Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Misha]

Misha, let me ask you again do you understand that there are other reasons why some women want to marry? No need to talk about stats (especially 10 y.o.)  because stats don't mention the reasons.

Olga, honestly, I don't know what point you are trying to make. All the women that I met wanted to marry as they wanted a husband and a family (children). Now, please tell me, what are these reasons that you hint at in your post 

[OlgaH]

Now, please tell me, what are these reasons that you hint at in your post 

Some women marry just solely of financial reason, some women marry because of their stupidity, in the light of international dating some women marry just to get out of their country 

Do you know that Muscovite men usually don't marry women from other Russian regions but Muscovite women willingly go for sham marriage with gastarbeiters? Do you know why?

Below you can read offers on sham marriages 115 pages.
http://www.kosmopolit.ru/marriage/ 

[Misha]

Some women marry just solely of financial reason, some women marry because of their stupidity, in the light of international dating some women marry just to get out of their country 

Once again, I was dating women who were not looking for foreigners, who were not listed in agencies targeting foreigners, so the women I met were not seeking marriage just to get out of their country. Neither did I encounter women marrying solely for money. The women I met were looking to marry for that quaint notion of love and marriage to a good man  Sure, the other women certainly existed, but I did not really meet any such women.

Do you know that Muscovite men usually don't marry women from other Russian regions but Muscovite women willingly go for sham marriage with gastarbeiters? Do you know why?

Then again, many of these women will marry the "gastarbeiters" for other reasons: they are good men, who do not drink and work hard 

[OlgaH]

The women I met were looking to marry for that quaint notion of love and marriage to a good man  

Misha it is really doesn't matter what women your have met because you know not all the women will disclose you their true intention  

Sure, the other women certainly existed, but I did not really meet any such women.

Yes, Misha,  Russia is a country of Saints 

[Misha]

Misha it is really doesn't matter what women your have met because you know not all the women will disclose you their true intention  

So, Olga, tell us what your true intentions were when you married  :evil:

Yes, Misha,  Russia is a country of Saints 

No, but it is neither a country of sinners either  There are some bad apples, but in my experience, the overwhelming majority of Russians are decent folk.

[GQBlues]

You are a supernatural, and unconcious concious.  you claim to be ugly, but be honest are you big and rugged like a rugby player??  women are attracted to that, and your natural ease around women seals the deal.

Rats! Brad, please hold that visual!  I kind'a like it. It's the only chance I have to be bigger than life even if it's only in someone else's imagination.   

A very silent thank you to Boethius. Though I will say I've pushed the proverbial envelope far too many times and wish some things can be undone. C'est la vie...

...If the ‘yourself’ you are is able to catch women you’re happy with, then great.  If not, then you need to transform the ‘yourself’ into a better ‘yourself,” in which case “be yourself” isn’t helpful advice...

I would think someone who recognizes, aspire AND act upon to better oneself is what truly defines the person. No?!?

But anyway, the fact you authored a very popular and worthy thread, would you like to share some final thoughts about your trip with everyone?

[Jooky]

You are a supernatural, and unconcious concious.  you claim to be ugly, but be honest are you big and rugged like a rugby player??

Naw, he's ugly. 

[chivo]

That's just it. I never had any pre-conceived, pre-planned, pre-structured disposition, tactics, etc...with any of the women I socially ran across with before. I never subscribed, read, researched, learned any dating 101 tips from anyone or anywhere. I would think that simply confine your instincts and would likely shape you into something you're not instinctively equipped and capable to carry on through. My hormones were enough to drive my education and motivation.

I don't subscribe there's a different set of rules dating in Russia as they do anywhere else. These sisters may speak different languages but they send out the exact same signals.

So be honest with them, with your intention, and stay within yourself and who you are. Dating is, and always be far easier that way. Find your balance.

I think you're confusing dating with mentality. Apples and oranges IMO. You're right dating isn't much different here, but the mentality inside the person you're dating is.

People are basically the same I have no doubt about this. But it would be foolish not to assume that human beings don't have natural social tendencies and have particular human social behaviours learned in a social environment and through social interaction. Societies exist in complex social environments unique unto themselves, and people adapt themselves to these environments.

While I'm sure you can walk into a bar full of supermodels and have them fighting over you in minutes, try doing this in Khartoum, Damascus or the Shaanxi Province in China. I hope we can agree that a person from these areas think quite differently and have different norms than a girl in Chatsworth 

So yes Russians are a unique breed in that respect, just like the Japanese, Africans, Arabs, Latins, etc. And its not just the women, its the men also. Now I would say Russians more closely resemble Americans than the Sudanese for example, but I hope you get my drift.

I would also say that over time, should you bring a PERSON from another country to live in your country that they will adapt in various degrees and the subtle/not so subtle differences will become even less noticeable. Just like I have adapted here. I am not the same person I was before I arrived, basically yes, but culturally and mentality I have shifted because of my environment.

I will contend that if you treat (not date) a women here like you do in America, you will have much less success on average than if you understand the culture better and the mentality that goes with it and act accordingly. Doesn't mean that you can't be successful otherwise, just talking about increasing your odds.

Now of course you're a different story as I'm sure you can charm the suit off a gorilla no matter what language she speaks .

[chivo]

Naw, he's ugly. 

Hey Jooky. You remember that conversation we had regarding the differences in AW and RW the last time you were in Moscow and what I mention as one of the differences? I'm biting my tongue here 

[Jooky]

The best dating advice I got came from guys I know who sucked with girls in high school and got much better, because they all made the same Classic Dating Mistakes.  I didn't learn much from guys who had ten belt notches at age fifteen: they'd just say things like “be confident.”

Really interesting comment. From what I know all the current pick up masters teaching their 'game' sucked at dating. They learned by observing guys like GQ, who probably wouldn't have been able to teach them what they were doing, extracting the science from the art.

I think what GQ doesn't see is that what is universal is how he attracts women. Because it comes naturally for him, he doesn't notice the differences that other guys deal with. It's just not part of his world.

In my personal experiences, I don't do anything in Russia that I wouldn't do in the US, but I do see differences in dating ease, approaches, goals and mentality.

For example, in Cali, I see a lot of guys succeeding with the aloof and disinterested or 'being a dick' game. In Russia, I don't see this much and I don't think it would work so well. In Russia I've seen guys succeed by being aggressive in ways that would be considered harassment in the US. There's a lot more, but I'm keeping it brief.

I'm more like Dave. I don't give a sh* and just try to enjoy myself. I'm no stud, but I do well enough. I know I could step up my 'game' and with a bit of effort I'd attract a lot more women... but... they wouldn't be the type of women that I'm naturally compatible with.

Dave said it best:

Generating attraction as discussed in this thread is 50% art and 50% science.  It's cool and all, but there are a hell of a lot of women (or people in general) that I really don't want to attract (even if they're HOT).  Being completely true to yourself kinda weeds many of those out automatically. Cool deal, less work and less thought.

Some years ago I spammed about a hundred women on bride.ru. My intro went against probably everything guys would recommend here. It didn't say anything about my work, my education, my stats, my goals. No facts, but it was 100% me. I knew that intro would turn away a lot of prospects, but it would also catch the attention of the type of girls that could click with me. It worked.

TwoBit, I guess you'll keep in contact and see how things progress. At first I thought you might have blown it with Anna, but on second thought she was playing too many games with you, and maybe you're still uncomfortable around a girl like her and she could feel it. I think you're better off finding that women that you're comfortable with and skip the 'push and pull' games that Anna was playing with you.

[Jooky]

Hey Jooky. You remember that conversation we had regarding the differences in AW and RW the last time you were in Moscow and what I mention as one of the differences?

I'm not sayin' nothin'.  :noidea: 

[Brianinaz]

TBB, nice TR I've enjoyed reading it.

Once again I'm reminded that there are very few generalities and while not every ones experience is completely different there are very few things that you can say "this is categorically the way it is, end of story". For instance I've heard many people say something like "if after 3 dates she's not all over you she's not into you" or some variation on that. I would think to myself masn these guys must be really good or I'm going to the wrong places and meeting the wrong women because that's not my experience. I would think "hey guys take me along with you next time ok?". And this stuff about a body of literature with defined dating techniques and it’s own lingo (I still don’t think I understand what a frame is and I know I couldn’t tell you if an interaction was in my frame or someone else’s.) is great. I feel stupid. Imagine the fun I could have had over the years if I had any idea what I was doing. I just went along “being myself” and re-inventing the wheel. I mean it makes sense to approach it as you would anything else. If you’re not naturally gifted in some area you learn about it and work on it. It’s something that’s obvious in academics; there are a few people out there that are just scary brilliant and then there’s the rest of us that have to work really hard to get the same result.
 
Anyway Bill  I will chime in with the poster above who wrote about a woman wanting, I might go so far as to say needing, to feel special. RW, AW I don’t think it matters. I have had 2 relationships with UW one lasted about 2 years and the other is with Mrs. Brianinaz. My trips have been a combination of VO and VM. I’ve made more VO trips than VM but, the VO trips were to see the 2 ladies I met on VM trips. It was something like 4-5 VM and 12-15 VO. Anyway the point I’d like to make here is with the 2 relationships I’ve had I didn’t get more than a peck on the cheek from either of them on that first VM trip. As a matter of fact now that I think about it I don’t think Mrs. Brianinaz even gave up a peck on the cheek that first trip. It wasn’t until they knew (that I made them feel) they were special that any kind of relationship physical or otherwise began to form. As far as the 2 women you found an interest in, well you met them, you’ll have to figure out how you really feel, and what you really want. I’m no dating guru but IMHO if you figure that out one of them is for you then that’s the time to take the lead. That’s where there will be a difference in AW and RW. If you decide that one of these ladies is the one for you, then you tell her what you want, tell you’re coming back just to see her and you want blab la bla. Not I really like you and was thinking about coming back what do you think….. .  Just I’m coming for you. That will begin to make her feel special. If she’s interested you won’t need a PhD to figure it out.

And on the feeling special thing; it’s not a one time thing, after 1, 5, 10 years of marriage you better still be making her feel she’s special or odds are someone else will. Good luck and great TR

[TwoBitBandit]

But anyway, the fact you authored a very popular and worthy thread, would you like to share some final thoughts about your trip with everyone?

Yeah, I will... but not tonight... I spent tonight's intellectual effort writing to the actual girls...  

For example, in Cali, I see a lot of guys succeeding with the aloof and disinterested or 'being a dick' game. In Russia, I don't see this much and I don't think it would work so well. In Russia I've seen guys succeed by being aggressive in ways that would be considered harassment in the US. There's a lot more, but I'm keeping it brief.

That's funny, because I've seen the same exact thing.  I've seen some Russian guys running some hardcore caveman game and thinking, "Can't that get you arrested?"  Apparently, it's all good clean fun in Russia!

I also agree that the 'being a dick' game is effective in Silicon Valley.  I never wanted to be such a dick to women: it's just not in my nature.  I've just learned to do what's necessary.  I've become much more of an аsshole than I ever wanted to be.

TwoBit, I guess you'll keep in contact and see how things progress. At first I thought you might have blown it with Anna, but on second thought she was playing too many games with you, and maybe you're still uncomfortable around a girl like her and she could feel it. I think you're better off finding that women that you're comfortable with and skip the 'push and pull' games that Anna was playing with you.

In all fairness to Anna, I was playing enough games with her to justify her behavior by dating multiple girls and being mysterious.  She may actually be a serious girl and she's just reacting to my behavior.

In writing her, I just want to reset the context and start a more honest and straightforward dialog.  She'll either come and join me in that context, or she won't.  We'll see.

I have to figure out the different between мат and мать and лож and ложь through context, and can't pronounce the difference at all.

OK, "мат and мать" is understandable but we don't have such word as "лож" and we pronounce "ложь" as [лош].  

Well, I just can't let a perfectly good debate on Russian grammar go past me.  I occasionally translate Russian articles and stories as homework assignments.  One of the articles I translated was "In Defense of Scrooge," (http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=573) which I later regretted due to its complex bookish style of English usage.  It was a difficult text to translate.  One of the sentences in it was "The biggest of the Big Lies about Scrooge is the pointlessness of his pursuit of money." which I translated as "Самая большая из больших лож о Скрудже --  бессмысленность его преследования денег."  My teacher argued that the word for lie, ложа, wasn't used in Russian in the plural.  I found two contradictory texts.  I have a specialized dictionary that shows irregular forms of the genitive plural, which is useful since the genitive plural is the most irregular form.  This dictionary also implied that that the word ложа wasn't used in the plural.  Yet, another online reference source I use noted that лож was the correct genitive plural for this word.  In addition, my teacher's Russian dictionary, which normally contains a notation for words that are only used in the singular didn't use this notation for the word ложа.  Since two out of three reference sources supported my translation, I eventually got her to concede that my translation is at least defensible.

So, following that logic, I contend that the issue of hearing and pronouncing the difference between лож and ложь is an issue of some merit.  

[Aloe]

Well, I just can't let a perfectly good debate on Russian grammar go past me.  I occasionally translate Russian articles and stories as homework assignments.  One of the articles I translated was "In Defense of Scrooge," (http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=573) which I later regretted due to its complex bookish style of English usage.  It was a difficult text to translate.  One of the sentences in it was "The biggest of the Big Lies about Scrooge is the pointlessness of his pursuit of money." which I translated as "Самая большая из больших лож о Скрудже --  бессмысленность его преследования денег."  My teacher argued that the word for lie, ложа, wasn't used in Russian in the plural.  I found two contradictory texts.  I have a specialized dictionary that shows irregular forms of the genitive plural, which is useful since the genitive plural is the most irregular form.  This dictionary also implied that that the word ложа wasn't used in the plural.  Yet, another online reference source I use noted that лож was the correct genitive plural for this word.  In addition, my teacher's Russian dictionary, which normally contains a notation for words that are only used in the singular didn't use this notation for the word ложа.  Since two out of three reference sources supported my translation, I eventually got her to concede that my translation is at least defensible.

So, following that logic, I contend that the issue of hearing and pronouncing the difference between лож and ложь is an issue of some merit.  

Im confused, why are you using word ложа at all in that sentence?

Ложа

ЛО'ЖА, и, ж. [фр. loge].
1. Место в зрительном зале или собрании, отделенное для нескольких лиц. Литерная л. Дипломатическая л. (напр. в парламенте). 2. Отделение масонской организации (истор.). 3. То же, что ложе в 3 знач. (спец. устар.). Деревенский, видно, плотничек строил ложу — тяп да ляп! Нкрсв.

lie is ложь, not ложа


     существует ли мн. число слов "ложь" и "чистота"?
    Новикова Елена Вячеславовна

Ответ справочной службы русского языка

    Грамматически форма множественного числа возможна, но данные слова -- абстрактные существительные, а такие слова употребляются, как правило, только в ед. числе.

[Aloe]

"The biggest of the Big Lies about Scrooge is the pointlessness of his pursuit of money."
Самая большая ложь из всех о Скрудже - это бессмысленность его погони за деньгами

[Aloe]

Yeah, I will... but not tonight... I spent tonight's intellectual effort writing to the actual girls...  

That's funny, because I've seen the same exact thing.  I've seen some Russian guys running some hardcore caveman game and thinking, "Can't that get you arrested?"  Apparently, it's all good clean fun in Russia!

Very interesting, what do you mean above by caveman game and harrassment behavior?

[Aloe]

3. Women still face discrimination in the workforce and their abilities to move up are still hindered.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/151362/RP-employs-most-number-of-women-in-senior-management-positions

MANILA, Philippines -  The Philippines currently employs the most number of women in senior management positions in privately-held companies, a survey said.

Forty seven percent of senior corporate positions in the Philippines are occupied by women, way above the 24 percent global average, a poll conducted by accountancy and advisory firm Grant Thornton International.

Russia secured the second spot at 42 percent, followed by by Thailand at 38 percent, Poland at 32 percent, and mainland China with 31 percent, said the survey which covered 7,200 privately held businesses (PHBs) in 36 economies.

Meanwhile, nations that have the least number of females in top management positions are Japan at 7 percent, Belgium at 12 percent, Denmark at 13 percent, India and Netherlands at 15 percent each.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womenceo1.html

But although women make up over half of America's labor force, as of 2009, only 12 Fortune 500  companies and 25 Fortune 1000 companies have women CEOs or presidents.
 

[Aloe]

Here is something on pronunciation:

Если буква ь написана в середине слова между согласными бук-
         вами (кольцо, письмо) или на конце слова после согласной буквы (обо-
         значают согласные звуки, образующие пары по твердости / мягко-
         сти: гусь, лось, день, уголь ), то она обозначает мягкость согласных
         звуков ( т.е. то, что предшествующую согласную букву необходимо
         произносить как мягкий согласный звук; иными словами - предше-
         ствующая согласная буква обозначает мягкий согласный звук ). Ср.
         написание и произношение слов кольцо ( [ кал’цо ]; письмо ( [ п’ис’-
         мо]). Обратите внимание на случаи типа друзья, колосья. В них буква
         ь обозначает не только мягкость согласного, но и сигнализирует о
         звуке [ й ]; [ друз’йа ], [ калос’йа ].
                На конце слова буква ь может служить не только для обо-
         значения мягкости согласного ( ср. день, гусь, уголь и в транскрип-
         ции [ д’эн’ ], [ гус’ ], [ угал’ ] ), но и быть показателем определенной
         грамматической формы - 2 л. ед.ч. глаголов ( ср. написание идёшь,
         летишь, знаешь и произношение [ ид’ош ], [ л’ит’иш ], [знайиш ] - на
         конце произносится твердый согласный звук [ ш ] ); имена существи-
         тельные Им. и В. п. ед.ч. третьего склонения женского рода (ср. на-
         писание ложь, мышь, рожь и произношение [ лош ], [ мыш ], [ рош ],
         с одной стороны, и, с другой стороны, написание нож, ковш, сто-
         рож и произношение [нош ],[ кофш ], [ стораш ] у существительных
         второго склонения мужского рода )

from here http://window.edu.ru/window_catalog/pdf2txt?p_id=5380&p_page=6

[pitbull]

The cost of making bad choices is small because the legal and tax systems are biased in favor of transferring wealth from productive men to single mothers, and thirtysomething men will still consider them viable mates in their early and mid thirities.

In Russia this simply isn’t the case: the cost for picking the wrong man is huge.  The life of a single mother is hell, and the state doesn’t do much of anything to help them. 

TBB,

The life of a single mother is not a piece of cake in the US either. Unless a single mother is a "generational welfare type" that keeps popping out babies every year, it is VERY hard to be a single mother both in the US and Russia.

[OlgaH]

So, Olga, tell us what your true intentions were when you married  :evil:

Misha, I will not spoil your enjoyment of guessing and leave it to you 

There are some bad apples,

I'm glad you learned something new about "marriage minded bad apples" 

but in my experience, the overwhelming majority of Russians are decent folk.

of course 

[Makkin]

Hi,


  It's hard to be a mother period anywhere right? Being a single mother is very difficult but like myself for 12 years I was a single father and had my sister and mother helped me while I worked. There were times when my daughter came to work with me and some really wonderful women helped me take care of her through the work day. Women are a source of greatness when children are involved and men like myself are also very good at what matters in a childs life.

  Terrible mothers exist everywhere as do terrible fathers right?


  I would never judge a single mother or single father until I had the same experience as them. Sometimes it takes everything you have in your strength and faith to bring a child up in the world and those that do this are in my opinion the best people around regardless of the situations that may exist.

 

[GQBlues]

Really interesting comment. From what I know all the current pick up masters teaching their 'game' sucked at dating. They learned by observing guys like GQ, who probably wouldn't have been able to teach them what they were doing, extracting the science from the art.

I think what GQ doesn't see is that what is universal is how he attracts women. Because it comes naturally for him, he doesn't notice the differences that other guys deal with. It's just not part of his world.

Your point is valid.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Gretzky, Ali, Jabbar, Jerry West, Iceman, Montana, Yogi, etc...legendary 'naturally talented' players of their games but ones who will never be 'structured' enough to make good coaches/teachers.

Phil Jackson, Auerbach, Riley, Madden, Landry, Brown, Popovich, the Wizard of Oz, Coach K, Dean Smith, etc...legendary coaches and teachers, but barely average players of their respective games.

As far as dating, I'm thinking....instead of learning from PUAs, sharks and shaggers alike, wouldn't it be easier, and would make a whole lot more sense, to learn and understand what makes a woman tick from women themselves?

Just a thought....as maybe I never gave it much thought either before, but now realizes my bros generally hung out with far more 'men' than they did females, which was totally opposite with me. The larger pool of friends I have are females. They seem to have far more interesting to say in general, especially things about dating. dunno.

chivo-

I hear you, man. Probably would have been far easier to make the point and just say 'Muslim' and 'Hindu' cultures. Definitely a radically different dating culture there I would think.

Speaking of being radically different, I would confess to experiencing dating girls, having GFs, at such an early age from another space and time where the boys stood on one side of the room and posed, while the girls stood on the opposite side and giggled. And all a guy had to look forward to, if he succeeded in getting a date from one of those girls, was be content in holding the opposite end of a handkerchief while the girl held the other as a form of 'holding hands'. For a short while, I did harnessed a few of those scented hankies...

Not sure if that made the 'radical radar' but I'm betting 'maybe'.

btw Chatsworth!?! Yikes! Chatsworth and the SF valley girls have long departed, shortly after Tom Petty and the Wednesday Cruise night along Van Nuys Bl disappeared. You've definitely been gone a while   

[Seeker]

As far as dating, I'm thinking....instead of learning from PUAs, sharks and shaggers alike, wouldn't it be easier, and would make a whole lot more sense, to learn and understand what makes a woman tick from women themselves?

...

btw Chatsworth!?! Yikes! Chatsworth and the SF valley girls have long departed, shortly after Tom Petty and the Wednesday Cruise night along Van Nuys Bl disappeared. You've definitely been gone a while   

I agree.  I want to date women, not men that think they know how to date women.  I have always thought it is good to go to the source for that type of information.

And Chatsworth GONE!!!!  Oh the loss (imagine tears running down my cheeks)... Those rocky hills have a lot of very cool places to take a girl you just met down in the park.  Sigh... at least I have the memories.

[Blues Fairy]

As far as dating, I'm thinking....instead of learning from PUAs, sharks and shaggers alike, wouldn't it be easier, and would make a whole lot more sense, to learn and understand what makes a woman tick from women themselves?

That would require some sincere interest in what women have to say about their wants or needs.  For TBB, it's not relevant.  His dating game is a one-man show; the ladies are but talking props.  If they support the show, they are deemed promising; if they are too independent, they are discarded.

[brad5959]

That would require some sincere interest in what women have to say about their wants or needs.  For TBB, it's not relevant.  His dating game is a one-man show; the ladies are but talking props.  If they support the show, they are deemed promising; if they are too independent, they are discarded.