man who has a gf or wife better hope their woman believes she got the best man.
 

What will prevent her from succumbing to temptation to improve her life even further, with a richer/younger man?
I am not saying she will do it. I am merely asking why Billy thinks she will not do it. What will he offer to her to continuously keep her interested? 

 
If I believe a woman would fall into temptation to improve her life, I would not marry her. I did not marry a lot of the women I dated and I dated a lot. New guys have a  hard time identifying scammers during correspondence. Experienced guys do not. What kind of experience do you think a guy will get if he dated over 50 women in the past few years? Maybe he better understands how to please a woman mentally and emotionally?  He understands better what works and don't work with women? I'm not telling guys they have to have movie star looks. If a woman can tolerate a man's looks, he has a chance at rocking her world.
 

I don't have time to read the rest of the pages so I'll come back after Labor Day. Have a good weekend.

[Daveman]

And yes, I agree that in all probability there was nothing illegal taking place. However, it leaves the potential for exploitation. Some would argue, and I tend to agree, that the very nature of this relationship is nothing but exploitative.

Yes, you could be right, that the very nature of this relationship is not but exploitative in one, two, or three ways.


Of course, you addressed your comments/questions to Dan.. but it is difficult for me to  refrain from a decent logical discussion. 

What I would ask of you Dan, is what do you think about middle aged men using your forum to encourage others to pursue sexual relationships with 17 year old girls on the internet?

The inference behind the question is speculative.  We do not know what was discussed, and considering that according to what was posted they didn't meet until after she was 18, the question doesn't apply to this thread as it infers "pursuit of a sexual relationship with a 17 year old".  The pursuit, as indicated, was/is marriage. 

Do you think it's a wise thing? Do you think that these relationships are likely to flourish? And yes, I know there are rare situations where they do and even some cultures where it is not uncommon - but we are talking Western men and FSUW here. Do you even think it's exploitative?

You are asking individual's opinion, which indeed could vary from the tenets of the forum itself.

I'm curious because I would really like to know if I want to continue here; I certainly do not want to be associated with a forum that condones the exploitation of teenagers for the gratification of middle aged men.

Again, you are making a speculative assumption that this is the situation and that the forum is condoning the stated situation.  It isn't.  Dan pointed to the 'written' documents where the rules, tenets, visions of the forum are laid out.  I'm not sure what more you expected as your interpretation (and inferences), while perhaps clear cut to you, still remain your interpretation.  There are others who agree with your interpretation, as well as those who disagree.  The forum is functioning exactly as it should...  The only clearly defined line here is that there is nothing illegal having occurred.  This is the only well defined line of the thread.  To draw a line elsewhere gets into issues of morality definitions which is beyond the scope of the forum policies.


The forum focuses on relationships leading to cross cultural marriages. 

No actually, I've never had counselling or therapy. And yes, I fully agree that there comes a time when we must accept personal responsibility for our decisions and actions; at 16 or 17 though there is still a lot to be said about the influence of parents and upbringing . Even later in life, it's at least useful to understand how our upbringing can impact on our decision making abilities. There are good reasons why minors under 18 aren't tried as adults in a lot/most western countries. You can check out the research on the brains on teenagers if you are interested.

Absolutely *personally* agree with this post.  Though, depending on how heinous the "crime", children in their primary years sometimes are tried as adults.  The government, at least here in the USA, actively recruits teenagers for military service... and there is an obvious reason for that directly related to those which you have indicated.


I personally do not believe a 16, 17, or even 20 year old has a clue yet, are still in the developmental stages and are highly impressionable and/or susceptible to indoctrination. 


That being said, it seems your desire is for RWD to take an official stance on a matter which is indeed outside its purpose to define... the law is clear.  That's what we have.  The moral and/or psychological issues are being discussed/debated which shows, again, that the forum is functioning well in its purpose.


What more, exactly, do you want?


Dave

[Faux Pas]

  The only clearly defined line here is that there is nothing illegal having occurred.  This is the only well defined line of the thread.  To draw a line elsewhere gets into issues of morality definitions which is beyond the scope of the forum policies.

Dave, this is merely an assumption on your part. "Likely" nothing illegal has occurred but that is beside the point. You, I or no other poster here knows what occurred between Billy and A. With that said, it is possible "something" illegal did occur. To speculate either way is pure conjecture.


We don't know if Billy and A's early conversations were monitored by NBC's "To Catch a Predator" that Billy wouldn't be in shackles now 

[BC]

We don't know if Billy and A's early conversations were monitored by NBC's "To Catch a Predator" that Billy wouldn't be in shackles now 

FP,

A presumption of innocence is in order.  In any case it takes a complaint to set any legal action into motion.  I don't see any reason at all to follow up on this aspect.

At the most one could say that it's a 'because I can' type thing.

[Faux Pas]

FP,

A presumption of innocence is in order.  In any case it takes a complaint to set any legal action into motion.  I don't see any reason at all to follow up on this aspect.

At the most one could say that it's a 'because I can' type thing.

No not really. Daveman made the presumption of innocents yet in the same breath declared this isn't about legalities. Tit for tat. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that all is legal but, we don't "know" that 

[Admin]

No not really. Daveman made the presumption of innocents yet in the same breath declared this isn't about legalities. Tit for tat. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that all is legal but, we don't "know" that 

No, not the same at all. When society becomes comfortable with condemnation on the basis of what *could* happen, there is no end to the innocents who will become victims of those who lodge allegations without evidence. There is a very good reason the basis for law in the US is that it is better for 10 guilty to go free than to wrongly incarcerate a single person.

- Dan

[GQBlues]

...
GQ, you did read most this thread but you failed to understand. RW who are young will have hundreds of men writing A simply because of her age. I was accused of that but that is not the reason I wrote her. RW who are beautiful will have hundreds of men writing her and that is the reason I initially write RW regardless of age. When A goes to the beach in Libya, she has many European men talking to her. When she goes to the restaurant in Ukraine, she has men coming up to asking her to dance. She shoots all those men down.

Well, BillyB...if anyone is short in comprehension, I suggest maybe re-reading my statement you quoted.
 
HUGE difference between the types of men jamming the pages of the MOB catalogs from the (non-MOB) men walking the streets of Seattle in any given day/night. You can guess what exactly separate these two groups of 'men yourself so I don't believe I need not elaborate too much with this point.
 
Libyans? Europeans on vacations? LOL....
 

You don't think she knows her worth? She, her mom, her relatives, and her friends all probably told her she's beautiful.

How true. Got me there...giving this another whirl, yes, I don't believe I ever heard a mother think of her child as 'ugly'. The use of the word *probably* seem out of place right now though.
 
 

You don't think she can do better?

 
'Better' is completely subjective. Sometimes things just gets 'better' and better, LOL....Can she do 'better'? Only she would know that, no? Better than what? What she had before, what she have now, or what she CAN have in the future? yahknowwhatImean?
 
 

She (k)now thinks she got the best man. EVERY man who has a gf or wife better hope their woman believes she got the best man.

No doubt, Bubbles. Not even for a NY minute...     
 
Dang! I just saw the pageant pics...that Czech gal is a total babe! Wow-wee!

[Faux Pas]

No, not the same at all. When society becomes comfortable with condemnation on the basis of what *could* happen, there is no end to the innocents who will become victims of those who lodge allegations without evidence. There is a very good reason the basis for law in the US is that it is better for 10 guilty to go free than to wrongly incarcerate a single person.

- Dan

I see your point Dan but, I haven't condemned anyone. Just merely stating that there is as much room here for guilt as innocents. No one other than Billy, A and mother knows the content of the conversations or if all is above board. For a poster such as Daveman or myself to declare one way or the other is well, just plain wrong

[Admin]

I see your point Dan but, I haven't condemned anyone. Just merely stating that there is as much room here for guilt as innocents. No one other than Billy, A and mother knows the content of the conversations or if all is above board. For a poster such as Daveman or myself to declare one way or the other is well, just plain wrong

I would look at it differently. You are correct that no one except the parties involved know what transpired. There has been no admission of wrongdoing (quite obviously) - and in spite of various efforts to identify relevant statutes that might have been violated, none have been found. It is, therefore, conjecture and speculation (at best) to assert ANY wrongdoing. In the absence of obvious wrongdoing, it is WRONG to accuse. That some may be suspicious of wrongdoing is one thing - but mere suspicion, particularly when the suspicions are borne solely of arguments based on *if* or *could*, is insufficient to justify accusation.

I really believe this is a fundamental tenet of a free society. The default position is innocence where there is an absence of evidence proving guilt. Admittedly society has become more accusatory and more willing to judge than it once was - as can be seen in the trends of legal decisions that at one time would not convict on the basis of circumstantial evidence. Still, when guilt is found, the legal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Clearly that standard has not been met, or even approached, in what we have seen in this topic.

- Dan

[Daveman]

Dave, this is merely an assumption on your part. "Likely" nothing illegal has occurred but that is beside the point. You, I or no other poster here knows what occurred between Billy and A. With that said, it is possible "something" illegal did occur. To speculate either way is pure conjecture.


We don't know if Billy and A's early conversations were monitored by NBC's "To Catch a Predator" that Billy wouldn't be in shackles now 

LoL!  Well, er... yes, I see your point...  Let me take a moment to rephrase...  with the *presumption* that what has been posted in this thread is a factual depiction of what actually transpired, and accepting at face value that it is, nothing which has been posted by the OP in this particular thread is indicative of any illegal activity on the part of the OP.   

[Faux Pas]

I would look at it differently. You are correct that no one except the parties involved know what transpired. There has been no admission of wrongdoing (quite obviously) - and in spite of various efforts to identify relevant statutes that might have been violated, none have been found. It is, therefore, conjecture and speculation (at best) to assert ANY wrongdoing. In the absence of obvious wrongdoing, it is WRONG to accuse. That some may be suspicious of wrongdoing is one thing - but mere suspicion, particularly when the suspicions are borne solely of arguments based on *if* or *could*, is insufficient to justify accusation.

I really believe this is a fundamental tenet of a free society. The default position is innocence where there is an absence of evidence proving guilt. Admittedly society has become more accusatory and more willing to judge than it once was - as can be seen in the trends of legal decisions that at one time would not convict on the basis of circumstantial evidence. Still, when guilt is found, the legal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. Clearly that standard has not been met, or even approached, in what we have seen in this topic.

- Dan

I haven't accused Billy of anything. I only caution Daveman of declaring innocents in the way of legalities. From the information provided, there is no way we can know that. Billy has admitted contact while she was 17 years old and his indication was contact earlier. So, yes there is "indication" of wrong doing as far as legalities go, granted based on what the conversations contained. We have no way of knowing.


That is a two way street. If one can guess on one's innocents, they can also guess on their guilt

[Admin]

I haven't accused Billy of anything. I only caution Daveman of declaring innocents in the way of legalities. From the information provided, there is no way we can know that. Billy has admitted contact while she was 17 years old and his indication was contact earlier. So, yes there is "indication" of wrong doing as far as legalities go, granted based on what the conversations contained. We have no way of knowing.


That is a two way street. If one can guess on one's innocents, they can also guess on their guilt

FP,

Sorry, but I do not think it is appropriate at all to guess someone is guilty. Guilt cannot result from guesswork. For that matter, it is not necessary to guess someone is innocent - they ARE innocent (as the default condition). Only if there is evidence to prove their guilt should they be accused of wrongdoing.

I grant that not everyone behaves this way - but it *is* the foundation upon which our legal system was built - and I believe it is the correct and just way to do things.

- Dan

[Turboguy]

Dave, this is merely an assumption on your part. "Likely" nothing illegal has occurred but that is beside the point.

Humm, did they rob a bank or something.  I thought I followed this thread pretty closely but sure missed anything illegal.
 

 
We don't know if Billy and A's early conversations were monitored by NBC's "To Catch a Predator" that Billy wouldn't be in shackles now 

That would be sick with all the real preditors in the world if they cared a diddlysquat about Billy

[mies]

I have  a couple of photos of a lady that invited me to see her in Russia. I did not go and visit her because she didn't give me the attention I want through correspondence to prove to me she was truly "into me"..

Billy tells that he used to know a very beautiful model who was not interested in him. He uses this fact to prove that he is very popular among beautiful women and can have virtually any one of them.

Which got me thinking: I will make a list of very handsome, rich, and powerful men, who aren't interested in me, or do not give me the attention I want. I am sure I can find many men like that  And will use this list as a leverage, ego-booster/pamper, and self-promotion ad 

If I believe a woman would fall into temptation to improve her life...

why then A. is willing to marry you? what are her reasons? Isn't it because with you she will have a better life than on herself, or with her mom, or with some other man? I was under impression that you repeatedly spoke about this. But maybe I misunderstood you. Please, correct me if I am wrong, and tell what were her reasons if not the ones listed above.
 

[brian131]

I knew a Russian woman married to an American guy.  She was way prettier than should have been with him.  She cheated on him every chance she got and he turned a blind eye to it.  It was the price he had to pay for keeping her, and he was willing to accept this for some reason.  I think he believed that she would leave him for another man, but that she might stay if he paid her bills and allowed her to have other lovers.  I'm sure they are divorced now...she would have been able to find someone who had much more money and was also very attractive.

[MarkLeftTX]

I don't have the time to keep up with this whole thread... but I did want to answer this, just for the hell of it...

Mark, I've seen a few Western men come to the forum and imply RW are strong in nature and hard to control as if it's an undesirable trait they possess.
 
Early in this thread I mentioned a woman behaves according to the man she's with. Man #1 says the RW is a biatch and doesn't listen to him. Man #2 says the RW wants equal rights and expects me to wash clothes and dishes half the time. Man #3 says the RW is sweet and will do anything he wants. Guess what? They are all talking about the same woman.

That's an incredibly condescending attitude -- it indicates that the woman in question has no personality of her own, but rather morphs into a whatever the man expects her to be.


I have found that is not true in any woman I have ever been with... American, Latina, Asian, Russian or Ukrainian.


The woman is 50% of the equation in any relationship. She has hopes, dreams, and expectations.

Do you think mafia types or strong men have problems with their women controlling them?

No more than Mommar Quadafi had controlling his. I suppose if you want a woman who performs on cue, and you want to use the barrel of a gun to ensure that, you too can have a totally submissive woman...

If a RW in my life tries to be the head of the home, I will tell her I can't sleep with a woman that dresses, talk, and acts like a man. I tell the women in my life beforehand if she doesn't like the way I think, don't be with me.

Well, then, all I can say is that it is amazing that you aren't alone...


Oh... wait....

[brian131]

Quote from: BillyB on August 29, 2011, 05:48:05 AM

Early in this thread I mentioned a woman behaves according to the man she's with. Man #1 says the RW is a biatch and doesn't listen to him. Man #2 says the RW wants equal rights and expects me to wash clothes and dishes half the time. Man #3 says the RW is sweet and will do anything he wants. Guess what? They are all talking about the same woman.

That's an incredibly condescending attitude -- it indicates that the woman in question has no personality of her own, but rather morphs into a whatever the man expects her to be.

More than that, it suggests a lack of the knowledge needed to have a relationship with a woman.

This won't be a nice divorce, it will be revenge plotted over many years. 
  Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned

[Jooky]

That's an incredibly condescending attitude -- it indicates that the woman in question has no personality of her own, but rather morphs into a whatever the man expects her to be.

I don't think that's what he's saying at all. What he is describing is very common.
 
Take for example a hot chick that goes to night clubs. If some dorky guy approaches her with a cheesy pick up line, likely she'll reject him and act like a 'stuck up bitch'. A charismatic guy approaches her and he gets a very different reaction.
 
Extend that to relationships and take for example disaster stories we've read on this board, where a push over guy is treated like a mule by a wife who is insulting and rude (or worse) to him. This same woman can cheat with a different guy who is not a push over and she will treat this lover with kindness.
 
This doesn't mean a woman molds to the man. It means she behaves different towards men based on how they act and how much or little she respects them.
 
You can see this right here on this thread. Some women here are confrontational and not very nice (to put it mildly) towards Billy. I don't for a second believe that these women behave the same towards their husbands or boyfriends. I don't think they are morphing to what Billy expects either. They just don't respect him or what he's saying and their behavior reflects that. Simple really.
 
 
 
 

[brian131]

When everyone tells me I'm doing something stupid, I don't take it as a sign that I'm smarter than everyone else.

Hire an investigator.

[Gylden]

When everyone tells me I'm doing something stupid, I don't take it as a sign that I'm smarter than everyone else.

Hire an investigator.

was one of those types. 
Christofer Columbus

[brian131]

When everyone tells me I'm doing something stupid, I don't take it as a sign that I'm smarter than everyone else.

was one of those types. 
Christofer Columbus

The only thing that ever suggested that Columbus was revolutionary in thinking that the world was round was a piece written by Washington Irving hundreds of years later.

The truth is that Columbus was bitter and enraged the rest of his life if anyone even suggested that he hadn't landed in India.  He had failed and even though everyone now knew what he discovered, he could never admit it even to himself.

Q.E.D.