Marriage is about convenience?

[kievstar]

Aloe, when I needed to see a doctor in Belgium I used to take the train up to Rotterdam Netherlands. English not spoken at all in Brussels area.  Doctors in Brussels not good as well.  People I worked with if they had something seriously wrong would go to Netherlands.

[Aloe]

Aloe, when I needed to see a doctor in Belgium I used to take the train up to Rotterdam Netherlands. English not spoken at all in Brussels area.  Doctors in Brussels not good as well.  People I worked with if they had something seriously wrong would go to Netherlands.

Dunno about brussel, but i read that 30% or so of all patients in flemish hospitals are from the netherlands. Besides my insurance only works for belgian doctors i think.

[kievstar]

You will see many people from Belgium going to Netherlands doctors and vice versa from Netherlands to Belgium.  Some of it has to do with availability of getting a medical procedure done.  I found it strange that it was quicker to get knee surgery done in Rotterdam for Belgium's than in Brussels.  Were talking serious knee injuries with ligaments destroyed and no ability to walk.

English widely spoken in Netherlands and they speak English more clearly in my opinion than any country in the World including USA and Britain.

Check on your insurance as that maybe an issue. 

[Blues Fairy]

I know im not painting a good picture of my husband here, but the purpose of this and other topics is to try to understand why he behaves the way he does

Because he feels threatened.  People do not behave pretty when they feel cornered.  Perhaps when he grew up, his parents repressed his expression of negative emotions, so now he's instinctively afraid to talk about his feelings and prohibits you from doing so.  If he even perceives a suggestion to visit a therapist as a threat, looks like you'll have to go alone at first.  Don't wait for him to change and don't try to change him; the more you pressure the more he'll fight back.  Learn non-threatening and non-reactive ways of communicating with your husband.  Perhaps seeing your progress he'll be motivated to do the same.  

But while doing this work, you'll have to take a long hard look at your husband and exactly how much impact his negativity has on your marriage.  You need to gauge if this relationship truly fulfills your needs or if it's abusive and depriving.  Here's a good read: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=pd_sim_b_6

[BillyB]

I know im not painting a good picture of my husband here, but the purpose of this and other topics is to try to understand why he behaves the way he does, and how to try to change it a little?

Aloe, so far you've displayed a calm temperment to what is going on in your marriage but have you acted in an immature way to escalate any arguments with your husband? In the past you once mentioned you didn't vacuum the house for 3 weeks and your husband was upset about it. When you both came home, you went straight for the computer instead of making him happy. Did you make some imporovement on your part to clean house? Is your husband satisfied with that? Is he capable of being happy and is what he wants to be happy something that you can give him? Does he care only about his fun or is he doing things to make you happy too? We all could look at your marriage in different ways but you need be make an accurate and honest evaluation on what's happening to take steps in the right direction and if your husband is blind to see there is a problem calling you names, even if you acted like a bitch, then unfortunately he probably won't take steps in the right direction.

Once a person loses respect for their spouse, the love will be gone too. When your husband called you a name, he may believe it's true and if he continues to believe it even if he stops saying it, then things won't get better. He will care for you less and less.

Since he won't see a counselor, you will have to do the talking. Sit down with him and hug him. Rub your hands on his chest and through his hair. It will soften him up. Tell him all the fine qualtiies that you admire about him and what you will do better to make your marriage with him strong. Hopefully he will tell you his feelings and will try better himself. You'll get more out of him with sugar than sh!t. Hope he learns that too for your benefit.

[Shadow]

Dunno about brussel, but i read that 30% or so of all patients in flemish hospitals are from the netherlands. Besides my insurance only works for belgian doctors i think.

Having experience with both, I prefer the Belgian hospitals. Regarding doctors, it depends who you will find that you can trust.

[GQBlues]

Aloe-

No advice from me since I am not fully aware of your ‘real’ situation. The one thing I can say with great certainty is you always took the time to say your hubby is for the large part, great! I believe you said the last time around that he’s actually ‘great’ for roughly 99% of the time.

Knowing that, this little gap in your communication may have some similarities with what *I* experienced with my wife in the beginning. We used to gnaw, scratched, and clawed each other before – not because we didn’t communicate or we failed to understand each other. Rather, it was because of ‘how’ she sounded ‘confrontational’. My wife never meant to ‘sound’ this way but that’s largely how it all sounded to me before. I did stop to eventually recognize and understood where the problem lies.

Your posts suggest you’re very proficient in English however I can’t help but wonder how your verbal delivery is when you try to speak with your hubby. People can actually use the exact same words in a sentence like the next person but they may ‘sound’ in a completely different way.

I used to hear my wife talking to me and it used to sound ‘confrontational’ in the ‘way’ she conveyed them. Thus, I was automatically in a ‘defensive mode’. She didn’t mean it that way, but that’s how it sounded like to me. Consequently, we used to be at odds even before we were able to digest what the conversation was about in the first place.

When Russians speak their tongue it ‘sounds’ hard to me and I remember thinking before that I may be ‘hearing’ the tone of my wife’s message first before I heard the content of what she is saying. I mentioned this to my wife and since then we both made efforts in the ‘way’ we communicated with one another and almost immediately the rants and banter disappeared.
 
Just an idea. Good luck.

[I/O]

the purpose of this and other topics is to try to understand why he behaves the way he does, and how to try to change it a little?

Aloe: Whether or not all the "advice" you receive here is of any direct use or not is actually beside the point, what you have written above insures your marriage has absolutely the best shot you can give it. 

In such circumstances, understanding and subtle (a little) changes work, sledgehammer diplomacy does not (BF and others can give you all the technical / scientific explanation for that, I can't). I'm confident you're on the right path and the fact he reacts at all (If he was completely indifferent I would  be more concerned) suggests, to me at least, he may not be as far from the same path as you may imagine. I suspect, as you both did when you first fell in love, you both still want the same things and a struggling a little in finding the "Happy Median" path. It will come and do continue to remind yourself of what you wrote as quoted above.

[Seeker]

Aloe: Whether or not all the "advice" you receive here is of any direct use or not is actually beside the point, what you have written above insures your marriage has absolutely the best shot you can give it. 

In such circumstances, understanding and subtle (a little) changes work, sledgehammer diplomacy does not (BF and others can give you all the technical / scientific explanation for that, I can't). I'm confident you're on the right path and the fact he reacts at all (If he was completely indifferent I would  be more concerned) suggests, to me at least, he may not be as far from the same path as you may imagine. I suspect, as you both did when you first fell in love, you both still want the same things and a struggling a little in finding the "Happy Median" path. It will come and do continue to remind yourself of what you wrote as quoted above.

Aloe... I think I/O just said everything I feel about your question(s).  And much better than I could have.

But I sense from what you have said that you already knew it... and are just looking for other opinions to learn from, and expand your point of view.  Good luck!  Love isn't always easy, but it is worth it.

Just remember, there is a reason you both fell in love.  Hang onto that during the ups and downs which are inevitable in any relationship, as you learn to grow together as a couple, and not just as individuals.  It is a difficult transition.

[Daveman]

To clarify a few things, I'm not going to make any packed bags tests
I'm not thinking of divorcing, hopefully neither is he.
He only called me a bitch during that one argument, what i was emphasizing was that during that particular argument, he called me that many times right in the face. Honestly id forgotten all about that until somebody brought up name calling. So i think it's too early to speak of "emotional scars" from name calling. There is a lot more "scarring" from the 2 times i think he implied getting divorced as a threat, one of which was the subject of my other topic, where some say he didn't mean divorce at all. Sometimes i feel like im walking on a very very shaky bridge around here. One wrong step and you fall off. Thats not a very comfortable feeling.

That bold part, as well as the "bitch" comments along with the fact that you feel that you are walking on a very very shaky bridge...   not a killer, but absolutely not healthy for long term success.  And interesting for another reason I'll get to in a moment...

I do agree with I/O that you have a great attitude for the relationship. I agree with GQ that the delivery of the message from an RW sounds confrontational as hell most of the time (I had o get a grip on this aspect as well)...


Now this is interesting...

...because his free time is reserved strictly for having fun, and writing/talking about feelings does not fall under that category. Thats part of the reason why he doesnt tell me when something is wrong and keeps it bottled up until explosion, because he doesnt wanna endanger his fun and relaxation at any time.

Boy oh boy... you are basically describing me when I was younger... hell, even now sometimes at least about the "my free time is for fun and interesting things-- do not invade this space for any reason which may negatively impact my mood or my fun time or I will lash out with a killer vengeance which will destroy everything in my path until life becomes fun again".  Also I would rather have died than to express any emotions which might bring about a serious discussion which would kill my fun. Just as you say... bottled up until explosion, and then watch out...

Okay, so that's an exaggeration, but I sure do understand exactly where he is coming from (at least from your description).  What I had to learn was that emotions come out anyway. They're never really bottled up. We only think they are and yet, there they come -- usually in very unhealthy passive aggressive ways -- which kills the fun for OTHER people while building to that inevitable explosion.  If you can get him to understand that you really want to have fun time too, with him, but this is killing YOUR fun and that's just not fair.  Use terms like "fairness", "This isn't really fair to me"... usually the fun lovers also have a very protective sense of fairness.  Also something like this can really get his attention "You should be my rock, my protector, but I feel very afraid.... "   

Here's a tip that might help. Never ever blind side him with something when he's expecting peaceful fun time (unless it's an absolute emergency)... to do so will never bring the result you want in a million years.  Even now, when I'm expecting to go home, relax, have fun, and I'm greeted with "BLAAAAAAAAA blah blah blah BLAHHHHHHH", my immediate knee jerk response is not "honey, what's wrong and what are you feeling?", but rather I'm looking for the nearest window to toss her from -- for invading both my peace and hindering my fun.  It's a very self centric approach to life, but it's something you'll need to learn to deal with.  He may tone down the name calling, etc, but the "don't invade my fun time" will not change... ever.  Sooooooooo, back to the tip... make an appointment to discuss things... it works... you can say something like "not right now, but tomorrow I really need to talk to you about something serious.. there's not really a problem I need you to be ready to listen and understand my point of view.."

This forewarning makes a world of difference. It sounds silly and crazy, but it works wonders with me.  Since it's not thrown in my face, most of the time after about a half hour I'm in the mood to talk rather than waiting for tomorrow because there is no longer an invasive surprise. It has had a little time to sink in.

You have to be persistent in letting him know that he is not you, and regardless of how brilliant he is (or in my own case, thinks himself to be.. heh), he cannot feel your feelings because they are YOURS and are just as important in the relationship as his so stop downplaying them, ignoring them, or telling you how you feel (took me years to stop downplaying for the most part... though still do it.  sometimes...)  Try different ways of saying it until you find the one that sinks in. Eventually it will.

His outlook on fun probably makes him a blast to be around most of the time... lots of laughs, great feelings, and life is great... however the dark side of that kind of outlook/personality is that it can be a royal pain in the butt to get him to stop long enough to take some seriousness when it's necessary (always better to deal with unpleasant things later and have fun now).

Really Aloe, it took me years to find a balance with myself (positive vs negative emotions rather than just simply "emotions")... and sometimes I'm still unbalanced when it comes to fun in life - when I am not prepared for it.  Also, make some jokes, smile and laugh a lot,  when you tell him some things... the levity appears to "add fun" to a serious conversation and appears completely non threatening...

It's all part of learning to speak his language.  It does not mean to lose yourself in the process. You have to be able to express your emotions in YOUR way too... but the first step is that one of you has to begin... then you can find balance... together.

I hope that made some sense because it isn't really easy to admit how psychologically screwed up one actually is.. 

[Aloe]

Thanks a lot Daveman I'll try that.
Thanks for ideas everyone

[Aloe]

Because he feels threatened.  People do not behave pretty when they feel cornered.  Perhaps when he grew up, his parents repressed his expression of negative emotions, so now he's instinctively afraid to talk about his feelings and prohibits you from doing so.  If he even perceives a suggestion to visit a therapist as a threat, looks like you'll have to go alone at first.  Don't wait for him to change and don't try to change him; the more you pressure the more he'll fight back.  Learn non-threatening and non-reactive ways of communicating with your husband.  Perhaps seeing your progress he'll be motivated to do the same.  

But while doing this work, you'll have to take a long hard look at your husband and exactly how much impact his negativity has on your marriage.  You need to gauge if this relationship truly fulfills your needs or if it's abusive and depriving.  Here's a good read: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=pd_sim_b_6

Waht exactly do you mean by non-threatening and non-reactive? Can you please give me examples of threatening and reactive, and then turn them into non-threatening and non-reactive?
Thanks for the link, is there any other books anyone thinks would be useful?

[jb]

Re: Belgium Hospital Care;

I won't be attending...

Nearly half of euthanasia deaths in Belgium hospitals are directed by nurses who have not received consent from the patient to administer life-ending drugs, the Vancouver Sun reported.

In interviews with 248 nurses, a fifth admitted they had taken part in a euthanasia procedure based on the “assumption” that the patient wanted to die. Almost half of the nurses confessed to “terminations without request or consent.”

When euthanasia was made legal in Belgium in 2002, the law stated two conditions — that the patient give consent and the life-ending drugs be administered by a doctor. But the study published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal found the euthanasia is commonly carried out by nurses, “operating beyond the legal margins of their profession.”

Euthanasia accounts for two percent of deaths in Belgium annually.

(source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594422,00.html?test=latestnews )

Life must be really great in the EU if they already have Obama style death panels.

[jb]

Of course, there is an other aspect of the; "Convenience", of marriage that no one seems to want to address.  And that is sex.  Most young men, unless they are weird and regardless of their IQ, like to have sex with pretty, willing, passionate, and sexy women.  What could be more convenient than having a pretty and sexy woman sitting at home waiting and anticipating to have sex with you on a daily basis?  After all, having to make the rounds of the single bars looking for a willing partner, spending money you don't really want to blow, spending time weeding through the possible *good* sex partners, as opposed to those who will not really satisfy,,, let's face it, if you are married, you already have a known, done deal, maybe even a super done deal, waiting for you at home.

Being an arsehole, picking fights, making your best friend and lover pi$$ed off at you just doesn't make sense.  I sense there is something desperately wrong with this picture.  Whether it's Aloe's problem or her husbands remains to be seen.  I'd be digging a bit deeper.

[Gator]

Aloe,

The happiest, most well adjusted people I know are those who married young and have stayed together for 30 or more years as close friends.  For sure they had problems in their early years, yet they solved the problems in a manner that made them even closer. 

Central to their long success was love of course, yet also essential were comminication and respect.    So keep working.  From what you have shared with us with your many posts in many threads, I believe you have the skills for success.

[Blues Fairy]

Waht exactly do you mean by non-threatening and non-reactive? Can you please give me examples of threatening and reactive, and then turn them into non-threatening and non-reactive?
Thanks for the link, is there any other books anyone thinks would be useful?

The most typical example would be accusatory remarks intended to make your partner feel guilty.  Instead of understanding how wrong he had been and how much he needs to improve, he'll most likely feel attacked and stonewall or retaliate with reactive accusations. 

Accusatory: "You never take me on any trips, I sit at home all day" (message = you are an a**hole)
Non-accusatory: "It would be great to go somewhere with you and spend a weekend exploring new things together".

Threatening: "If you go to the US alone, I'm going to London or something, because I wanna go somewhere too" (message: ultimatum and war)
Non-threatening: "Let's plan something together once you're back from your trip, I think it would be fun".

Some examples of non-defensive responses to his possible attacks:

"I'm sorry you are upset";
"Let us talk about it when you're in a better mood";
"Let me think about it";
"You are certainly entitled to your opinion"; etc.

The trick is to argue without attacking and make your position statements without making an ultimatum.  E.g., "I believe it would be better for our marriage if we spent more quality time together"; or "I am willing to work on my communication but I have to see some attempt on your part, too"; etc.  If you ask for nothing, you can't be rejected, but if you express your request in a form of a non-accusatory and non-defensive position statement, there's much less chance that you'll be denied. 

A qualified therapist could help you practice non-defensive responses and trust me, they go a LONG way towards preventing future attacks.

As for books, here's a good guide on communication skills: http://www.amazon.com/Communication-Miracles-Couples-Effective-Conflict/dp/1573244171/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276278335&sr=1-1
You might think it's all rather obvious stuff, but try practicing and see how well it works...

Here's a good read about the victim behavior and how to break free from this trap http://www.lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html

 

[Daveman]

Truly excellent post BF.  Great examples.

A qualified therapist could help you practice non-defensive responses and trust me, they go a LONG way towards preventing future attacks.

Practice is the key to anything - including relationships and communication.  Try to think of it as exercise, or working out, or playing an instrument... whatever.. nothing that we accomplish is a one time deal and done with it.. "Boy that was a tough workout, glad THAT's over with."... "I took my piano lesson, I'm good to go"...

The more you practice communicating effectively, the better you will become at it.   It will most likely make a major difference if you keep at it.

[BC]

Quite honestly, a good kick in the butt also works.

We both got tired of walking on eggshells and the flat out 'say it like it is', although tough seems to work well here.

I agree that seeking assistance is positive, but also that a relationship should be able to withstand a hurricane just as a house should.

If not it wasn't built well enough.

[Aloe]

The most typical example would be accusatory remarks intended to make your partner feel guilty.  Instead of understanding how wrong he had been and how much he needs to improve, he'll most likely feel attacked and stonewall or retaliate with reactive accusations. 

Accusatory: "You never take me on any trips, I sit at home all day" (message = you are an a**hole)
Non-accusatory: "It would be great to go somewhere with you and spend a weekend exploring new things together".

i definitely do not practice accusatory remarks. The non-accusatory remark in that specific example won't work though. I always say let's go here or there, it looks like fun. He just says he doesn't wanna go, and i knew he didn't like going out before i married him, so what do i expect? And if i really really wanna go, i can go alone. But i see your point.

Threatening: "If you go to the US alone, I'm going to London or something, because I wanna go somewhere too" (message: ultimatum and war)
Non-threatening: "Let's plan something together once you're back from your trip, I think it would be fun".

Non-threatening just doesnt work in this case either. Well threatening doesnt work as well. Neither works, he simply won't go anywhere, cuz a) we can't afford it, b) he doesn't want to. When i said that phrase about london, i was just trying to get away with going somewhere expensive. Cuz if he goes, then i get to go too. Otherwise i dont get to go anywhere at all.
Thanks for good examples.
I just hope that when we have more money, he will change his attitude about going places. Cuz when i ask him, what would you do if you had 100 mil bucks? His answer is "put it in the bank". And what car would you get if you could get any car in the world? He says he'd keep our (old crappy super mega dirty 17 year old) car. I call it hamster syndrome

[Aloe]

Just to clarify, i did say "Let's plan something together once you're back from your trip, I think it would be fun", he just says what i mentioned above in a) and b), but i see what you mean how different approaches cause completely different reactions

[Voyager36]

Neither works, he simply won't go anywhere, cuz a) we can't afford it, b) he doesn't want to. 

Aloe, That really doesn't sound good. 
Marriage is supposed to have some compromise, both partners have to give a little.

if it wasn't for the money issue do you think you could go somewhere together? Or would he still refuse?

[GregfromGa]

I know Aloe isn't here asking for sympathy but I cant help but feel for her.  She's a young woman who is asking her young husband to go some places and see some things. I don't think she is demanding Bora Bora or New York City. I would think that a simple overnight train ride and a few days in another European will suffice from time to time. You Europeans have it lucky. Your train system opens up a world of inexpensive choices. Hopefully things will get better for Aloe.

[Misha]

He just says he doesn't wanna go, and i knew he didn't like going out before i married him, so what do i expect?

He does have a point, but I take it your husband has never heard this said: "Men marry women hoping they won't change; women marry men hoping they will." The question is whether you can accept the man that you married even if he does not change.

Neither works, he simply won't go anywhere, cuz a) we can't afford it, b) he doesn't want to.

Is "a" simply an excuse because "b" he doesn't want to travel? In any case, you should not expect any miraculous changes. If he does not like the idea of traveling with you at his age, it is unlikely he will want to travel more in the future.

[Blues Fairy]

Just to clarify, i did say "Let's plan something together once you're back from your trip, I think it would be fun", he just says what i mentioned above in a) and b), but i see what you mean how different approaches cause completely different reactions

That's exactly what the purpose is; not to get immediately what you're asking for (travel etc.) but to train him not to react to you as a threat/accuser.  Perks will come later.

[Boethius]

Non-threatening just doesnt work in this case either. Well threatening doesnt work as well. Neither works, he simply won't go anywhere, cuz a) we can't afford it, b) he doesn't want to.

It sounds as if he is, by nature, a homebody.  If that is the case, money won't change this.  From your other posts, you make your husband sound very stubborn.  Does he compromise on anything?  Because if he doesn't now, he won't later.