Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[TwoBitBandit]

I think that on this board most members generally define an alpha male as someone who is taking the same approach they are (or did) to find their own wife.  Any definition which differs is going to encounter a lot of resistance.

Now that's something I can agree with!

+1 for daveyj

Poor TBB - he went from being told "hey, thanks for the great TR!!" to " you're obviously a shallow game playing womanizer"!.  And all while he is still in the middle of his trip.

As the saying goes, there are way too many cooks in this kitchen.

+2 for daveyj

This reminds me of a story I once heard.  A boy and an old man are riding on a donkey.  Someone yells out, "You're killing that poor donkey!  Only one you should ride on it."  So, the old man gets off.  Later, someone else yells out, "Boy, let that old man ride.  You're young and full of vitality."  So, they change places.  Later, someone else yells out, "Hey, old man, why aren't you letting that boy ride the donkey.  You're older, stronger, and tougher than him."  So, they decide not to ride the donkey at all and both walk.  Then someone yells out, "Hey, why aren't either of you riding the donkey?"

Honestly though, I appreciate all the feedback.  I think one of the mistakes people make in life is to take everything so personally.  If you can drop your "it's an attack and I need to take it personally" frame and adopt a "this is feedback.  Is it useful feedback and should I use it?" frame everything in life becomes much easier.

[TheTraveler]

TBB's trip report is fascinating.

Regardless of whether some here agree or disagree with his approach, I have to applaud the effort he's given to post all of his experiences -- and also his brutal honesty.

He's posted both the good and the bad.  He has not held anything back.

TBB seems like a smart guy.  I have a feeling he'll emphasize what worked, and probably adjust those things that didn't work.

Hopefully, some guys who have never traveled to Russia will read this report... and -- as a result -- hopefully they'll be better prepared.

After all, learning from others' experiences is probably the highest value of this forum.

Great stuff, TBB!  Keep 'em coming!

[brad5959]

TBB,

like someone else in the thread said, you need to pick one girl and go for it.  Anna is your girl.  she wore a mini skirt and a see through blouse, she grabs your arm, she looks at you fondly--so what if she does not let you kiss her at the end of the date.  these women have radar--they can see right through you, and they feel you are insincere.  your attempt to control the frame and the game is very evident to them.  they know you are dating multiple women.  why should Anna give in to you, if you have not given in to her??  you need to throw your game book out the window and do the opposite.  open your heart to her, show her that you are sincere and vulnerable.  if she rejects you again, don't take it as a rejection.  what she is really saying, is that you have not adequately sold yourself to her, you have not overcome her objections (the 4th step to the sale).  have you qualified her properly??  (the 2nd step).  do you really know what her needs and wants are?  go back and ask her.  it's all about her at  this point, not you.  listen intently, and NEVER discuss past relationships.  she wants to know that you are sincerely, totally, completely into her.  maybe she is a virgin, how do you know??  at the very least, although she has clearly shown she likes you, she does not feel that you are sincerely reciprocating.  spend all remaining time with her.  buy her the most beautiful bouquet of red roses you can find.  buy her something small but special to her (you should know what is special to her if you have properly qualified her).  ask her what is her favorite restaurant and take her there.  ask her about her parents and friends and let her know that you want to meet them.  and lower your impulse control and let nature take its course!!  invite her into your apartment to show her some pictures of your family.  tell her you really admire a women who can cook and ask her if she would cook you some Borsht.  and Good Luck!!  don't let your trip be a bust!!

[BillyB]

Here is a video that shows where this is all headed

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo[/youtube]

Funny video. Intelligence is certainly overrated and it's not necessary for a species survival. Bacteria lived and reproduced successfully for hundreds of millions of years just fine.

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists.

I'll be the first to disagree with Chivo and the rest of the guys on this. It didn't work for Al Gore and the masseuse who's reporting him for grabbing her. One reason RW have told me that they enjoy dating me more than RM is because I don't put my hands all over them so quick. If you want to successfully chase women, walk, don't run.

Telling her she's the only one and makes you forget other women works with immature young ladies who are turned on by smooth lines without understanding if they even if they aren't true. Mature women would only take those words to heart if she knows they aren't BS.
 
When a woman first gives you her lips to kiss, you can kiss and kiss again and then make some moves with your hands. If she wants you, she's not going to resist. Grabbing her while she resists sounds like a desperate move by a desperate man. If you rush to get laid, you probably won't get laid at all.

 She’s hot.  She hugs me and takes my arm, and we go to a nearby restaurant and order some salads and sashlik.  

Twobit, you've read a lot of books, studied Russian, and did lots of physical training. I've read no "how to" books, studied no Russian and the last time I did any serious exercise was 10 years ago when playing volleyball regularly.

I commend you for making yourself into a better man and you being better will be better for the women in your life too. You are doing more self improvement than most guys ever would. But your lack of kisses on your dates who you communicated with before your arrival surprises me. They should be excited to meet you instead of resisting. A man should have a minimum of 2 kisses before the end of a date with a RW. One kiss is in the beginning and the second kiss at then end. The kisses aren't suppose to be a sexual move but it's simply extending your greetings to a woman. If a guy isn't getting two kisses on a date with a RW, either he's doing something wrong or there's something wrong with the woman.

What I quoted above tells me the women are making the first move and you are acting shy. Why does she have initiate contact hugging you and taking your arm? You should initiate a kiss when you and her first see each other. I hope to read in your "real time" report you are getting a minimum of 2 kisses on every date from now on.

[Daveman]

I think you guys are really making too much about the kisses.  Could be wrong,  but I think she's just being a little distant with the kisses because she understands he's seeing other women, imagines him kissing them too and flat doesn't like it.  And really, he seems to like her best thus far, but unless she's really knocked his socks off, he shouldn't stop meeting the others. 

I'm really enjoying the report so far TBB, keep it coming...

[BillyB]

I think you guys are really making too much about the kisses.  Could be wrong,  but I think she's just being a little distant with the kisses because she understands he's seeing other women, imagines him kissing them too and flat doesn't like it. 

Dave, kisses in the FSU is a popular way to greet people. You've been to the FSU enough times, you should know this....unless you're looking at T & A instead of people's faces.  Friends kiss among each other. Girls kiss among each other. Even if Twobit is not romantically involved with a woman, he should greet her with a kiss and say goodbye with a kiss....as a friend does and he should have established friendship with the ladies during correspondence.

[TwoBitBandit]

I hope you did not mention any woman from your past.  This is a big no-no.  There is nothing good that can happen.

Some of the resistance I get from girls is that they wonder why I’m in my late thirties and not married already.  From their perspective it’s a fair question, especially in a culture where marriage usually occurs earlier.  So, I want to indicate that I’ve had long relationships.  I can see why you don’t want to go into every single detail, but do want to convey the message “I’ve had relationships.”   Sending a message of “I’ve never been married AND I’ve never had any real relationships” seems like it could be a big red flag to her, and being evasive in response to questions seems like it would just give her that impression.

That’s just my thinking.  Several of you made this comment, so I’m interested in understanding it better.

This is bewildering.  Warm positive signs, then frigid paka.  Were you weak about getting a kiss, being a proper gentleman?  Maybe she wants a stronger attempt. RW who like confident men want the man to take the lead.  "The strong man knows what to do."

Before deciding that she is history, explain to her the contradiction and ask directly what's the story.  I would have asked her that before saying 'paka.'  Now you have to do it by phone.   Or better yet, don't talk about it!  Simply meet her one more time and make your best move just after she says "Privet,"  maybe prefacing your move with Chivo's guidance.  Then talk about it if necessary to talk. Who knows whats in her pretty head.  [Make sure your apartment is clean and ready for guests].

I have seen a young RM following a pretty RW and almost begging.  I asked my then future wife (and later ex-wife) about it, and she says that is what a RM must do to win typical beautiful women, especially if he has made a mistake.  So plead dumb and ask her.   Don't beg, however.  Asking her in a strong WTF voice is not begging.

If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation. I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl. Give it your best shot, because as far as I'm concerned, you're not. I can't believe that's your best shot

You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.

Everybody talks about difference a la AW vs RW/UW.  Right on about decision making and doing it quick.  There is a real (though general) difference in type.  Not only can they, they are often willing.  So fast, so strong it can surprise.  And Chivo, you live there so you have adapted to the physical sense.  TBB is allowing the physical space appropriate to Simi Valley where one false move can have consequences.  Misha and Chivo are telling true (and this ain't in many books), it is the "Be the Man" thing, Russian style.  Go push some buttons, light 'em up and get back to us.   Clarity lies just around a corner...

I’ve watched Russian guys in action.  They have a much more caveman “Me Tarzan!” sort of game, and it probably the right thing to do in this culture.  And perhaps Anna is expecting me to go caveman on her and surprised when I’m not.

That’s part of the problem with dating in another culture.  The field is just so strange.  I do things that seem unusual to her.  She does things that seem strange to me.  And time is artificially short.

On my recent trip to Kharkiv, I kissed 11 of the 12 women I dated on first or second date.  I didn't want to kiss the 12th.  TBB if you really want to kiss a gal, then don't wait until the two of you are about to part.  At that point, the gal is thinking about it as she knows it is the traditional time, and maybe thinking she doesn't want it or wants to play hard to get.

So just give the kiss (doesn't have to be a big long one) at some odd point.  Quite often, right after finishing a meal, I get up from my chair, move over toward her chair and just lean in and give a quick kiss.  Once the first kiss is accomplished, then the tension is off and more can follow . . . or not.

I agree with this advice, and actually I even said the same once earlier in this thread.  I didn’t add it to the trip report, but I made another attempt at the metro station after we left the river embankment while we were waiting for the metro.  I’m just so disoriented by her actions.  She always grabs my arm or my hand right after we leave every building.  We touch shoulders a lot as we walk.  She picks stuff of my shirt.  All of this usually means she’s ready.

I'd also encourage TBB not to see Anna's lack of kisses as sign of indifference! She shows all good signals! I see TBB does not have much time, but women are so much slower and more shy in showing affection. Talk to her directly.

I agree. TBB, keep in mind that Russian women have heard the numerous stories about the sex tourists. She may be wary. The fact that she is still talking to you means that she is interested IMHO. Do as Chivo says. Tell her that you have X days left in Novosibirsk and that you want to spend every moment between now and then with her. She has to work, yes, but tell her that you want to have breakfast with her before work, lunch with her and then spend your evenings with her.... At this point, you should understand whether you like her or not and she should know whether she has any chemistry for you. If you do like her and think that she might be the One, then do as Chivo says and tell her straight out. If it doesn't work out you can meet new women until you leave Russia. You can always perfect your "game" in Silicon Valley

I’ve just had such bad experiences with that frame before.  I suggested that last night, and her frame was like, “relationships just happen at their own natural pace and can’t be rushed.”  My own experience that is that I’ve never had the frame “I’m so into you and I want to spend all of my time with you” move the relationship forward at an early stage like this.  To me, it smells too much like the frame “I worship the ground you walk on” which is never the right frame for handling a woman in any circumstances.

C'mon fellas...whatever happened to "if a Russian woman likes you..." talk?    They've been out 4 dates and TBB did in fact tried to kiss her.

Dunno maybe I'm missing something here...waaaaay toooo many women to split pea with one, IMO. The problem could be that were not seeing here is TBB subconsciously acts like a cuddly pup around her and she senses this and is starting to regard him somewhere between disposable to annoying. She needs a couple more dates to determine exactly which. All the Alpha-talk is maybe starting to slip through the cracks.

One of the things about life is as you get better at something you get the opportunity to participate in a higher league.  This applies to anything: universities, careers, sports, etc.  And it definitely applies to girls.  As you climb each level, the playing field gets more complicated and the competition more fierce.  What worked at level  one will be counterproductive at level three.  I can sense that I’m making some mistakes where I am, but I’m often not sure what the right action is.

Different women have different behaviors. Some women will pursue a guy more aggressively (hence the "if a Russian woman likes you bla-bla-bla), while others will not be as forward. IMHO, at some point a guy has to stop and decide if one woman that he has met is worth pursuing. If yes, then, it never hurts to be honest as opposed to these macho Alpha male games. She hasn't insisted that he spend lavishly on her, she clearly is not desperate, and if he likes her, then he may have to take the risk of actually telling her.

I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it.  Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules.  What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.

Anna is clearly waiting for some meaningful words and not getting them.  TwoBit, you are a bit too busy playing your frame-game; showing off and trying to impress her and essentially force her to make the next step.  Instead, you should open your mind and listen, understand, formulate what is it that you really like about her (except that she's hot) - and then TELL HER as much.  Otherwise, she'll realize soon enough that you are just a shallow womanizer and not really into her that much, except for the physical attraction.  You won't get very far with attempts to kiss her.

Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame.  With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty.  Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty.  I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.

[Boethius]

Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame.  With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty.  Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty.  I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.

Did you say that as part of your "game", or is this expressing who you are?

[Jooky]

I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it.  Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules.  What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.

I'd say, don't even worry about that at all. She's available to you on a Friday night in July and probably on Saturday too. She's not getting that much attention, or if she is, she's putting it aside for you.

[Daveman]

...
I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it.  Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules.  What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.
...
Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame.  With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty.  Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty.  I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.

Well this method has never failed for me anywhere in the world with any woman 6-10+.

Sit down and write a poem.. not some overly romantic crap, but something short, sweet -- something about her eyes, her lips, and your time together.. really impress her and write it in Russian.

On your next date with her, meet her with two dozen roses, 23 for her and the other for your pocket.  Giver her the roses first and them blow her away with the poem (don't read it to her, just hand it over as the surprise/feelings of the roses builds to maximum).  She'll either be beaming with delight to carry them around while you walk together, or she'll be standoffish because it's overt and people are watching.  If it's the former, then when you get to a secluded area, move your mouth to within an inch the edge of hers, and hold the position, and if she turns her head in to you this time, cool, if she turns her head away, follow her mouth with yours, brushing the edge with your lips... keeping the brushing touch and don't back off unless she creates a truly nasty scene...  then take her.

If she doesn't respond favorably to that, your frame with this one is in serious trouble. IMO only of course, and I freely admit to having little to no game with the ladies.  

[Seeker]

Well this method has never failed for me anywhere in the world with any woman 6-10+.

Sit down and write a poem.. not some overly romantic crap, but something short, sweet -- something about her eyes, her lips, and your time together.. really impress her and write it in Russian.

On your next date with her, meet her with two dozen roses, 23 for her and the other for your pocket.  Giver her the roses first and them blow her away with the poem (don't read it to her, just hand it over as the surprise/feelings of the roses builds to maximum).  She'll either be beaming with delight to carry them around while you walk together, or she'll be standoffish because it's overt and people are watching.  If it's the former, then when you get to a secluded area, move your mouth to within an inch the edge of hers, and hold the position, and if she turns her head in to you this time, cool, if she turns her head away, follow her mouth with yours, brushing the edge with your lips... keeping the brushing touch and don't back off unless she creates a truly nasty scene...  then take her.

If she doesn't respond favorably to that, your frame with this one is in serious trouble. IMO only of course, and I freely admit to having little to no game with the ladies. 

Damn dude.  Are you available for a date?  I am so h..... now.

 

[brad5959]

you say she knows she is hot, and you refuse to compliment her on her beauty.  you are stuck on playing games with her as if you are back in the USA dating an AW.  she even asks you why you don't mention it.  she gives you a golden opportunity.  she wants to hear it from YOU.  instead you insult her and say that beauty is transient!!  sad.  she really wants some sincere compliments from you.  you are too much of a control freak to give in to this girl.

[brad5959]

TBB, you should ask yourself the question which this song is asking...

[TwoBitBandit]

Some of the posts in this thread have just been rude potshots.  You may not agree with the path I’ve chosen, or the decisions I make, or what I do.  You may hope that I’m successful for this or you may not.  You may think I’m a great guy or you may think I’m a prick.

I’m doing something different than most of the seekers here: I’m fishing in the ocean rather than in the pond of MOB.  And, I want to demonstrate that it’s possible to completely detach yourself from that world, and take a bigger dive into FSU culture.  I realize that MOB is still pretty big in Ukraine, but it’s dying a very slow death in Russia.  There’s a much bigger world out there if you’re willing to swim in it.

My intent in writing a trip report is to help the community.  When I first started this path, RWG (the big board at the time) was immensely useful.  I learned a lot by reading posts, and especially by reading trip reports.  I hope that perhaps my trip report will help others who, like me, were just tired and disgusted by the world of MOB and all the agencies.  I’m not trying to say that my method is perfect.  There’s nothing to prevent a nub from, say, writing a bunch of girls on mamba with the help of interpreters and then going on a visit-one trip.  He may have a totally different experience than he would have had with the agency girls of MOB.  Perhaps someone will read what I did and it will cause the gears in their head to slowly turn.  Perhaps my writing will inspire him to learn Russian, and when he meets a woman in the FSU she'll think it's really cute and that make him more attractive.  Perhaps he'll write a profile and meet his future wife on mamba.ru.  Who knows what can happen?

I’ve tried to be open in this trip report, both of terms of what I’ve done and also explaining why I did it,  in the spirit of making it useful.  I agree that some of the opinions and methods I’ve advanced are controversial, but so what?  Is anyone seriously being hurt?  Olesia came all the way from Kemerovo to meet me and we didn’t have much chemistry.  And I felt bad that she spent nine hours on the bus that day.  But was she seriously hurt?  I spent way more hours than that getting to Novosibirsk from San Francisco.  She’s probably at the movies with her girlfriends right now.  I’m on vacation, and I’m doing what I want to do.  If I find a relationship, then great.  If I don’t, then great.  I’m enjoying the process.  And I’m having some sadness, some excitement, some grief, some laughter.  It is the stuff of life!

I’d like to digress.  I had a girlfriend a long time ago.  We met in high school, and continued our relationship for while attending the university, even though we ended up in different universities.  I would have done anything for this young woman.  I gave her flowers, I wrote thirty-page love letters.  I called her just to say “I love you.”  I dreamed of our future together.  I thought about her all the time.  She was a source of inspiration.  I'd call her and sing to her on the phone.

So, when she dumped me when I was in my early twenties, I was shocked and hurt.  During my whole tenure attending the university, I received exactly one grade lower than a B.  It was in the summer school class I was taking when that happened.  It was in linear algebra, and the grade I received was an F.  And the reason I got an F was that you don’t learn how solve Eigenvectors when you’re lying in your bed depressed for eighteen hours a day.  Prior to that I was this professor’s star student: I was the one who always raised my hand and answered his question.  He’d always say, “Someone besides TwoBit please answer this question” during class.  He started calling me at home, knowing that something was wrong.  It didn’t matter, I didn’t care.

I didn’t talk to her for a long time, but she started contacting me a few years ago.  This young girl is older.  She’s had a rough life.  She’s been in the hospital for a few times from being beat up.  The man she’s married to now… well let’s just say he’s not a great guy, but she’s decided to stay married for the benefit of her children.  She sends me emails all the time.  Sometimes I reply, sometimes I don’t.  She sends me cathartic letters.  She has sent me flowers at work.

While she was in California three years ago she came to visit.  I took her to Monterey and some of my other favorite local places.  She saw what had happened to me: I was making bank in Silicon Valley, driving a Porsche, was living a great life and traveling all over the world.  I had a hundred times more confidence than I had before.  When I took her to the airport to see her off, she wouldn’t let go of me.  She just couldn’t stop crying.  I almost had to push her through the security gates.  The TSA people were like “mam, are you ok?" as they helped her through security.  And as I saw her off, I just realized what a human train wreck the situation was, and I wished it could have worked out just a little bit differently.

So, I was surprised to see a comment like this from someone who has never met me personally and with no context of my perspective and life experience suggesting that I could learn to love from a youtube video.

TBB, you should ask yourself the question which this song is asking...

Well, the answer is yes, I’ve really loved a woman.  And Brad, you’re an аsshole.  And I mean that.

[Gator]

TwoBit,

I do not recall any prior Trip Report written in such a frank, forthright manner.  It is truly refreshing, besides being interesting. 

When communicating with us RWDers, you place everything on the table.  I presume this is your true persona.  However, when interacting with RW you are different.  There comes a time with any woman when you need to go “all in” in the manner that BluesFairy suggested. 

You are an analytical thinker as evidenced by your writing, your university grades in technical subjects, etc.   Most women are intuitive thinkers, yet this Anna is a little reserved, and she too could have some analytical traits.  What did she study at the university?

If analytical, the two of you would be compatible in a very important way.  Analytical thinkers respond well with information, so give her some information:  what you are feeling and thinking about her, and then make your move. 

I agree your "move" should not be like a RM even though that is how Anna was trained.  First, this is not you, and second, smart girls like men who are different.  Yet, you got to make a move stronger than leaning in for a goodnight kiss.

[Gator]

Some more Monday morning Quarterbacking:

Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty.  I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.

What you said is excellent, yet you forgot something very important.  Before saying that, tell her:

"You are remarkably beautiful. 

This moment as I stand in front of you, looking into your eyes and seeing your hair, face, lips, I feel truly that you are the most beautiful woman in the world. 

To wake up each morning and see you would be heaven on earth.  To sit down and enjoy dinner with you would be heaven on earth.  To decorate a Christmas tree with you would be heaven on earth.  To watch you hold our baby…….

You are so beautiful that it distracts me from what I need to do.  I am looking for someone with those inner qualities important for a happy life together.  So I try to ignore your beauty as I move past it to your inner beauty.  It is impossible, yet I try by not mentioning how incredibly beautiful you really are."

[Gator]

When I took her to the airport to see her off, she wouldn’t let go of me.  She just couldn’t stop crying.  I almost had to push her through the security gates.  The TSA people were like “mam, are you ok?" as they helped her through security.  And as I saw her off, I just realized what a human train wreck the situation was, and I wished it could have worked out just a little bit differently.

Never, never, never tell that story to a RW.  It makes you sound like an absolutely heartless bastard. 

[Daveman]

TBB,

Yeah, there are some potshots in the thread.  There's also considerable thread drift onto tangents.  I think you were aware that there would be some of that when you began posting. I echo's Gator's thoughts that this is one of the most honest, open, helpful, and better TR's I've read in quite a long time.

I think if you take the comments into perspective, you'll see that most are indeed attempting to help you by offering some alternative ideas, giving you food for thought, sharing what has worked for them in similar situations, etc...

Just avoid allowing yourself to become embroiled in debates over inconsequential details or criticism and focus on the top priority of making the most of your trip, your way.  Take whatever could help and discard everything else for the moment.  

[Blues Fairy]

Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame.  With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty.  Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty.  I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.

So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions.  Defensive behavior as is.  She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind.  She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations.  Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me. 

P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point. 

[SFandEE]

TBB,

I echo's Gator's thoughts that this is one of the most honest, open, helpful, and better TR's I've read in quite a long time.

I think if you take the comments into perspective, you'll see that most are indeed attempting to help you by offering some alternative ideas, giving you food for thought, sharing what has worked for them in similar situations, etc...

Just avoid allowing yourself to become embroiled in debates over inconsequential details or criticism and focus on the top priority of making the most of your trip, your way.  Take whatever could help and discard everything else for the moment.  

I agree--Gator and Daveman have been the most supportive of your writing. 

[Daveman]

So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions.  Defensive behavior as is.  She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind.  She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations.  Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me. 

P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point. 

Absolutely agree with this.

IMO, she wants to feel something with you... she wants to feel something within you... she wants to feel something from you... she wants to feel something within herself... it's all about what she feels at this point... she wouldn't be with you if she were not interested (so if game is about attraction, you have that).  Let her feel a little more passion from you about her...  make/let her feel like a woman, and just as important, is to let her see YOU as the man who makes her feel like a woman.

All this game/frame stuff is cool, and a great discussion... but if you really want to captivate this woman, you have to make her feel...

You're going to continue having the same date with her unless you tap into that wellspring of her emotions and unleash the passion.

[Daveman]

Some more Monday morning Quarterbacking:

What you said is excellent, yet you forgot something very important.  Before saying that, tell her:

"You are remarkably beautiful. 

This moment as I stand in front of you, looking into your eyes and seeing your hair, face, lips, I feel truly that you are the most beautiful woman in the world. 

To wake up each morning and see you would be heaven on earth.  To sit down and enjoy dinner with you would be heaven on earth.  To decorate a Christmas tree with you would be heaven on earth.  To watch you hold our baby…….

You are so beautiful that it distracts me from what I need to do.  I am looking for someone with those inner qualities important for a happy life together.  So I try to ignore your beauty as I move past it to your inner beauty.  It is impossible, yet I try by not mentioning how incredibly beautiful you really are."

BANG, now there's how to let a woman feel something incredible and still hold the frame.

[brad5959]

TBB said:
So, I was surprised to see a comment like this from someone who has never met me personally and with no context of my perspective and life experience suggesting that I could learn to love from a youtube video.

Well, the answer is yes, I’ve really loved a woman.  And Brad, you’re an аsshole.  And I mean that.

[/quote]

Brad said:
I did not say you could learn to love from a youtube video.  I said you should ask yourself the question which the video is asking.  big difference.

I can see plenty of context of your perspective and life experience by reading your very indepth analysis and your desire to be a complete control freak.  the only thing I offered you was constructive criticism, and I wished you good luck in your endeavor.  you respond with a personal attack. as to never meeting you, I would look forward to that.  I wonder if your willingness to harshly insult would be forthcoming at that point.
  

[tim 360]

First TBB thanks for posting your brutally honest trip report and accepting the variety of responses,  many would have withered and run away and I commend you for hanging in there.  

Second,  you seem to have a thing for Anna, but have not made it to first base despite 4 dates.  Clearly she is controlling the "frame" without her trying to analyze it as you do.  I doubt she would waste her time seeing you if she was not interested in you and I think she is waiting for you to make your seduction move--after letting her know how very interested in her you are.  A litttle sweetalk without the noodles.  Without the gaming.  Women can pick-up on many different things and I would not be surprised she "feels" the framing and gaming approach.

Don't frame it.  Don't over-think it.  Just do it, within the first 10 minutes of your next date, don't wait 'til the end.  If it doesn't work on your 5th date???  my 2 kopeks.

[TwoBitBandit]

Yeah, there are some potshots in the thread.  There's also considerable thread drift onto tangents.  I think you were aware that there would be some of that when you began posting. I echo's Gator's thoughts that this is one of the most honest, open, helpful, and better TR's I've read in quite a long time.

I think if you take the comments into perspective, you'll see that most are indeed attempting to help you by offering some alternative ideas, giving you food for thought, sharing what has worked for them in similar situations, etc...

There's constructive criticism and there's just plain nastiness.  I agree that most of the feedback has been of the former.  I really have no objection to anyone suggesting that I go caveman on Anna or that I should tell her that she's the most beautiful thing since the Sistine Chapel or that I'm being too rigid.  There's really only two or three posters that are just being pointlessly antagonistic.  I'm always of in support of appropriately framed criticism and intellectual honesty.