more single men than women article

[Gator]

Gator, a man cannot change over night flight from America to FSU. Thus, if the man’s personality, values, and dating techniques were inhibiting his dating in America, then those things should also inhibit his dating in FSU.

Excellent point.  They should except:

But they do not because a man who could not find a wife for himself in America for years often becomes engaged after one week wonder in FSU.  This means there is an important variable in play other than the man’s personality, values, and dating techniques, and the important variable is female requirements for her potential husband.

And....

Some of these female requirements seem to have a low threshold if a woman can decide in one week about something so serious.   I mean what can you know about a man in one week?

[GQBlues]

If I'm a high end lawyer working in downtown SF I'll come in contact with more women than if I'm a dork computer game programmer working from home. What matters is your individual situation not some men to women ratio.

Exactly! Speaking of individual situation, here's one computer geek who's destined to be swarmed by delicious desirable women soon 'nuff. Another testament, in addition to moi, that one need not be good-looking or rich to be considered desirable by attractive women.

Rupesh Shingadia simply happened to inadvertently stepped on a 'sexy' moment and thus likely to get more attention than he had ever imagined before.

[Misha]

By the way, I was jesting about an employment opportunity for you in writing negative political ads.  Inexplicably humorless folks are unable to grasp such, much less engage in repartee.

Well, I am happy that you at least find humor in your trite remarks, certainly not repartee, before we descend into ad hominem.

From here in Tampa I can see a sneer building on your face in Moose Jaw.

You see sneer, I see you exuding smugness from my northern vantage point.

I assert that statistics would show the local women represent appropriate matches for the local men.

And, this is where you would be wrong. The fact of the matter is that different cities can have quite distinct demographics. Small, industrial cities, generally attract more men and educated women will generally leave to go live in larger cities. If you live in a smaller city, the more specific you are in the type of woman that you seek, the more difficult it will be to find an appropriate partner (unless you make compromises). It will be even worse if you live in a small town. Likewise, I understand that finding young, eligible women would have been a challenge for Ed if he were living in a region of Florida that attracts large numbers of retirees. In certain locales, single men and single women will have a difficult time finding suitable matches. When this is the case, it does not matter how much you drill, you are not likely to be successful. Yes, at a much larger scale, there will be appropriate matches in your country, but what happens if you don't meet, what happens if neither can move or are unwilling to move?

We seem to be in agreement on one point: men who marry women from Russia are invariably doing so because they can marry a woman who is invariably younger/more attractive/better educated/etc. than the type of women they could date and marry at home. This is why I am cynical when I hear claims from men that they were able to date young, attractive, wonderful women back home, yet somehow just went to Russia and got married.

Have a nice day in Moose Jaw.

I will.

[GQBlues]

Not that's a "deep" thought!  

Obviously, based on that post, you'll have difficulties distinguishing one if you tripped over it.  

[Gator]

You see sneer, I see you exuding smugness from my northern vantage point.

Pot...kettle....black.

And, this is where you would be wrong. The fact of the matter is that different cities can have quite distinct demographics.

Okay, but is there a significant difference?  You disclose little about your wife, yet I believe you did not find her in a large city.  Is Russia different from Canada in that few young RW move to the large cities?  [Moscow Does not Believe in Tears was released in 1979.]

Likewise, I understand that finding young, eligible women would have been a challenge for Ed if he were living in a region of Florida that attracts large numbers of retirees.

There are 4 million people in the greater Tampa area. 19% are over 65.  20% are 18-34.  You do the math.
 

This is why I am cynical when I hear claims from men that they were able to date young, attractive, wonderful women back home, yet somehow just went to Russia and got married.

It happens.  Either that, or every man who goes to the FSU is a loser and every woman brought back is desperate.

I think, Misha, if you had the pleasure of meeting GQ, you would understand.  Yet, go ahead and call him a liar.

At least Misha you did not slight the Canadian women.  And that is my biggest peeve when I hear other men slighting AW with such slander as calling them fat.

Did you know that 42% of Canadian men are considered overweight (not obese) vs. 30% of women?  To whom falls the disparity?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/t/adults-adultes/4144181-eng.htm

[Jack]

I took you off ignore, Mr. Obama so I could learn from your infinite wisdom!

GQ, you should feel honored.

This is why I am cynical when I hear claims from men that they were able to date young, attractive, wonderful women back home, yet somehow just went to Russia and got married.

This is one thing Misha has posted that I pretty much agree with.  I laugh when I hear this as well.   I think 999 out of every 1000 men can NOT find, or marry, a Russian type woman from back home.  Men from all over the world go to Ukraine and Russia and Belarus, Moldova, Kazakhstan to find the type woman they wish they could find at home.  They cannot.  We men, myself included, and every man I know seeking a Rus/Ukr woman, we go to the FSU in hopes of finding the type woman we always, or as I like to say, first dreamed about.  The percentage of these type women who exist in America is a very low number while the percentage of these type women in the FSU is a much higher number. 

[Jooky]

The fact of the matter is that different cities can have quite distinct demographics. Small, industrial cities, generally attract more men and educated women will generally leave to go live in larger cities. If you live in a smaller city, the more specific you are in the type of woman that you seek, the more difficult it will be to find an appropriate partner (unless you make compromises).

Yup, but again this has nothing to do with the premise of this thread, which is an overall shortage of women in the US (in particular in large metropolitan areas).

Even in your small town, your individual situation is what matters.

I can believe that online personals was a waste of time in your town. The population of my town and it's neighbors is about 30,000. I just did a search on match.com in my area, women 25-40. A grand total of 38 profiles. Of those there are maybe 5 I'd even consider contacting. In the same range there are 104 men.

Does that mean that there are 3 men to every woman in my area? Nope. I just means that online personals is not the best way to meet women in my town. I could probably meet more women in one 30 minute Yoga class as Gator suggested, than I could from writing to every single woman with an online personal in my area. But I'm not into Yoga, I'm into champagne.

I can compare by searching mamba.ru in Novosibirsk. In the same age range there are nearly 10,000 profiles, and I'd contact 5 women on the first page alone if I was searching. (For the sake of comparison there are also over 12,000 men in that range. So much for the physical lack of men.)

So if I cast cast my line where there are 10,000 potential catches, I start with the advantage bait of being a foreigner, and catch of the day is more appealing of course I'll have much better results than casting where there are only 38 fish. But that's comparing two very different specific situations.

I agree that online dating is easier in Russia. The hardest thing in online dating is standing out. On a Russian site you can stand out by being a foreigner. On a bride type site you can stand out by being normal.

[Misha]

Pot...kettle....black.

Here we can agree.
 

Okay, but is there a significant difference?  You disclose little about your wife, yet I believe you did not find her in a large city.  Is Russia different from Canada in that few young RW move to the large cities?  [Moscow Does not Believe in Tears was released in 1979.]

There are similar forces at play in smaller Russian cities. Regional capitals tend to attract more women: as students going to university and as women are often more likely to find and accept jobs that are more common in regional cities (working in stores, working in schools, etc....). You will also find many young women seeking marriage partners to stay in the city. In other cities, industrial cities in Russia, you will find jobs that are more likely to attract and keep men in those cities. Consequently, you have some cities in Russia that have reputations as being "cities of brides" and some cities and many small rural towns where men won't be able to find brides. Quite often they can't easily pack up and move as they have to take care of the farm or they do not have the education to find the jobs that they will need to find jobs in the city.

In other words, in some cities, the women once they have reached a certain age (mid-twenties) will begin to complain that they cannot find eligible marriage partners. If you factor in the differences in substance abuse rates, this will also skew the proportion of "eligible" men that a serious woman looking to start a family would actually want to marry. In such cities, it is quite easy to find women to date and marry if you are a decent guy. It is not that there aren't any eligible men, but they may not want to move to a village to marry or they may not tolerate as easily a man who drinks a bit too much. They make their choices as we make ours.
 

It happens.  Either that, or every man who goes to the FSU is a loser and every woman brought back is desperate. I think, Misha, if you had the pleasure of meeting GQ, you would understand.  Yet, go ahead and call him a liar.

Perhaps, but I can only judge what I read. As such, I find it disingenuous to try to elevate oneself while we are all pretty much in the same boat. I don't see it as being a "loser", rather the recognition that any man who marries a woman from another country is doing so with the belief that the woman is somehow better than any woman he could have found and married at home. Generally, men define better as younger and more attractive. One would have to be either a fool or a masochist given the emotional and financial costs involved to seek love overseas if one was solely seeking at best a woman comparable to one at home. 

At least Misha you did not slight the Canadian women.  And that is my biggest peeve when I hear other men slighting AW with such slander as calling them fat.

Why would I? There are many wonderful, intelligent, attractive and talented Canadian women that I would have married in a heartbeat given the opportunity. 

Did you know that 42% of Canadian men are considered overweight (not obese) vs. 30% of women?  To whom falls the disparity?

Given that I certainly fall in this 42%, I do not contest the stats. Fortunately, I found a woman who valued intelligence over BMI 

[Eduard]

I'm glad I didn't get my education at that university

+1

[Daveman]

I'm not sure I am following the logic within the debate here... Misha worked in Russia, learned the Russian language, found his wife in a smaller town in Russia, seems to be quite happy, resides in a smaller town in Canada (I take it Moose Jaw - where I have personally been three time this past spring/summer and while not seeing every inhabitant of the city, I can certainly see Misha's point.. and I love to stop and eat at the Ponderosa there just off the main throughfare)... didn't find what he wanted there so looked elsewhere and found her..

Also, allow me to point out something about Canada, and especially Saskatchewan.. there are miles and miles and miles of absolutely nothing but farmland with clusters of people seemingly raked together in town clumps. Moose Jaw is not a large metropolis.  The scattering of the human clumps in SK is rather different from what anyone in California or Florida would be accustomed, i.e., little towns generally being suburbs of larger metro areas. I would surmise that Misha would have had a much more tedious search in SK than Ed in Florida...

So what exactly is the impetus for this particular debate? 

[tim 360]

I'm not sure I am following the logic within the debate here... Misha worked in Russia, learned the Russian language, found his wife in a smaller town in Russia, seems to be quite happy, resides in a smaller town in Canada (I take it Moose Jaw - where I have personally been three time this past spring/summer and while not seeing every inhabitant of the city, I can certainly see Misha's point.. and I love to stop and eat at the Ponderosa there just off the main throughfare)... didn't find what he wanted there so looked elsewhere and found her..

Also, allow me to point out something about Canada, and especially Saskatchewan.. there are miles and miles and miles of absolutely nothing but farmland with clusters of people seemingly raked together in town clumps. Moose Jaw is not a large metropolis.  The scattering of the human clumps in SK is rather different from what anyone in California or Florida would be accustomed, i.e., little towns generally being suburbs of larger metro areas. I would surmise that Misha would have had a much more tedious search in SK than Ed in Florida...

So what exactly is the impetus for this particular debate? 

Geezzz Dave you are making perfect sense here.  How dare you?  Misha in Moose Jaw SK lives in a target poor area and Ed in FL while having a target rich area (much more women) both found their wives in the FSU because it was more target rich for the type of woman they each wanted to marry.  Why did Dillinger rob the banks?  'Cuz thats where the money was.

[JR]

Gator, a man cannot change over night flight from America to FSU. Thus, if the man’s personality, values, and dating techniques were inhibiting his dating in America, then those things should also inhibit his dating in FSU. But they do not because a man who could not find a wife for himself in America for years often becomes engaged after one week wonder in FSU.  This means there is an important variable in play other than the man’s personality, values, and dating techniques, and the important variable is female requirements for her potential husband.

It's called "The Three/Four Laws of Chasing an FSUW."

1. The available pool is younger.

2. The available pool is hotter.

3. The available pool is easier.

4. The percieved economic disparity makes "untouchable" men (as in I wouldn't touch that man with a ten foot pole if he were a local) magically touchable.

[JR]

Geezzz Dave you are making perfect sense here.  How dare you?  Misha in Moose Jaw SK lives in a target poor area and Ed in FL while having a target rich area (much more women) both found their wives in the FSU because it was more target rich for the type of woman they each wanted to marry.  Why did Dillinger rob the banks?  'Cuz thats where the money was.

I think the difference would be found in the intent of the individuals involved and only they know that.

I do believe Canada has some major cities that are easier to reach than the FSU. So if one is willing to travel to Kiev/St Pete/Moscow/Siberia to meet women that same person could just as easily (perhaps easier?) travel to major metropolitan cities within Canada and meet women, heck they could travel to Florida....though the women available would likely be several rungs lower on the pecking order. Disclaimer: absolutely NO reflection upon any poster/reader here, only the situation.

[Misha]

I do believe Canada has some major cities that are easier to reach than the FSU. So if one is willing to travel to Kiev/St Pete/Moscow/Siberia to meet women that same person could just as easily (perhaps easier?) travel to major metropolitan cities within Canada and meet women, heck they could travel to Florida....though the women available would likely be several rungs lower on the pecking order. Disclaimer: absolutely NO reflection upon any poster/reader here, only the situation.

But would the women from the larger cities in Canada be willing to move? If they are in their mid-to-late twenties, have career-track jobs, trust me, they won't generally quit, pack up and move to a smaller city  Been there, done that, won't work.

[Gator]

Why did Dillinger rob the banks?  'Cuz thats where the money was.

You young fellas get most of it correct but miss some interesting parts.

"...where the money is...." is attributed to Wille Sutton, not Dillinger.  The eloquent,  witty and gentlemanly Sutton wrote this in his memoirs:

[when you get to the bold part, substitute "FSU" for "bank" to describe many a RWD man]

The irony of using a bank robber's maxim as an instrument for teaching medicine is compounded, I will now confess, by the fact that I never said it. The credit belongs to some enterprising reporter who apparently felt a need to fill out his copy...

If anybody had asked me, I'd have probably said it. That's what almost anybody would say...it couldn't be more obvious.

Or could it?

Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job.But to me the money was the chips, that's all.
 
Go where the money is...and go there often.

 

[Daveman]

I think the difference would be found in the intent of the individuals involved and only they know that.

I do believe Canada has some major cities that are easier to reach than the FSU. So if one is willing to travel to Kiev/St Pete/Moscow/Siberia to meet women that same person could just as easily (perhaps easier?) travel to major metropolitan cities within Canada and meet women, heck they could travel to Florida....though the women available would likely be several rungs lower on the pecking order. Disclaimer: absolutely NO reflection upon any poster/reader here, only the situation.

No doubt true... Hell, it would probably be easier for me to meet women in Canada since I spend so much time there anyway (and I have met a few... so far just fun though, as THEY don't want to relocate and I personally don't think I'd survive a winter there).  I've spent time in Halifax, St Johns, Vancouver, Victoria, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton...and only god know how many small towns from east to west and as far north as La Crete.  There are 300 million USA residents, as opposed to 30 Million Canadians. Sure, they could find what they are searching for if they searched long enough to find that special compatible woman also willing to relocate).  Of all the places to which I've been there, St Johns seems and I repeat seems to have a disproportionate number of women to men. LOTS of ladies there, some quite cute too..  

[Gator]

So what exactly is the impetus for this particular debate? 

There is nothing else on the menu to argue!

No one is questioning Misha's tales from Moose Jaw.  From my perspective this little "debate" started with GQ the Hawaiian surfer boy from LA remarking that he was not starving for women when he first went to the FSU.  Misha, who found not one suitable woman in Moose Jaw, expressed doubt about GQ's statement.

[I made that up about Moose Jaw.   We don't know where Misha lives.   Because GQ is deemed untrustworthy by cynics, maybe he is from Squaw's Tit, not far from the mountain Nellie's Nipple (actual California locations).]

Seriously, I joined in because I know GQ, and I too was not starving for attractive and interesting women when I went to the FSU, even though I am well past my physical prime.  My thesis is that many men have not exhausted all local hunting opportunities, and instead take the easy route to pursue their dreams in the surplus-laden FSU.   

Perhaps I should write more about this.  Meeting purty women  is easy in the FSU  but there is more to the story.

[Misha]

Seriously, I joined in because I know GQ, and I too was not starving for attractive and interesting women when I went to the FSU, even though I am well past my physical prime.

The question is whether they would have married you. Having a date with a beautiful woman is not the same as marrying aforementioned woman 

 

[Daveman]

There is nothing else on the menu to argue!

No one is questioning Misha's tales from Moose Jaw.  From my perspective this little "debate" started with GQ the Hawaiian surfer boy from LA remarking that he was not starving for women when he first went to the FSU.  Misha, who found not one suitable woman in Moose Jaw, expressed doubt about GQ's statement.

[I made that up about Moose Jaw.   We don't know where Misha lives.   Because GQ is deemed untrustworthy by cynics, maybe he is from Squaw's Tit, not far from the mountain Nellie's Nipple (actual California locations).]

Seriously, I joined in because I know GQ, and I too was not starving for attractive and interesting women when I went to the FSU, even though I am well past my physical prime.  My thesis is that many men have not exhausted all local hunting opportunities, and instead take the easy route to pursue their dreams in the surplus-laden FSU.   

Perhaps I should write more about this.  Meeting purty women  is easy in the FSU  but there is more to the story.

Well, your quote a couple of posts upthread (replacing "money" with "FSU") perfectly describes this RWD'er.  I just adore the process, the travel, the adventure, the challenges of cross cultural pursuit and understanding, and the innate humor and absurdity involved sometimes.  It's the best adventure upon which I've ever embarked and it would also be wonderful if I find my life partner as well.  

Even when I go there, I don't date the model types that I can't find here.. they really are virtually identical to the "blue jean girls"  I date here save for the European style when they dress up and that sexy accent.  The 'model' types tend to be too high maintenance (which I tolerate for about 4 seconds now, or one night - whichever comes first before hitting the highway). I outgrew the phase of chasing (and unfortunately also catching) those.  

We each have our reasons for this pursuit... and I admit it - mine is that I'm addicted to the absolutely wondrous adventure of it all.

[Misha]

THEY don't want to relocate

Sounds familiar. Here is an example as to how it would work in the United States. I drove through central Washington State recently. Came across some nice little towns and cities (Moses Lake, Soap Lake...). Let's imagine a hypothetical 35-40 year old educated male who has not found his soul mate. Seattle is (relatively speaking) not that far away. Do you think that this hypothetical man will have much success in convincing an attractive woman in her late twenties or early thirties to move from Seattle to Moses Lake if she has a good job? Or, even if she thinks that she has a good chance of establishing a career in Seattle? Methinks the odds would not be in his favor 

P.S. I was surprised to discover that both Moses Lake and Soap Lake have large Russian-speaking populations as I was surprised to discover a little "русский магазин" in the latter.

[JR]

But would the women from the larger cities in Canada be willing to move? If they are in their mid-to-late twenties, have career-track jobs, trust me, they won't generally quit, pack up and move to a smaller city   Been there, done that, won't work.

I agree with you. And that falls under the heading of FSUW being "easier" and rule number four about economic disparity.

But I would have to say that with the same level of effort and upfrontedness you could find many who would. The primary difference being that an FSUW already has it in her understanding that she will move and probably it is a moving factor in why she is putting herself out there. Oh yeah, and she'll also be younger and hotter than the old Eskimo that'll move to Moose Droppings, Canada population 123. ))))

[Misha]

The primary difference being that an FSUW already has it in her understanding that she will move and probably it is a moving factor in why she is putting herself out there.

I would say that the difference will be in the available men. An attractive women late-twenties in age woman in a large city in Canada will have her pick of quality men and won't be lacking in dates. What is her motivation to move? She knows she will find a decent guy soon enough IMHO. A RW in a smaller Russian city won't be so convinced of this if she hasn't had a credible husband material contender for months or longer 

[JR]

I would agree with you to a certain degree Misha, however, those same women could move to a bigger city where the number of men would be larger. 

Think about this. If you apply ecomonics as a pointing device you'll note that the flow of women and money point in the same directions. You won't find women from very small towns in the US or Canada marrying a RM and moving to Moscow just so she can have a "husband."

[Misha]

I would agree with you to a certain degree Misha, however, those same women could move to a bigger city where the number of men would be larger. 

Possible, but not as easy in Russia. Moving to a large city invariably means paying inflated costs for rent and in the largest of cities, unless you have relatives, you will have to find a really good job and commute quite far daily. Even then, there is no guarantee that you will find a decent man to start a family.

Think about this. If you apply ecomonics as a pointing device you'll note that the flow of women and money point in the same directions. You won't find women from very small towns in the US or Canada marrying a RM and moving to Moscow just so she can have a "husband."

True, but some women from Russia will not move solely for financial reasons. My wife, for example, turned down a marriage proposal from a German citizen who was courting her (my wife has family in Germany and the fellow was her father's neighbour). She simply did not love him and did not find him intelligent enough. So, yes, it is easier moving from Russia in terms of economics, but not all women are driven solely by finances, and IMHO you should avoid like the plague those women who are only doing it for the economics of it.

[tim 360]

You young fellas get most of it correct but miss some interesting parts.

"...where the money is...." is attributed to Wille Sutton, not Dillinger.  The eloquent,  witty and gentlemanly Sutton wrote this in his memoirs:

[when you get to the bold part, substitute "FSU" for "bank" to describe many a RWD man]
  

Thanks for the correct attribution Gator.