Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[tim 360]

Low intelligence tends to be correlated with low impulse control, which can be a desirable mating trait because it looks a lot like confidence.  The age of first intercourse is significantly lower for men of low intelligence than for high intelligence.

In the modern age intelligence matters a lot.  But, in an earlier pre-civilization age, intelligence probably mattered less.  If the warriors from one cave are going to go gang up on the warriors in the next cave and take their food and women, low impulse control will probably help them be successful at that.

In pre-civilization tribal groups I am confident that intelligence played a far greater role than you espouse.  The tribe with the best strategy and the tribe that created the best weapons (ie: sharp flints) and the tribe with the best supply lines and overall organization and brave warriors would likely prevail.  In both Old and New Stone Ages intelligence conferred many benefits. 

[Jooky]

In a modern context, women chasing after James Bond makes sense to me. He's smooth.

In an evolutionary context however, what advantage does a woman have for her or her offspring by choosing a man who will impregnate her, abandon her and leave her to raise a child alone? I don't see the logic or the evidence.

The reality seems to be that for thousands of years all kinds of humans manage to reproduce, and the type depicted in Aloe's documentary clip seem to reproduce more often. 

[TwoBitBandit]

I'm enjoying your TR TBB...  great writing...  but I'd encourage you to relax.  Eventually it just comes down to two (genuine) people feeling confident and comfortable enough to let love happen.

TwoBit, others are telling you the same.  Its the weekend, enjoy yourself.  This is the time to have lots of fun.  I hope we do not see you back here posting until Monday.  And then tell us about what happened.

My writing style is often dry and clinical, but that doesn't mean I'm not having fun.  When I go out with the girls I laugh and they laugh.  Sometimes I do silly things like hold their hands and twirl them in the middle of a busy sidewalk, or make up silly nicknames for them that make them laugh, or sometimes I tell an embarrassing story from my childhood that makes them laugh.  They say stuff that makes me laugh.  Today I went on some rides on the river embankment, that was fun.  Don't think I'm not having fun.

In fact, I'm having more fun in my life than I ever have.  I'm taking ballroom dance lessons.  I got my motorcycle license and a motorcycle, and I ride it up in the Santa Cruz mountains.  I work less and play more.  I'm enjoying my life more than I ever had.  And that fun extends to chasing Russian girls.

I very much remember a time that AJ (who all the old-timers here know) said, "If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong."  I wholly agree with him.  AJ, if you're reading this: don't worry, I'm having fun.  (But I'm still doing some things wrong.  It's possible have lots of fun and still do things wrong.)

[chivo]

I have no doubt you're having fun. Chasing girls in Russia is fun.

I think after reading this thread, and it's interesting, is that you're way overthinking things. I think playing a lot of the "game" on these women can go both ways, but mostly bad if you're not ready to come on strong to one, and just one woman.

Of the long term relationships I've had here since 2000 (3), and that includes living in three cities, with the first 4 years coming and going from America to here, all of them I started with no uncertain terms. IOW, I came on strong. I left no doubt about my intentions, and no doubt that they were the ONLY women I wanted to be with. All moved in within a week with me.

Another thing I have noticed over these years is that RW don't f*ck around. Oh they love to have fun, love to laugh and get the most out of life but, they're damn serious when it comes to men. They want to hook up and quick if the chemistry is there.

They know it's a buyer's market and they're the ones selling. High quality men are in short supply here (just ask them) and you better put a strong down payment if you want to qualify for their particular real estate. They're ready for you to tell them that you will take care of them, you will be there when they need you, and that you will treat them like they're the best thing on this planet, which they are. I guarantee that if you do this you'll have one hellova time together. That's the "game"

The problem with chasing girls is that you get into that what you called "the kid in the candy store" syndrome coupled with the "maybe the next one will be better" attitude. It's a vicious cycle, no question.

You speak of avi8tr and his ordeals, and while I agree he took some unwarranted heat on that thread, the fact remains he's been here way to often not to have found a girl IMO. I understand it. I sympathize with him, but I cant help but think about the definition of "insanity" when I read his story. Me thinks he's a chronic chaser.

My hope is that you don't go down that path. There is no perfect girl, or better yet, there are many. Your girl is here. She's in Nizhny Novgorod, she's in Novosibirsk. She's also in Omsk, Tomsk, and a dozen other cities throughout Russia. Are you going to make it a point to visit every city in this country to find her, a la avi8tr? Or are you going to step up and pay the piper?

You can't tell me you haven't met some quality girls. I meet them all the time. If I look hard enough, I can find flaws in everyone. Pull the trigger, get on with your "great" life by sharing it with someone. And, oh, one more thing...never look back.  

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 7: Friday, July 2.

I’m scheduled to meet Marina (a new girl) at three.  In the early afternoon I get in touch with Anna, and we agree to meet at 6:15 near where she works.  Around noon I start calling some new girls and setting up a couple of dates during the day on Saturday.  I keep my evening free for now to see what happens with Anna tonight.

At around 2:00 I sent an SMS to Marina to tell that I’ll be in front of the theater at 3:00.  She replies, asking me to move it to 4:00.  It’s not a problem since I don’t have to meet Anna until 6:15.  At 4:00 I’m there and I don’t see her.  At 4:10 I send her an SMS, and she says she’s in a birch grove with her girlfriend.  (I had to look up the word for bitch in my electronic dictionary.)  I’m like, WTF?  I give her a call and ask her where she is and when she’s going to meet me in front of the theater.  She says she’s busy, and suggests that we meet at 5 or 6.  I say I can’t, and then I’m speechless.  I’m just standing there like a dumb idiot holding the phone listening to dead air and waiting for her to say something.  After about twenty seconds the phone call ends.  Ten minutes later I get an SMS from her asking why I hung up on her and suggested that it was rude.  I’m like, WTF?

This girl is pretty hot AND she’s 24, so a little bit of flakiness is almost expected.  But this was just over the top.  If I was dating this girl in the US I might drop a nuclear alpha response on her to get back the frame.  (It would be 95% likely to get no response and 5% to get agreement, but at least I’d have control of the frame if she accepted.)  But I don’t really want to mess with this one in Russia.  I’ll just pull down the next girl.  I go back to my flat.

I leave my flat at 5:45 and walk to Anna’s work, arriving right on time.  She shows up about ten minutes late.  She’s wearing a denim miniskirt and a see-through sweater.  She’s hot.  She hugs me and takes my arm, and we go to a nearby restaurant and order some salads and sashlik.  It’s quite good.  I talk about my impressions of Russia.  She tells me about the side business she’s trying to start and shows me some of the business cards that she had printed up.

Then we get in a taxi and go to the river embankment.  She holds my arm the whole time, but it almost feels like we’re having the same date again.  We ride a couple of the rides… which is fun.  She wants to take me to a nightclub.  I’m not that much into nightclubs.  But, I’m always anxious to see new things in a new city, so why not.  We have some time until the nightclubs get going.  We head back to center and I suggest we had to a café for an hour until the night clubs get going.  We do that, and we have a chat.  I guide the conversation toward relationships and talk about some of my past relationships, and what I’m looking for.  She plays along with the topic but materially avoids my questions.  Once it’s clear she isn’t going to go there, I change the topic.

We head to the nightclub.  It’s still not very busy but it’s picking up.  We stand at the bar and sway together with the music holding hands.  It starts to pick up over the next hour, and I lead her on the dance floor to dance.  It’s quite a scene in the club: there’s about eighty Russian girls and about five guys.  I’ve seen some unbalanced ratios in FSU nightclubs, but this was just over the top.  Anna and I dance for about 45 minutes, then we leave the club and get in a taxi.  We first go and drop her off.  In the cab she sits really close.  Her leg is against mine, and she grabs my arm the whole time and keeps looking into my eyes.  Yet, when we finally get to her house she still won’t let me get the kiss.  This has just gone on too long: she’s just playing with me.  We've had the same date now for four times in a row and it's not materially moving forward in either conversational content or physically.

I get back in the taxi and he takes me home.  I have a great chat with the taxi driver, he’s a cool guy.  We talk about cultural differences between Russians and Americans, about his family, and about Russian girls.  Some of the taxi drivers are pretty cool guys and I enjoy talking with them.

I’ve completely lost the frame with Anna.  I need to put her on the back burner or just stop seeing her.  I need to sleep on it, but I think the right strategy is to try to fill the whole day tomorrow with other girls.  Anna and I vaguely agreed to meet tomorrow but we don’t have a time.  I’ll just give her a dumb excuse (as she’s done to me) and go do something else.   I can still write her, but I’m not hopeful about that.  I made my bet on this girl and lost.  Sometimes you drop the girl, sometimes the girl drops you.  So it goes.

Tomorrow I already have dates at 1 and 3 with new girls.  In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls.  There’s plenty of prospects I think.

[daveyj]

I think that on this board most members generally define an alpha male as someone who is taking the same approach they are (or did) to find their own wife.  Any definition which differs is going to encounter a lot of resistance.

I think the discussion on alpha males runs the risk of derailing a good TR.  Congrats to TBB for staying on message.

[GQBlues]

TBB-

Just for old time's sake, 2 cents from my way...

FWIW, considering your language proficiency and your newly adopted social play, I think the very best way to test your mettle now is to just cruise the city proper and start meeting women on a whim. Back in '04, I made the statement in these forums that Novo appeared untapped to me. Beautiful women in every corner and hardly any foreigner on sight.

Get out on the public scene and just meet women. If they herd, hit the group and you'll be surprised at how easy it really is....

I agree with Chivo upthread. Forget strategies. It screams insecurities. It's akin to a guy about to walk up to a woman armed with a pre-structured line.

Anyway, good luck on your trip regardless...

[Gator]

But I don’t really want to mess with this one [Marina] in Russia.

Wise decision.  She's self-centered and/or immature and doesn't care about your plans.

Pardon me now while I play Monday morning quarterback.  I know you are thoroughly schooled in "game," something that I have never studied, and I am bewildered by a couple of your actions.  IMO you seemed weak, and surely that is not the persona you wish to convey.

I guide the conversation toward relationships and talk about some of my past relationships, and what I’m looking for.  She plays along with the topic but materially avoids my questions.

I hope you did not mention any woman from your past.  This is a big no-no.  There is nothing good that can happen. 

While AW like talking about past relationships, I met few RW who wanted to know.  If a few ask you, respond with "I am here with you.  I don't want to discuss any women from the past.  Suffice it to say I do not have a girlfriend now  and I have no lingering feelings for women from the past." 

You have enough experience to know what you want in a woman.  Just explain what you seek without justifying with examples of past experiences.  Surely the "You have got game" books say to avoid mentioning past experiences.

Her leg is against mine, and she grabs my arm the whole time and keeps looking into my eyes.  Yet, when we finally get to her house she still won’t let me get the kiss.

 

This is bewildering.  Warm positive signs, then frigid paka.  Were you weak about getting a kiss, being a proper gentleman?  Maybe she wants a stronger attempt. RW who like confident men want the man to take the lead.  "The strong man knows what to do."

Before deciding that she is history, explain to her the contradiction and ask directly what's the story.  I would have asked her that before saying 'paka.'  Now you have to do it by phone.   Or better yet, don't talk about it!  Simply meet her one more time and make your best move just after she says "Privet,"  maybe prefacing your move with Chivo's guidance.  Then talk about it if necessary to talk. Who knows whats in her pretty head.  [Make sure your apartment is clean and ready for guests].

More than likely she is history.   I have seen a young RM following a pretty RW and almost begging.  I asked my then future wife (and later ex-wife) about it, and she says that is what a RM must do to win typical beautiful women, especially if he has made a mistake.  So plead dumb and ask her.   Don't beg, however.  Asking her in a strong WTF voice is not begging.

Tomorrow I already have dates at 1 and 3 with new girls.  In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls.

Or spend more time with either the 1pm or 3 pm dyev.  Or do  GQ's  suggestion (great idea).  Yes, there is abundant opportunity.

[Misha]

Another thing I have noticed over these years is that RW don't f*ck around. Oh they love to have fun, love to laugh and get the most out of life but, they're damn serious when it comes to men. They want to hook up and quick if the chemistry is there.

They know it's a buyer's market and they're the ones selling. High quality men are in short supply here (just ask them) and you better put a strong down payment if you want to qualify for their particular real estate. They're ready for you to tell them that you will take care of them, you will be there when they need you, and that you treat them like they're the best thing on this planet, which they are. I guarantee that if you do this you'll have one hellova time together. That's the "game"

Well said Chivo 

I agree with you completely.

[chivo]

Day 7: Friday, July 2.
I’ve completely lost the frame with Anna.  I need to put her on the back burner or just stop seeing her.  I need to sleep on it, but I think the right strategy is to try to fill the whole day tomorrow with other girls.  Anna and I vaguely agreed to meet tomorrow but we don’t have a time.  I’ll just give her a dumb excuse (as she’s done to me) and go do something else.   I can still write her, but I’m not hopeful about that.  I made my bet on this girl and lost.  Sometimes you drop the girl, sometimes the girl drops you.  So it goes.

Tomorrow I already have dates at 1 and 3 with new girls.  In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls.  There’s plenty of prospects I think.

Not sure about the frame, but reread what you wrote here. Is this acting like someone who knows what he wants? I don't think so.

If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation. I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl. Give it your best shot, because as far as I'm concerned, you're not. I can't believe that's your best shot

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.

Otherwise continue to chase the proverbial 2 rabbits.

[Gator]

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.

Gosh, Chivo, you and I are saying the same and I am not a Chicano.  This is a universal concept.

[Gtex]

Chivo:

That was rough, but I think you are right on both counts.  

Everybody talks about difference a la AW vs RW/UW.  Right on about decision making and doing it quick.  There is a real (though general) difference in type.  Not only can they, they are often willing.  So fast, so strong it can surprise.

And Chivo, you live there so you have adapted to the physical sense.  TBB is allowing the physical space appropriate to Simi Valley where one false move can have consequences.

Misha and Chivo are telling true (and this ain't in many books), it is the "Be the Man" thing, Russian style.  Go push some buttons, light 'em up and get back to us.   Clarity lies just around a corner...

[chivo]

Gosh, Chivo, you and I are saying the same and I am not a Chicano.  This is a universal concept.

And at the same time since I was writing this while you posted. Must be the end of the world is near .

 

[ML]

On my recent trip to Kharkiv, I kissed 11 of the 12 women I dated on first or second date.  I didn't want to kiss the 12th.  TBB if you really want to kiss a gal, then don't wait until the two of you are about to part.  At that point, the gal is thinking about it as she knows it is the traditional time, and maybe thinking she doesn't want it or wants to play hard to get.

So just give the kiss (doesn't have to be a big long one) at some odd point.  Quite often, right after finishing a meal, I get up from my chair, move over toward her chair and just lean in and give a quick kiss.  Once the first kiss is accomplished, then the tension is off and more can follow . . . or not.

Or, on second date (probably not on first), just as you meet, give a quick kiss.  It may startle her.  If so, just laugh and say something like: No need to worry now about when first kiss will occur.  This technique and reasoning was in a Woody Allen movie.

[Lily]

I'd also encourage TBB not to see Anna's lack of kisses as sign of indifference! She shows all good signals! I see TBB does not have much time, but women are so much slower and more shy in showing affection. Talk to her directly.

[GQBlues]

Marina falls in the DBB category. As for Anna, dunno, in my street cred, it is always the woman that finds herself leaning over for a kiss.

TBB is allowing the physical space appropriate to Simi Valley where one false move can have consequences.

Man, some of the prettiest women I've met are from Simi Valley.

[Daveman]

I'd also encourage TBB not to see Anna's lack of kisses as sign of indifference! She shows all good signals! I see TBB does not have much time, but women are so much slower and more shy in showing affection. Talk to her directly.

Use a combination of this, Chivo's suggestion, and the chloroform hand trick... That should do it! 

[Misha]

I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl.

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her.

I agree. TBB, keep in mind that Russian women have heard the numerous stories about the sex tourists. She may be wary. The fact that she is still talking to you means that she is interested IMHO. Do as Chivo says. Tell her that you have X days left in Novosibirsk and that you want to spend every moment between now and then with her. She has to work, yes, but tell her that you want to have breakfast with her before work, lunch with her and then spend your evenings with her.... At this point, you should understand whether you like her or not and she should know whether she has any chemistry for you. If you do like her and think that she might be the One, then do as Chivo says and tell her straight out. If it doesn't work out you can meet new women until you leave Russia. You can always perfect your "game" in Silicon Valley

[GQBlues]

C'mon fellas...whatever happened to "if a Russian woman likes you..." talk?    
They've been out 4 dates and TBB did in fact tried to kiss her.

Dunno maybe I'm missing something here...waaaaay toooo many women to split pea with one, IMO. The problem could be that were not seeing here is TBB subconsciously acts like a cuddly pup around her and she senses this and is starting to regard him somewhere between disposable to annoying. She needs a couple more dates to determine exactly which. All the Alpha-talk is maybe starting to slip through the cracks.

[Misha]

C'mon fellas...whatever happened to "if a Russian woman likes you..." talk?   

Different women have different behaviors. Some women will pursue a guy more aggressively (hence the "if a Russian woman likes you bla-bla-bla), while others will not be as forward. IMHO, at some point a guy has to stop and decide if one woman that he has met is worth pursuing. If yes, then, it never hurts to be honest as opposed to these macho Alpha male games. She hasn't insisted that he spend lavishly on her, she clearly is not desperate, and if he likes her, then he may have to take the risk of actually telling her.

[Kuna]

Not sure about the frame, but reread what you wrote here. Is this acting like someone who knows what he wants? I don't think so.

If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation. I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl. Give it your best shot, because as far as I'm concerned, you're not. I can't believe that's your best shot

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.

Otherwise continue to chase the proverbial 2 rabbits.

Absolutely correct...    I hope TBB understands what several of us are saying while he has the chance.

[GQBlues]

Different women have different behaviors. Some women will pursue a guy more aggressively (hence the "if a Russian woman likes you bla-bla-bla), while others will not be as forward. IMHO, at some point a guy has to stop and decide if one woman that he has met is worth pursuing. If yes, then, it never hurts to be honest as opposed to these macho Alpha male games. She hasn't insisted that he spend lavishly on her, she clearly is not desperate, and if he likes her, then he may have to take the risk of actually telling her.

You may well be right, Misha. For TBB's sake, I hope so...but this sure is starting to appear much like his center of interest from his last trip.

[Jooky]

I agree with all of these guys.

When you've got Gator and Chivo and GQ and Misha and Kuna and now me in general agreement, it can't possibly be wrong! 

First of all, good call with Marina. No need to waste time with girls like that, anywhere.

Second, I'll just pull out some quotes that really stand out for me.

Another thing I have noticed over these years is that RW don't f*ck around. Oh they love to have fun, love to laugh and get the most out of life but, they're damn serious when it comes to men. They want to hook up and quick if the chemistry is there.

Yup.

I hope you did not mention any woman from your past.  This is a big no-no.  There is nothing good that can happen.

Agree. If a girl wants to talk about the past, let her bring it up. This makes me wonder about what GQ said:

The problem could be that were not seeing here is TBB subconsciously acts like a cuddly pup around her and she senses this and is starting to regard him somewhere between disposable to annoying.

All the cuddling and hand holding along with trying to talk about past relationships rather than making a serious move to further this relationship seems to be leaning too much towards the ‘nice guy’ ‘just friends’ syndrome you want to avoid. Russian men can be very direct and aggressive, and talking about past (or current, to be more realistic) relationships is not good.

If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation.

They know it's a buyer's market and they're the ones selling. High quality men are in short supply here.

This is where I think you’re blowing it with Anna. Playing nonchalant and aloof might be good game in Cali. It sends the message "I'm a busy guy, I've got things to do." On a trip like this it sends the message "I'm a busy guy, I've got girls to do."

That puts you at the level of the type of man that these girls can find in Russia. I think Anna’s been hesitating, because she’s not sure if you’re for real or if you’re a player. If you fill your day with other girls, her fears will be confirmed and you can write her off for good.

Whatever girl you don’t go out with on a Saturday knows she’s not your top choice. I think today’s not the day for messing around with new potentials that were already down on your list. It’s the day to make a bold and definitive move with Anna.
 
If you get the ‘just friends’ treatment, you can move on to your other dates without uncertainty, and in the worst case today you can:

Get out on the public scene and just meet women.

Especially with your command of Russian, this should be very easy in Novosibirsk. If I can do it, you can too! 

[Blues Fairy]

Anna is clearly waiting for some meaningful words and not getting them.  TwoBit, you are a bit too busy playing your frame-game; showing off and trying to impress her and essentially force her to make the next step.  Instead, you should open your mind and listen, understand, formulate what is it that you really like about her (except that she's hot) - and then TELL HER as much.  Otherwise, she'll realize soon enough that you are just a shallow womanizer and not really into her that much, except for the physical attraction.  You won't get very far with attempts to kiss her. 

A little less frame, a bit more depth. 

[daveyj]

Poor TBB - he went from being told "hey, thanks for the great TR!!" to " you're obviously a shallow game playing womanizer"!.  And all while he is still in the middle of his trip.

As the saying goes, there are way too many cooks in this kitchen.