Trip Reports General Discussion and Poll

[Boethius]

You are mistaken, Shadow.  Kindergartners are taught to play nice, take turns, and to say sorry.

[SMS60]

The flaming and chiding came with SeriouslyJaded and SMS60, neither of whom has ever written a trip report or disclosed much of anything about their experience with RW.   And now Lazarus in this thread has jumped in for reason I can not fathom.  RWD is not a political rally where hecklers are eventually ushered away, yet you should have told them to fock off.

Gator I take issue with your comments. You like to build strawmen not your normal demeonor. But thats for a diffirent thread.

I speak for myself not SJ or Lazarus

My first post in the tale was #78. I did not criticize or flame or chide the contents of the TR. I took issue with the "attitude" (haughty) of the OP. I asked questions of why and made a comment about it being the same MO as past reports. Also made a suggestion. Hopefully he would lighten up on attitude towards the people responding.

For some reason it set the OP off into a rant. ?????? and made some childish comments about me. It doesn't make sense. Sit back in your chair and think it through. It is bizzare!!

I responded with a short quip.

Maybe you need to correct your flaming and chiding remarks.

Im still intrigued about this mentality. I would still like to ask questions but it would most likely be a waste of bandwidth. Why the sensitivity about the responses? The responses contained very little about the actual TR.

[Ade]

Dan,

I'm not in the mood to argue further but the fact that you have projected something onto my personality because of (a very old and somewhat ironic) pseudonym I chose to use speaks volumes really and perhaps you're not the only one. Maybe I should have called myself "Happy Chappy" instead.

Oh, and FWIW, just because you can't see the logic in my statements doesn't make them any less logical. 


AJ,

have a nice day.


All,

I'm done with TR critiquing. There will be no more from me.

[SMS60]

Has anyone noticed the poll results?

[BC]

Too serious folks... Can't RWD simply be a place to relax and have fun?

[Shadow]

You are mistaken, Shadow.  Kindergartners are taught to play nice, take turns, and to say sorry.

You might be better informed, as I missed half due to being too busy learning and refusing to wear a red clowns nose... I only attended because of my girlfriend to be honest. 

[Lazarus]

so once folks are done 'huffing and puffing,' and throwing out their versions of Utopia style puffery, and need to sit back and 'catch their proverbial breath'. Then I'll continue.

I can only repeat what SMS60 stated before, about "control" and the "ego" being a hungry creature.
Translation: If the "puffery" doesn't stop, then the perceived punishment continues.

Laz

[ecr844]

I can only repeat what SMS60 stated before, about "control" and the "ego" being a hungry creature.
Translation: If the "puffery" doesn't stop, then the perceived punishment continues.

Laz

Nearly as hungry as projection, assumption, and the need to be a 'town crier'.

[Admin]

I can only repeat what SMS60 stated before, about "control" and the "ego" being a hungry creature.
Translation: If the "puffery" doesn't stop, then the perceived punishment continues.

Laz

You are free to completely ignore the "puffery" AND the "control" and then it will not matter to you.

Given the obvious upset this creates for you, ignoring it seems the most logical option.

- Dan

[Jumper]

AJ, since I'm the one who brought up the interplay of TR vs marriage, I will point out, I never stated this had anything to do with bluntness.  What I posted was that if a poster gets so upset at a TR interruption, which, in the grand scheme of life, is pretty minor, how will he deal with marriage?

B-
understood.
 I actually agree with your thoughts on some personality traits being a possible positive or negative
towards ones ability to manage a cross cultural relationship.
I also agree on some of SJ's points.

However, I do  not feel any of that is relevant to a TR's value, or it's  being disrupted.
(the cause if this thread)

To me, the quality or value of  a TR has almost nothing to do with
  whether the author is thin skinned ,or has a personality that would allow them an easy or difficult time with cross cultural relationships?
 

The TR itself is what is valuable .. complete. intact.
Sure the comments are equally valuable ,if they can be done in a constructive manner that doesn't disrupt the TR itself.

A pattern has emerged ,that anyone not *tough enough* ,or doesn't do everything well,by some given "standard",
  will be filleted to the point of not continuing.

We would not have this thread if it wasn't a problem.

Their experiences are no less valuable, and a good read ,than any other TR.

That is my point.
My whole stance on this issue is a feeling that  the TR section traditionally has had a different approach than other sections.

[Lazarus]

Nearly as hungry as projection, assumption, and the need to be a 'town crier'.

And I submit to you sir, that the ONLY one on this forum crying, sniveling and playing the "blame game" is you.

Laz

[vwrw]

SJ: “Remember that vwrw thinks it's absolutely normal for a twenty-something to want to be with a guy 35 years or more her senior, so her opinion for anything approaching normality is suspect from the get go.”

Gator: “I find this uncalled for.  It was rude, a personal attack, had no scholarly merit, and had nothing to do with the point being discussed, a point which never should have been raised by you so early because it was interruptive.”

SJ: “Rude? Uncalled for? You mean an absolutely true and valid statement? A person's credibility on any given subject is based on many things; the fact that vwrw is in a relationship with a huge age gap (30+ years) has a bearing on a lot of her views and people should know that. And their relationship and her attitude to men is very far from the norm. Now, perhaps you'd like to give me scholarly rebuttal to that?”

First, here is a scholarly rebuttal of your view that atypical people are not credible informants on what is normal or abnormal for a culture.

For anthropologists, it has been extremely important to find good informants, who would help them to interpret what they observe in a foreign culture. Therefore, they have devised a test, called the “cultural consensus model”, to help them to find accurate and trustworthy informants. To anthropologists’ surprise, many of their best informants, who provide the answers and interpretations that closely match the cultural consensus, appear to be atypical people in their culture. Here is a quote from my anthropology textbook “It may seem paradoxical but the most knowledgeable and helpful individuals (in the sense that they provide trustworthy info) are not necessarily “typical” individual. Many anthropologists have pointed out that key informants are likely to be somewhat marginal in their culture”.

As you can see SJ, your assumption that atypical people are not credible is disproved by the scientific findings.          

SJ, how can you know what I think  when you are even incapable of comprehending what I say. In response to your post, I told you that my conception of what is normal for 20+ girls differs from what you say it is. In general, I told you your statement was false and invalid one; yet, you come here again and insist that you know better than me what I am thinking. Why do you do this? Why do you need to ascribe to me beliefs which I do NOT hold?    

[Lazarus]

You are free to completely ignore the "puffery" AND the "control" and then it will not matter to you.
Given the obvious upset this creates for you, ignoring it seems the most logical option.
- Dan

It is truly a sad day Dan when the Admin feels the necessity to "protect" and come to the aid of the perceived "weak" and "defenseless". 
I truly hope the Mod's do not continue in this way and try to "crack the whip" on other posters as well.
IMHO, I believe that it would truly be a BIG mistake for the future growth of RWD.
And actually Dan, I am not really that "upset" with this @#%*&#%, but I am annoyed with the "head games" that he tries to play here.


Laz

[Gator]

Is everyone having fun?!  Too much.

I will ignore most of this as I come in two pages late.  Yet my dear friend SeriouslyJaded has expressed a few comments that capture IMO what went wrong.

And why exactly should I give him [Mars] a break? I found the man and his attitudes to be repugnant and, as far as I'm concerned he and men like him, is the stereotypical MOB type that gives the whole international dating scene a bad name.

You sound like an elitist.  Who made you God to decide who can meet FSU women and what these men can say to them?  What was wrong with Mars?  He was on a mission to help orphanages.  That sounds noble.  And you purposely set out to sabotage his trip report.  Is that not malicious?   And it contributed to Mars' departure, thereby stopping a Trip Report that many at RWD were reading with interest.  You indirectly cntributed to censoring what RWD members could read.

All of us are different as are the women we pursue and the approaches one uses.  Accept it. 

And their relationship and her [vwrw] attitude to men is very far from the norm. Now, perhaps you'd like to give me scholarly rebuttal to that?

Easy to rebut.  First, read vwrw's post please.  Would you care to know about her exemplary academic achievements?

From my perspective,  you don't know anything about vwrw's relationship to claim it is "very far from the norm" except in age disparity.  Assuming that there is something that is not normal (e. g., Turbo wears her dresses), what is the relevance to her discussion.  SJ, you did not debate the merits.  You lashed out with a personal insult as if to say "How dare she question my opinion!"

Of course, you'd be welcome to try [punch you in the nose] but it'd probably raise more of a chuckle than anything.

I like that.  Some humor (I hope your face didn't crack when you smiled).   And it would have made a few bystanders chuckle as we roll around on the dirty floor. 

It seems that Scandinavian bluntness doesn't sit well with Americans though. ...Perhaps you would like to reread what I said to confirm that.

Yes, you are blunt.  Why would a person take pride in his bluntness?   Being blunt is not the same as making a valid and relevant point succinctly and quickly.  A lot of young smart people do well in their first years of business and later get passed over because they do not recognize or care how their behavior adversely affects other people.

Please don’t hand me the crap about Europeans being as blunt as you.  I know Europeans from my business, professional and social circles.

[Gator]

I'm done with TR critiquing. There will be no more from me.

Almost as melodramatic as the kid who takes his ball and goes home.  Instead, why not enhance your interesting writing.  With regard to your comments regarding erc’s T/R, I agree with much of the substance of your comments.  Your timing and delivery were not good, however. 

From me to you:

[ecr844]

And I submit to you sir, that the ONLY one on this forum crying, sniveling and playing the "blame game" is you.

Laz

There's nothing quite so elitist or as caustic as the elitism which is practiced by those who imagine themselves as the inamorata of their perceived fellow elite.

[Admin]

It is truly a sad day Dan when the Admin feels the necessity to "protect" and come to the aid of the perceived "weak" and "defenseless". 
I truly hope the Mod's do not continue in this way and try to "crack the whip" on other posters as well.
IMHO, I believe that it would truly be a BIG mistake for the future growth of RWD.
And actually Dan, I am not really that "upset" with this @#%*&#%, but I am annoyed with the "head games" that he tries to play here.


Laz

Actually, if the Mods and I were acting to "protect" or "crack the whip" this topic would look much different. What you are witness to is that MANY of our members, myself and much of the Moderator corps, are offering THEIR strong opinions as to the disruptive behavior of only a few.

It is hoped that our members will respond positively with no need for further intervention.

- Dan

[Vaughn]

It is truly a sad day Dan when the Admin feels the necessity to "protect" and come to the aid of the perceived "weak" and "defenseless". 

 

That's even more pathetic than your complaint about guys like ecr Eric making the search more difficult for pros like yourself.

What tripe. Trollish. I'm still waiting, but not holding my breath, for a valid response to my questions, Lazarus. A few of us
would like to know who you really are - and were.

Sheeeesh - the games people play.

[Ade]

First, here is a scholarly rebuttal of your view that atypical people are not credible informants on what is normal or abnormal for a culture.

For anthropologists, it has been extremely important to find good informants, who would help them to interpret what they observe in a foreign culture. Therefore, they have devised a test, called the “cultural consensus model”, to help them to find accurate and trustworthy informants. To anthropologists’ surprise, many of their best informants, who provide the answers and interpretations that closely match the cultural consensus, appear to be atypical people in their culture. Here is a quote from my anthropology textbook “It may seem paradoxical but the most knowledgeable and helpful individuals (in the sense that they provide trustworthy info) are not necessarily “typical” individual. Many anthropologists have pointed out that key informants are likely to be somewhat marginal in their culture”.

As you can see SJ, your assumption that atypical people are not credible is disproved by the scientific findings.          

SJ, how can you know what I think  when you are even incapable of comprehending what I say. In response to your post, I told you that my conception of what is normal for 20+ girls differs from what you say it is. In general, I told you your statement was false and invalid one; yet, you come here again and insist that you know better than me what I am thinking. Why do you do this? Why do you need to ascribe to me beliefs which I do NOT hold?    

Interesting re the anthropologists and something I haven't read before but I'll be sure to follow that up.

But I guess if anyone should understand the point of my "atypical" comment it's you, as you have, without a doubt, one of the most analytical minds here. Very much atypically so in fact, to the point where I have wondered in the past if you have emotions at all.

As you probably know, there are very good reasons why blind and double blind testing is used in just about every human endeavour these days, not least of which because of the human condition of perceiving what they want to perceive based on preference and bias - I guess you've heard the terms confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance? No one is immune unfortunately. The fact that you are in a certain type of extreme relationship, and I mean extreme in the sense that you are way out there on the tail of the bell curve, certainly indicates that you think very much differently than the average young woman, does it not? And perhaps now the relevance of my comment should be more apparent to those people less analytical than yourself.

FWIW, no insult was intended and I wish you and Turbo the best possible chance of success a relationship such as yours can have.

[Daveman]

I'm not sure what the hell to make of this thread. BTW "Hell" is not profanity.. it's in the Bible.  :evil:

Now that there appears to be somewhat of a lull in the animosity, let's try to consolidate the points from the thread.

One point that stands out to me is the one (I think from Misha) about the loss of interest in participating in later discussion if the report is dragged out sans response. I think this is a valid point.  

What are some others (pro or con, or new suggestions)?  Be as concise as possible.

[Ade]

Almost as melodramatic as the kid who takes his ball and goes home. 

No, not really, but life is too short to argue incessantly about the same things. And it's for that very same reason I'm not going to argue with Dan as, at best, it would end up as an agreement to disagree and we'd be back to where we already are or me being banned. Both pretty futile alternatives.

[Daveman]

No, not really, but life is too short to argue incessantly about the same things. And it's for that very same reason I'm not going to argue with Dan as, at best, it would end up as an agreement to disagree and we'd be back to where we already are or me being banned. Both pretty futile alternatives.

 >>I'm not going to argue with Dan as... it would end up... [with] me being banned.<<

Highly unlikely as opposing viewpoints are encouraged. You'd have to resort to making threats, create a new username and agree with yourself then go to war about it, or be a completely asinine idiot (and the latter is so ridiculously redundant I doubt you fall in that category).

So rather than argue with the Danimal, why not put up some clear points as to why you espouse your position? I'd like to get this thread back on track and with some real and valid (concise) points for management (and the members) to ponder.

[Ade]

>>I'm not going to argue with Dan as... it would end up... [with] me being banned.<<

Highly unlikely as opposing viewpoints are encouraged. You'd have to resort to making threats, create a new username and agree with yourself then go to war about it, or be a completely asinine idiot (and the latter is so ridiculously redundant I doubt you fall in that category).

Well, those 2 alternatives were the most likely, and even if being banned is on the extreme side, it is still an alternative.

So rather than argue with the Danimal, why not put up some clear points as to why you espouse your position? I'd like to get this thread back on track and with some real and valid (concise) points for management (and the members) to ponder.

I already have, several times but to be more explicit.

People have many choices here when posting a TR, without mentioning various hybrids they are 1) Sans response, 2) Wait until it's finished and post the the entire TR at once, 3) Post in stages in an open thread and accept that people will comment positively and/or negatively.

Seems to me some people want to control and dictate what should and shouldn't be said and when in an open forum which is what the SR section was created for in the first place I guess. If it's so that the TR sections have "continuity" without interruption between postings until it's finished then that's taken care of by option 2).

Although I see no real reason not to allow for the migration of a completed TR from sans response, I have to wonder at the motives of those people that just have to have their TR read, but not interrupted, before it has been completed and, perhaps, therein lies the reason why you shouldn't acquiesce to such requests after all...?

[GQBlues]

I'm upping this 2 cents more...

SJ provided a link up thread for ECR's T/R that was done on another board 2-3 months ago. The T/R is the same exact reporting as shown here. So far so good. But in defense of SJ's position on this matter I would like to submit this thought.

It appears ECR was far more accepting of interruptions on the other board, including criticism, almost from the start despite his T/R sporting the very same request to delay any type of posting until he was done with his report. ECR was completely locked in a dialogue with almost every single one in the thread, including his detractors, while he was making further installments to his saga. It appeared as though ECR didn't just mind the interruptions, he was actually engaged in total discussion. What happened here seem rather benign by comparison - yet, it was 'bad enough' to have caused the creation of this thread. At best, ECR appear inconsistent with his conviction; at worst, he has a whole other agenda. Somewhere in the middle would still be enough to cause a pause.

So I can fully understand how some of the members who were aware of the existence of that report could easily take exception and disregard the request to refrain from posting. Matter of fact, I'm really surprised how the first 3/4 noted interruptions that happened on this board were deemed significant enough considering the content.

But...in the end, ECR (as others will likely follow) did make that request 'here' and frankly, shouldn't that be all everyone really need to know?

As for the personal squabble on this thread, and others...here yah go

I had mentioned to someone in a PM I sent that one of the classiest guy I had come to know since I started this journey is 'Gator'. That esteem hasn't wavered since day one. Since actively participating here on RWD, one of the guys who I felt an admiration for is SJ (dude, you gotta change that handle) among others, for his style and consistency in his conviction. Reminds me of JB in some ways. But like JB, not everyone will find him cuddly.

Lastly, it will be immensely interesting to see ECR finish his report, but I will however throw caution his way....with all the hoopla now on both boards, that baby better be an ending no less than the movie 'Sixth Sense'.

'is all i'm sayin'

[Jumper]

Although I see no real reason not to allow for the migration of a completed TR from sans response, I have to wonder at the motives of those people that just have to have their TR read, but not interrupted

SJ- you see no real reason to not have a third option..
I think most agree?

I asked early in the thread  if anyone had any solid reasons not to offer that option.

not surprisingly, 7 pages later  after plenty of acidic posts,  we really have none?

only a few thoughts that maybe such a TR wouldn't have as much response.


Any random speculation on why a member wouldn't like interruptions,
or would prefer a third option in avoiding them.. 
is like speculating why some members after 7 pages , really seem to prefer to  interrupt TR's in a disruptive fashion ?
Offering the third option , effects only those bent on disrupting, mid TR.

Both *may* have the same motivations..?

Overall this dissection of a fairly inconsequential option, shows some of the  general tendencies that happen in a TR..

All this and likely noone will even use the option, if offered..

yet if it encouraged more  TR's ,it seems worthwhile to me.