married and divorced...

[Misha]

Hence, a poor AM will do just fine.

I have seen one very attractive woman leaving her well-to-do husband for love and a job at Burger King. She is still with the man she loves 

I also know RW who married poor Canadian students. Who is seeing the world in black and white terms now?  :evil:

[Gator]

Again, unlike others on these forums, I am willing to recognize that RW are often motivated by love   

Your smugness has reached a new high.  Do you really think that Glyden and I were suggesting otherwise?

In my experience, even the most pragmatic and the most intelligent woman can fall madly in love and will often do the most irrational things at that moment.

I am with you except for "...at that moment."  Mentioning 'moment' makes it sound like "a stiff dick has no conscience."   A woman's love is far more enduring, yet can still die as life moves on.

Misha, what I do not like is the manner in which you cast blanket statements that are indeed black and white when the world is gray.  Everyone is different to include the RW we romance.

From your writings I say that you are in love, and I wish you a long, happy marriage. 

[Misha]

So, Gator, when you share your experience it is to be taken as the gospel truth and when I do the same I am not seeing the subtleties?

[groovlstk]

Or, is it a question of her asking whether she will be able to put up with him in order to benefit from his financial stability  Sure, nothing is perfect in life, but men should aim for the first as opposed to the latter.

I know it's customary to blame men for situations like this, but frankly speaking the blame goes both ways because there are way, way too many FSU women willing to say or do whatever it takes to hook up with a financially secure man. Maybe I'm jaded because most of the women I dated prior to RW were fairly self-sufficient (and usually proud of it), but the single RW in our circle of friends who are dating American men are specifically seeking stability and support. Laudable goals, all well and good, but what are the odds that they will dump their Russian or Latino lovers when things get serious? My guess would be slim to zero, even after marriage.

[Gylden]

I too absolutely agree that most women regardless of where they live are motivated by love.
 

I, like others with a bit of life experience have witnessed some men and women behaving irrationally when it comes to love. Not sure if it is the norm though. I would think that in a good scenario a man and women would be able to find the love and the practical elements to forge a life long marriage/bond. (you don't have to sacrifice one for the other)

[Misha]

I know it's customary to blame men for situations like this, but frankly speaking the blame goes both ways because there are way, way too many FSU women willing to say or do whatever it takes to hook up with a financially secure man.

True, but will the man be capable of knowing when he meets such a woman? Based on everything else I have read here, it seems that men are more than happy to explain it all away as cultural. Or, they may not see the subtle clues that the woman is not into them. Also, if men believe that a RW is interested primarily in financial security, IMHO, he is more likely to fall for such women as you describe because he will expect RW to behave thus.

what are the odds that they will dump their Russian or Latino lovers when things get serious? My guess would be slim to zero, even after marriage.

Zero-to-none of course 

[Misha]

I, like others with a bit of life experience have witnessed some men and women behaving irrationally when it comes to love. Not sure if it is the norm though. I would think that in a good scenario a man and women would be able to find the love and the practical elements to forge a life long marriage/bond. (you don't have to sacrifice one for the other)

I agree this is the ideal and neither should be sacrificed.

[Gator]

So, Gator, when you share your experience it is to be taken as the gospel truth and when I do the same I am not seeing the subtleties?

This started because I disagreed with your statement:

"...men it seems to me try to woo women with photos of their houses, cars, yachts, and will impress them by the size of their wallets. Rather than trying to seduce women with wit and charm and finding a woman who will love them for who they are, they seek an easy way to find the hottest woman they can marry as quickly as possible. There are exceptions, but they do seem to be rare."


My opinion is that financial stability is a mandatory requirement among almost all RW who purposefully seek a foreign husband.  However, these same women have other mandatory requirements.   The man who has money and flaunts it, yet fails to meet a RW's other criteria, will succeed in getting only a gold digger.

[Misha]

This started because I disagreed with your statement:

"...men it seems to me try to woo women with photos of their houses, cars, yachts, and will impress them by the size of their wallets. Rather than trying to seduce women with wit and charm and finding a woman who will love them for who they are, they seek an easy way to find the hottest woman they can marry as quickly as possible. There are exceptions, but they do seem to be rare."

Yes, and you will notice those two little words: "it seems" which implies that it is not absolute truth, rather the impression that I get, yet I am accused of being, how did you put it, presenting everything in black and white terms.

My opinion is that financial stability is a mandatory requirement among almost all RW who purposefully seek a foreign husband.  However, these same women have other mandatory requirements.   The man who has money and flaunts it, yet fails to meet a RW's other criteria, will succeed in getting only a gold digger.

Here I agree with you as well. By purposefully seek, I presume you mean women who will be joining an agency with the aim of finding a foreign husband. With this proviso tacked on, I agree with you 100%.

[BC]

Man's emotional turmoil vs woman's cautious pragmatism.

Need I really say more?

 

[kievstar]

Stability of family is very important.  Having money helps in stability.  Being controlling does not not help stability.  Many factors going into being stable (+ or - ) but money is important just like how you act with money is important.

On first meeting with any woman tell them you make below average income, you always spend more than you make, and would she be willing to travel across the ocean to live the rest of the life with you.  Any woman who would do that I would call desperate. 

Most men do like the fact that money is important.  Just like most women do not like being called fat and ugly.  Fact is men are judged by money - not only factor but they are judged on it. 

Women in America find it easy to make $100,000 usd plus a year - very easy to do if you go to college to be making this amount of money by 30 years old.  But $100,000 means a lot more to many RW prior to coming USA.  Maybe the men on this board do not flaunt money but I have run into several recently in the USA who flaunted money and now have serious issues with their RW.  Where I live $100K a year is little money.  Now the RW wants a trade up with these men pretending to be rich.    Are these women bad - no.  They want a stable family and want someone more in their league. 

[Daveman]

Blame love when there's nothing left to blame. A very common (mis)conception.

I have never subscribe to the notion of love at first sight. It matters little if you threw endless anecdote of people falling in love at first sight of their inamorata. Folks throw the silly word quite blindly and carelessly. This is largely the reason why so many men are left quivering and gasping once they realize the labor of their desperation.

A wise ol' man who graced this adventure before gave a term that best suit the state of most, if not all of the men who found themselves in this pursuit. He term this state Limerence'.

...

LOVE is something that never took place.

Yep, this has been my philosophy for quite some time.  I think this is a large piece of the puzzle.  In the search for the Russian Grail, I hear the chanting from deep the cave... "only the Limerent man shall pass.. only the limerent man shall pass...", "Idiot, in Russian, Limerent begins with an 'л'"

Infatuation is considered natural in the early phases of attraction.  Of course there can be too much of a good thing bordering or crossing the border into obsession.  Most everyone here indicates that it's best to wait until after the infatuation phase passes prior to making any long term decisions.

Misha does make a good point about some/many guys leading with the wallet, which also ties into limerence - the attempt to gain reciprocation by whatever means, which also ties into KenC's thoughts about the "wife vacancy". 

Agreed that "love" hadn't the chance to grow in many cases. I understand this quite clearly from my side of the search.  Pressure has killed it for me on more than one occasion.  When I feel pressure to jump ahead of the relationship, my emotional feelings kinda die.  I think too that at least some of the RW have that "husband vacancy" mindset as well, which ties into BF's comments on the need/importance to be loved, even if she doesn't love, to gain the comfortable family situation.

Of course money is important for stability. Some RW say it is absolutely necessary before any love can possibly occur (where's the Brave "Shallow pockets" to emphasize the point?).  Financial stability is simply a part of overall stability. 

I don't know Shosta, it seems people are collectively bringing pieces of a puzzle together.  At least in a manner of speaking. And I agree that understanding why women fall in love is the foundation for understanding the differences which may exist between RW and other W.

I'm interested in those women (well, not THAT kind of interest, but you know what I mean) where the woman is acting in good faith, hoping that love will come and everything will be satisfactory. I think pressure could have something to do with it. Pressure upon herself to "love" rather than to just relax and let whatever happen, happen. 

Do you guys (and girls) think that mutual infatuation occurs in some of these situations, which could grow into love, but dies for various reasons? (obviously it must in SOME situations, but in those situations.... why?)

[Gylden]

Do you guys (and girls) think that mutual infatuation occurs in some of these situations, which could grow into love, but dies for various reasons? (obviously it must in SOME situations, but in those situations.... why?)

1. Of course it does... falling in love with a picture and reading translated letters, becoming a OWW and then after the K-1 fiasco/FSU learning a bit of English the mutual discovery of each other revealing some drastic differences.

Or any other variant, which has been hashed over a thousand times here. IMO the bottom line is that the logistics/costs/system is a bit too taxing to allow most to feel that they have the proper time/resources to let the relationship develop in the "right" way. While the women can be more concerned if the guy is a keyboard Romeo or a sex tourist, accelerating the process to find the answer.

 

[Misha]

Are these women bad - no.  They want a stable family and want someone more in their league. 

Supports my point. If you find women by flaunting money, the women you find will invariably have little interest in you as a person and as you demonstrate will readily seek to find men with more money when the conditions are right  :evil:

[Shostakovich]

I don't know Shosta, it seems people are collectively bringing pieces of a puzzle together. 

I'm interested in those women (well, not THAT kind of interest, but you know what I mean) where the woman is acting in good faith, hoping that love will come and everything will be satisfactory. I think pressure could have something to do with it. Pressure upon herself to "love" rather than to just relax and let whatever happen, happen. 

It's not a puzzle.  It is a huge mistake to think that 'love' can be conquered through intellect - that's because 'love' bubbles up from the unconscious.  You'll not solve it as you do not have all the information.  That is a problem many men face, they want to reduce this business to a formula.  That is because most men are emotionally weak and have poor intuition about what to trust and not to trust.  One of the things a woman can do for a man is to get them to run with their emotions.  Of course that is the way women manipulate men also.  Good luck figuring it out.  The general rule is that people go with what seems to advance their cause.  If it's sex and money then that will be what the relationship is about.  If partnership, something else.  If a family, again something else.   Probably the ones who just want fun and games are the ones with the most optimistic prospects.  On the other hand, if you start thinking of this philosophically you'll run into that pessimistic point of view that says that most of the exciting things of life are'nt worth doing - you just wind down the vitality that could be spent in more profitable enterprises, such as arising, awaking and gaining knowledge.  This business of love is rather over-rated I think.  The need to be loved strikes me as a bit pathological - why this need for validation?   Why this inner void?  Understand it and fill it with knowledge and enjoy your the freedom from this insipid chase.  Better to think of sympathy and service to the other - then maybe it will blossom into something more substantial that a few romantic flourishes, based on illusion.

"Man's love to woman and woman's love to man: would that it were sympathy in suffering and veiled deities, but generally two animals alight" 

A line from old Fred for you.

 

[55North]

On first meeting with any woman tell them you make below average income, you always spend more than you make, and would she be willing to travel across the ocean to live the rest of the life with you.  Any woman who would do that I would call desperate. 

 
Not quite as above, but not far of the mark was my position when courting Alla, and I told her pretty soon after meeting.  You forgot to mention the very high credit card debit partly incurred with the previous FSU fiancee.
 
2 years on, the house is remortgaged, the debt cleared, she now possesses an 'Indefinite Leave to Remain" visa, and she's still here with me.
 
Not bad going.  I don't think she imagines herself as desperate.

[Gator]

Better to think of sympathy and service to the other - then maybe it will blossom into something more substantial that a few romantic flourishes, based on illusion.

Interesting take Shosty.  You are in another of your contemplative yet spontaneous moods, eh.

Please ponder on this.  Rather than sympathy, how about empathy?  Might as well add desire to the two.  Next I could add....

"Man's love to woman and woman's love to man: would that it were sympathy in suffering and veiled deities, but generally two animals alight" 

A line from old Fred for you.

Ah Nietzsche, the AntiChrist of Basel.  Conjures bad memories from university days because I had to wade through Übermench with an incompetent professor.  Palpitations.

I appreciate Fred's theme of recurrence more than how Robert Frost expressed it.   

"Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired."

Frost's definition sounds like a hopeless psychological condition, someone who is consumed and who would flit when falling short.

[Daveman]

It's not a puzzle.  It is a huge mistake to think that 'love' can be conquered through intellect - that's because 'love' bubbles up from the unconscious.  You'll not solve it as you do not have all the information. 

True, we/I do not have precise information because that information varies by individual and is rarely if ever logical in nature. The puzzle is in the disentanglement of the web of neuroassociations.  The effervescence of love from the unconscious is merely the triggering of associative preprogrammed responses... it bubbles up because it is triggered -- yes, unconsciously, but the Pavlov triggers are indeed there - as diversified in nature as there are individuals.  Associations rarely make logical sense, which is why therapists have jobs.    And of course, therapy works (regardless of the type) by allowing an individual a vehicle to change certain associations which are embedded, for whatever reasons, and are limiting growth and/or function. In general, very general terms, I believe the need to be 'loved' stems from the basic need to feel significant, to feel unique, admired, etc...

That is a problem many men face, they want to reduce this business to a formula.  That is because most men are emotionally weak and have poor intuition about what to trust and not to trust.  One of the things a woman can do for a man is to get them to run with their emotions.  Of course that is the way women manipulate men also.  Good luck figuring it out.  The general rule is that people go with what seems to advance their cause.  If it's sex and money then that will be what the relationship is about.  If partnership, something else.  If a family, again something else.   Probably the ones who just want fun and games are the ones with the most optimistic prospects.  On the other hand, if you start thinking of this philosophically you'll run into that pessimistic point of view that says that most of the exciting things of life are'nt worth doing - you just wind down the vitality that could be spent in more profitable enterprises, such as arising, awaking and gaining knowledge.  This business of love is rather over-rated I think.  The need to be loved strikes me as a bit pathological - why this need for validation?   Why this inner void?  Understand it and fill it with knowledge and enjoy your the freedom from this insipid chase.  Better to think of sympathy and service to the other - then maybe it will blossom into something more substantial that a few romantic flourishes, based on illusion.

"Man's love to woman and woman's love to man: would that it were sympathy in suffering and veiled deities, but generally two animals alight" 

A line from old Fred for you.

 

The Law of Parsimony does exist and the formula does exist, though cannot be truly fathomed as a one stop panacea due to the infinite variables which could be plugged in, in an infinite number of ways (what you are describing above are the manifestations of individualized associations). Complicating this further is the existence of conflicting associations which fire off even simultaneously, possibly causing major hurdles to the growth of love.  Pragmatism rarely plays a role as these associations are usually created during childhood experiences at a time when, ironically, we lack the experience necessary for pragmatism. No wonder we're all screwed up. 

Understanding a partner's values/beliefs is one way to begin to decipher the underlying associations. Understanding relationships with parents is another.  One reason, as stated earlier in the thread, that these relationships can be so difficult is that not only do we need to deal with the individual associations of another, but also the cultural ones and by 'association' (yeah, pun intended) the culturally derived familial ones as well. All of these still reduce to the individual, however... fathomable - yes.. worth the effort? To some degree, yes... though probably not enough lifespan available to understand even one other human being on more than a superficial depth. 

Ah well, enough of that oversimplified psychobabble. An interesting book, if you're into this sort of thing, is one which I found fascinating (mostly because it stimulates my natural narcissistic inclinations by validating a long held philosophy of my own) by James Hollis - The Eden Project: In Search Of The Magical Other.  Hollis, as a student of Jungian Psychology/Philosophy, does an excellent job of describing relationships from a (mostly) Jungian viewpoint.  Excellent.

[Shostakovich]

Interesting take Shosty.  You are in another of your contemplative yet spontaneous moods, eh.

Alaways

Please ponder on this.  Rather than sympathy, how about empathy?  Might as well add desire to the two.  Next I could add....

Nothing happens without desire, so I agree.  Desire is the bass note of the symphony.  If that is as far as it goes all you end with is the dull thudding of a boom-box car, annoying everyone.  Empathy is a fine suggestion.  I don't like using the word, however, as I live in now the properly yogic/Buddhistic NW.  Empathy is only one face of compassion.  It is an error to think, as many do here, that they are synonymous.


Ah Nietzsche, the AntiChrist of Basel.  Conjures bad memories from university days because I had to wade through Übermench with an incompetent professor.  Palpitations.

Bad professor is worse than no professor.  On the other hand Nietzsche's agenda is to confuse you.  Hence the many contradictory statements in his books.  For example he says "God is Dead", never quoted are his statements that "Some God in him made him declare God is dead", or more famously, "That the best way to promote something is by attacking it".  If you try to noodle on it too much you'll loose the general picture in trying to decipher the various ideas.  He wants you to think, or more importantly, to value for your self.  Moreover, Fred is a musical philosopher.  His meaning too is carried in the verse.  If it is not for you it's best to look elsewhere.

I appreciate Fred's theme of recurrence more than how Robert Frost expressed it.   

"Love is an irresistible desire to be irresistibly desired."

Frost's definition sounds like a hopeless psychological condition, someone who is consumed and who would flit when falling short.

I would not doubt that Frost describes the situation as many experience it, but woe unto them.

[Shostakovich]

The puzzle is in the disentanglement of the web of neuroassociations. 

Good luck with that.

Understanding a partner's values/beliefs is one way to begin to decipher the underlying associations.

That's the spirit.  I would write it this way: Examining a partner's values/beliefs is a good way to understand them. 

The Eden Project: In Search Of The Magical Other.  Hollis, as a student of Jungian Psychology/Philosophy, does an excellent job of describing relationships from a (mostly) Jungian viewpoint.  Excellent.

Duly noted

[Gator]

Shosty,

I tip my hat to you.  Clearly you made an A in that class. 

[Shostakovich]

Shosty,

I tip my hat to you.  Clearly you made an A in that class. 

Thanks.  Nietzsche has been an abiding interest for over 30 years.  It started post-college, however, so in fact I've never studied at the university.  Despite the 30 years involvement, I'm still learning.  It's the amazing thing, how some people are so far ahead of the crowd and yet, despite the intellectual capacity that probably put him in with the most influential people of the last 200 years, he never made it as a sage.  Poor Fred.

[Lily]

What a wonderful thread guys  I read it between my appointments in Toronto for today. A lot to think about and to learn for me.

I absolutely admire the writings of Shosty A greatest contribution to the forum!

Someone asked him about why he is still single while he is so smart. But guys, if this would be that simple, like the best man gets the best women. Life ain't so! Love is not something that could be earned or deserved - btw this would be one of things that I had no idea of when I was of 'marriageable' age. If I only knew this...    but helas, I'd still be the same as I am now

It is entirely possible for any woman to fall in love with the way a man loves her and treats her, regardless of his own characteristics.  Especially if such a woman has low self-esteem and was raised in a belief that it's more important to be loved than to love (a case with many RW, sadly).

Here I don't quite agree. A man can treat a woman like princess, but even his perfect behavior cannot help him earning the woman. Again, love cannot be earned. For female instincts, it is not that important what the man is doing, it is more important who is the man. A beloved man can get many, but not all, things forgiven.

[CanadaMan]

It's not a puzzle.  It is a huge mistake to think that 'love' can be conquered through intellect - that's because 'love' bubbles up from the unconscious.  You'll not solve it as you do not have all the information.  That is a problem many men face, they want to reduce this business to a formula....

 The general rule is that people go with what seems to advance their cause.  If it's sex and money then that will be what the relationship is about. 

My father who is in his 80's now told me not too long ago that all of life (human existence) can be reduced to just two things; sex and money.

Although that is quite an oversimplification to be sure, it can be made into a strong argument.

Even our tried and true "There are only two things in life that are certain: death and taxes" can be reduced to sex and money.

For without sex there would be no death and without money there would be no taxes.

When you think about the motivating factors for almost everything we do in our lives, sex and money eventually rear their heads.

[Shostakovich]

What a wonderful thread guys 

I absolutely admire the writings of Shosty A THE greatest contribution to the forum!

Shosty scores with intelligent, attractive ladies again! 

Someone asked him about why he is still single while he is so smart. But guys, if this would be that simple, like the best man gets the best women. Life ain't so! Love is not something that could be earned or deserved - btw this would be one of things that I had no idea of when I was of 'marriageable' age. If I only knew this...    but helas, I'd still be the same as I am now

Perhaps Shosty is still single because he is so smart?

Here I don't quite agree. A man can treat a woman like princess, but even his perfect behavior cannot help him earning the woman. Again, love cannot be earned. For female instincts, it is not that important what the man is doing, it is more important who is the man. A beloved man can get many, but not all, things forgiven.

Sometimes persistence pays, but often it is just annoying.