When to have a baby?

[GQBlues]

Aloe, I gather if one had to ask as to when is the right time, maybe now isn't quite the right time for you?

I was complimented with a really nice message by one of my ex-GF's grandfathera few blue moons ago. Wonderful, wonderful man...I was sitting at the patio facing the backyard and watching / playing with the children present then....Gramps placed his hand over the top of my head, looked down and said...." Son, if there's one thing you need to make sure in life, it is that you do not deprive yourself the joys of having your own children! "...

[Shostakovich]

Now, allow me to take the "Arthur Schopenhauer" view on pro-creating and what child-rearing will do to you and your life.

Aha, I knew there had to be at least one other nutter who reads the likes of Schopenhauer.  Sounds like you've got a hold of a copy of "The world as will and idea" and have even perhaps read one of the follow on essays such as "Metaphysics of love between the sexes", an application note based on the ideas in the main work. 

I never tire of recommending Schopenhauer, his work is beautifully written with each word carrying it's objective weight.  And, of course, I can not deny the pleasure of introducing Schopenhauer to the power of positive thinking and new-age crowds as his philosophy drives a sharp stick into their eyes.  "In these I have mine amusement, for they are like 8-day clocks: I wind them up with my mockery and watch them whirr thereby".  Great fun!  In fact Schopenhauer's pessimistic perspective has great merit, taken in context.  "the truth is covered by a golden disk" comes the word from old India.  And Schopenhauer is correct, in many ways, most people are just like wind-up toys: the rise and fall of the blood is just the echo from the millennium.   To get all hoo-hoo over the sight of a girl in the fertile years of life and think that in so doing you express an opinion that is really yours is a lot like a red tulip trying to convince us that it's preference really is for red.  The real freedom is in asceticism, the denial of the waves of life, or in elevation through high art: in these we obtain some perspective on the machinations of nature and gain some freedom from it. 

But...

Much as Schopenhauer entertains, and really is great, I just can not continue on its advocacy as I, like the red tulip, must act in accordance with my natural tendencies, which is to contradict.  Yes, I am a contrarian: those simple minded swamis -- what is truth and what is gold?  And perhaps it is exactly the thing you consider to be the 'higher truth' that obscures the real higher truth.  "Let them become decoyed from life by the life eternal" says Fred and he trumps Schopenhauer, sees his flaw.  Since, as any mathematician should be able to tell you, all logic is based on premises.  What is it that you want?  Desire is the real datum since the experience of existence is non-linear, it is self-referencing: the thing everything else is based on.  That might be the best and surest measure of a human - one who can live from their own light.  That does of course legitimize the barbarian - but only if you think so. 

Have a child or not?  Do what you do, but accept the consequences.       

[ML]

How many diapers a week does a baby use exactly? I have no slightest clue, is it like 10 or like 100 ?

Maybe 8 or more daily.

But important thing is to not be fooled by the weights shown on the diaper package.

In USA, the package indicates pounds; like in 12-15, etc.  But experience will prove that  the diapers really will not hold that much of the poo poo.

[ML]

Boethius is right and your not going to be doing school unless you have a live in nanny. 

The oriental women squat, deliver the baby, and go back to work in the rice paddys.

[ML]

How did you all have a baby? Was it planned? And did you feel ready for it when you found out you were gonna have one?

One of  the surest ways to get pregnant is to use the 'rhythm method' to avoid pregnancy.
Tell your hubby it will be a good way to save some money by foregoing the condoms and pills.

[Boethius]

But experience will prove that  the diapers really will not hold that much of the poo poo.

When was the last time you changed a diaper?  The diapers on the markets now (and 8  years ago or so, when I was last changing diapers) are fabulous and hold pretty much everything, if you have secured them properly.

[DKMM]

In defense of Aloe's husband he just started working and he is in his twenties.  Salaries also are not very high in Belgium but you get a lot of perks however Aloe has stated in the past that his company is a little cheap.  As he gets older his salary will increase.  Having a baby now may cause a little financial hardship however the big item will be the amount of time Aloe will have to spend on the baby.  Boethius is right and your not going to be doing school unless you have a live in nanny. 

But in Aloe's own words its Utopia and if only they spoke English we would all hop on over to a country where even the employed cannot afford a brood.  Plus the joy of forcing kids to pay for the healthcare of their elderly parents instead of spending it on the next generation.

[Aloe]

But in Aloe's own words its Utopia and if only they spoke English we would all hop on over to a country where even the employed cannot afford a brood.  Plus the joy of forcing kids to pay for the healthcare of their elderly parents instead of spending it on the next generation.

I think the fact that you can go to any doctor for 5-20 euro, or have a mostly plastic surgery done, including 3 days stay at the hospital  for 100 euro, and other cheap good quality medicine access, also the fact you can rent a social house for 100 euro a month for as long as you wish(you pay a % of your salary for that house, so for low earning or unemployed its extremely cheap to rent), and study in universities that are in top 100 universities worldwide for 600 euro a year (for everyone, not just for poor or brilliant people on scholarships), and the fact that the state won't let you starve or be homeless, all those facts would convince quite a lot of people to move to such a country. If they spoke the language
The downside is that taxes can get up to like 50% of your salary, if you earn a lot. Belgium is number 1 to 4 in different charts of highest taxes in the world. But taxes also vary depending on your personal situation (dependants and whatnot). I know 2 people who do about the same job, one earns 2700 brutto and receives 1700 after taxes, another makes 1700 brutto and receives 1600 after taxes.
Who says people can't afford children? Only my hubby does, and he has a hamster syndrome (like all belgians), to save save save save save and then save some more, until the end of time. His grandma who is like 70+ yrs old is still saving for her old age. Besides it's only been a year since he started working, and after asking multiple people how much they pay for a baby per month, they all named figures around 200-300 per month (without daycare), so we can afford it. Did you think you could afford a baby in your 2nd year of working(while having an unemployed/studying wife/gf depending on u)?
It is a rare exception that children have to pay for parents healthcare, cuz the older a person is in Belgium, the richer they are. Unlike in Russia, where the older a person is, the poorer they are. Here all the money is in the hands of old people. So most of them can afford their own healthcare. And if they didn't generate enough savings to afford it on their own, they get paid a pension in any case, (number depends on how many years they worked before retiring and it's many times higher than in FSU)
So yeah, i really wish more countries had it as good. I think even USa has it a lot worse, especially healthcare. But you do have a lot lower taxes

[remiel6]

I also worry about affording a child, but by the time the child is born I will be 3 or 4 months past taking the bar. Still the job market is not great even for lawyers. Heck if they spoke English I'd move to Belgium sounds great to me. Highest take bracket in the US is at around 36%. Before Kennedy took the white house, ironically when they still had balanced budgets the take rate on the wealthy was at 50%. I think if they let the Bush era tax breaks expire that 36 will go to 39% which it was during the Clinton years. In either case, you do what's right for you. Keep working on him and eventually he will change his mind

[kievstar]

I lived in Belgium if you have money and have a serious injury you do not get treatment in Belgium  Belgium provides decent low cost healthcare.  The older you get the longer the lines are for you as the younger generation has priority. 

For example a manager for me tore her ligament and shattered her knee cap.  Went into the highest rated hospital in the Wemmel / Brussels area and they said to use crutches and come back in 6 weeks for surgery.  She went to Netherlands and got fixed right away.  I can post 100 plus stories as well as the people I worked with complained all the time about the poor but cheap healthcare.   

I had an issue and visited a Brussels hospital and my insurance carrier transported me to Rotterdam as Belgium did not have the proper medical equipment. 

Belgium provides a decent level of service but it is not high quality.  But it is low cost.  I am not a big fan of low cost healthcare.  You pay for what you get.

Regarding education there no top 100 universities there.  They do have two decent schools in Katholieke Universiteit Leuven (Dutch speaking university) and Université Libre de Bruxelles (French speaking university).  Moscow has higher rated university.    Those two schools offer some classes in English but have to be native in either French or Dutch to graduate.  School is very cheap as government subsidies it. 

[Aloe]

I lived in Belgium if you have money and have a serious injury you do not get treatment in Belgium  Belgium provides decent low cost healthcare.  The older you get the longer the lines are for you as the younger generation has priority. 

For example a manager for me tore her ligament and shattered her knee cap.  Went into the highest rated hospital in the Wemmel / Brussels area and they said to use crutches and come back in 6 weeks for surgery.  She went to Netherlands and got fixed right away.  I can post 100 plus stories as well as the people I worked with complained all the time about the poor but cheap healthcare.   

I had an issue and visited a Brussels hospital and my insurance carrier transported me to Rotterdam as Belgium did not have the proper medical equipment. 

Belgium provides a decent level of service but it is not high quality.  But it is low cost.  I am not a big fan of low cost healthcare.  You pay for what you get.

Regarding education there no top 100 universities there.  They do have two decent schools in Katholieke Universiteit Leuven (Dutch speaking university) and Université Libre de Bruxelles (French speaking university).  Moscow has higher rated university.    Those two schools offer some classes in English but have to be native in either French or Dutch to graduate.  School is very cheap as government subsidies it. 

i dunno,  i wanted to have something done (that was basically a cosmetic surgery, not a health one), since first coming to doctor to operation itself was less than 1 month. Had an ultrasound, they decided to do an MRI, cuz ultrasound was inconclusive, so the MRI scan was on next day after ultrasound. That's mega fast, if you ask me And like i mentioned, i only paid 100 euro for it all. You said it yourself, Brussel and Flanders are 2 different worlds. We have a few brussels frenchies in our dutch class, they say themselves, that if you wanna get anything done, go to the dutch speaking people, as french speaking quality is a lot lower.
KU Leuven is in top 100 for sure. What language degree is in is irrelevant, as it is in a local native language, and that was exactly my point, if ppl spoke dutch, i think many would wanna move here for nice conditions

[kievstar]

Aloe, I agree on healthcare that is why they sent me to Dutchland in Rotterdam.   If you have to wait one day for MRI or catscan that is a longtime IMHO.  I would be dead if I had to rely on Belgium health - that is true.  

You pay for the healthcare with higher taxes but shared across the people. Trust me the cost is not 100 Euros as your husband is also paying higher taxes.

I noted the language with the universities as the country is split and a lot of hate between the two groups.  I worked for a company with mainly Dutch people and was interesting watching how the French and Dutch behaved together.  

But having babies Belgium has good healthcare for that.  The younger you are in Belgium the faster the service is.  When your 40 years old you may have a different opinion on the long wait you will have.

[Shadow]

Healthcare in Holland is good for foreigners, but had you been living there when needing the MRI you would be dead now. Natives need a note from the local doctor to enter the hospital or will be sent back.
The checkups during pregnancy of MrsShadow were in Belgium on a much more professional level, and I can say this from experience. As for other things, everywhere there are good and bad people in their profession. We regret the old local doctor going in to retirement, even if his son is not the worst person to take over.
The main thing is to find docors you can communicate with in a way that suits both. Different people need different styles.

[OlgaH]

If you have to wait one day for MRI or catscan that is a longtime IMHO.  I would be dead if I had to rely on Belgium health - that is true.  

It depends on a level of emergency, also some PET/CAT scans require to observe a fast for six hours prior the scan.  PET/CAT scans are usually scheduled and your appointment will depend on a radiology department hours and its schedule even in US.    

[kievstar]

OlgaH, I have has 2 Cat Scans past 4 years and 7 MRIS.   Even had one MRI in Kiev.  24 hour service.    True on food wait. 

Shadow I lived in Netherlands for 9 months several years ago.  Needing a note just like the USA but doctors in Netherlands always on call.  The issue in Belgium is they can not handle the rising costs so they buy older cheaper equipment and cater to the young including mothers expecting.  Aloe being young is going to get great service. 

Taking care of people over 50 years old is expensive and Belgium made the decision to handle costs by cutting there.  Slow down surgery time, don't buy certain equipment, etc.

People with serious issues and have money go somewhere else.  Just like in Ukraine where people with money go to Austria or Switzerland.  You give out cheap healthcare you have to cut somewhere. 

[OlgaH]

OlgaH, I have has 2 Cat Scans past 4 years and 7 MRIS.   Even had one MRI in Kiev.  24 hour service.    True on food wait. 

24 hour service? Do you mean at hospital when you are hospitalized and it is an emergency case?

Probably we don't have the radiology departments in Florida with 24 hours service as in other states  usually our Florida radiology departments' hours are 8 a.m. to 4.00 p.m.

[facetrock]

  I have been to Belgium and know an American woman who lives there with her Belgium husband. She despises the healthcare there. My sister is married to a man from Holland but lives here. Her husbands father a few years ago needed heart bypass surgery. The Holland healthcare system put him on a waiting list for three months. He died before surgery.

[Aloe]

Maybe by 40 yrs old i'll save enough money to buy a villa in thailand with maids and chef    Love Thailand

[JR]

The general problem with waiting until you can afford a child is that you will never make enough. People tend to "spend up" as their income increases. If you have a child now you will spend on the child what will otherwise turn into vacations, big screen tv, a new car, etc.

It's a matter of choices.

[Dar]

Of course, financial considerations should be taken into account. Aloe, I'd say if you've got at least 20 grant saved up or decant health insurance, you can easily take "a baby challenge". However, based on your posts here, I don't think you are quite ready for a baby. Your husband is right. It is better to wait. To have a baby is a serious decision that should not be made spontaneously. You seem to be pretty young. Please, take into consideration the fact that you will have to give up certain things that are much more serious than your fancy size 2 (or whatever) outfits for quite some time.  

At the moment I am pregnant. Why this is the right time for me? well, I was able to get a taste of American college life and actively participated in it for about two years. I am also married for more than 4 years. During those years I had an opportunity to spend the greatest time of my life with my husband alone traveling, going out and so on. I feel absolutely comfortable in my new home country USA, and I think that I am ready for the next step. That is to have a baby. Baby brings into you life happiness and extra responsibility. You are responsible for not only your own but also for your baby's life and future.Things I had to give up already (for your future reference): tight outfits, stiletto shoes, certain types of exercise, some food, a semester of classes at my university, new year's (and the next two years) holiday vocation, visits to Ukraine for the next two -three years, a delay in my internship and, therefore, graduation. More will come up when the baby arrives. I don't mind though because I am not in a hurry. Today I have somewhat different goals and priorities than I had just about 5 years ago. I also receive a great support from my husband who loves me very much and my family.
So, think carefully, girl. Are you really ready for this?

[Kuna]

You will NEVER have enough money to have children if you count the costs, but you can never calculate value of life after the miracle occurs.

Aloe, having children is wonderful but can be very difficult and stressful.  The timing has more to do with the health of a relationship rather than financial capacity as a strong relationship will see through any hardship.

You can't "push" your husband into it...it's too important a decision to do so... but you may be able to find ways of making him feel more confident about life with children. As much as I wanted kids I was quite nervous when I found out my wife was pregnant, it's a big responsibility for a dumb male to take on.  Of course it worked out fine but when number two was "discovered" that samesense of anxiety popped it's head upfor thefirst 5minutes... then the realisation of our growing family took over.

No matter what happens, just remember,practice makes perfect!

[Aloe]

Of course, financial considerations should be taken into account. Aloe, I'd say if you've got at least 20 grant saved up or decant health insurance, you can easily take "a baby challenge". However, based on your posts here, I don't think you are quite ready for a baby. Your husband is right. It is better to wait. To have a baby is a serious decision that should not be made spontaneously. You seem to be pretty young. Please, take into consideration the fact that you will have to give up certain things that are much more serious than your fancy size 2 (or whatever) outfits for quite some time.  

At the moment I am pregnant. Why this is the right time for me? well, I was able to get a taste of American college life and actively participated in it for about two years. I am also married for more than 4 years. During those years I had an opportunity to spend the greatest time of my life with my husband alone traveling, going out and so on. I feel absolutely comfortable in my new home country USA, and I think that I am ready for the next step. That is to have a baby. Baby brings into you life happiness and extra responsibility. You are responsible for not only your own but also for your baby's life and future.Things I had to give up already (for your future reference): tight outfits, stiletto shoes, certain types of exercise, some food, a semester of classes at my university, new year's (and the next two years) holiday vocation, visits to Ukraine for the next two -three years, a delay in my internship and, therefore, graduation. More will come up when the baby arrives. I don't mind though because I am not in a hurry. Today I have somewhat different goals and priorities than I had just about 5 years ago. I also receive a great support from my husband who loves me very much and my family.
So, think carefully, girl. Are you really ready for this?

Your post is so far from reality in my world. For us to save 20k would mean saving for many many many years, maybe 10, maybe more. Health insurance is very cheap here, i pay like 40 euro a year plus a little extra for hospitalization insurance, and like i mentioned upthread it covers up to 90% of costs of any medical involvement.
We can't travel as it is, so if i have a baby i'm not gonna miss out on any travelling. I don't wear stiletto heels, and usually no tight outfits, food is no big deal for me(we don't go to restaurants either, i'd love to, but it's too expensive), grandma will take care of baby while we are at school (already asked), so all the hardships you describe sound easy
Like i said, the lack of money IS a contributing factor to my decision to have a baby, cuz like i said, a few years later, when baby goes to kindergarten (that is free, not counting some very minor costs), then i'm free to find a job, so there will be no lack of money then, and a little baby won't remember that we had not so much money while he/she was little

[Aloe]

Aloe, having children is wonderful but can be very difficult and stressful.  The timing has more to do with the health of a relationship rather than financial capacity as a strong relationship will see through any hardship.

You can't "push" your husband into it...it's too important a decision to do so... but you may be able to find ways of making him feel more confident about life with children. As much as I wanted kids I was quite nervous when I found out my wife was pregnant, it's a big responsibility for a dumb male to take on.  Of course it worked out fine but when number two was "discovered" that samesense of anxiety popped it's head upfor thefirst 5minutes... then the realisation of our growing family took over.

My husband has arrived aboard, so to speak, the other day he said lets go for it   I'm just not sure what i'm supposed to do now, i looked it up on the net, some sources say you can try to conceive as soon as you stop the pill, and others say you have to use condoms for 3 months after using a pill, to make sure it's gone from the system. Decided to go ask a gynecologist, and maybe they have some kind of brochures on what to do lol Also read on the net i'm supposed to eat 5 portions of fruitevery day, i don't eat THAT much lol. If i have 5 portions of fruit, i won't have any space left for real food, so not sure how you are supposed to do that?
I know it can be stressful and difficult, but i hope he can manage

[facetrock]

  After you get pregnant pickles and ice cream will sound really good:) My exwife got pregnant the first month after she went off the pill every damn time. Maybe thats why I had all girls. So far they seem kind of normal.

[BC]

Aloe,

Great to see your relationship has stabilized to the point that you agree about having a child.  Just be sure that you both understand up front this will be a new stressor in your life and can have some 'hangover's' like post-partum depression (both sides btw) associated with it.. read up a bit, discuss with hubby up front and you'll be fine.  As far as finances go, the major hurdle is overcome by socialized medicine and good social service support so be happy.  Go to classes together when you get the chance, let hubby in on that first echogram picture etc etc.  Whatever you do, remember to keep your hubby happy by not letting him feel ignored with the goings on.  Make him a part from start to finish.

I wouldn't worry too much about condoms and such.. your body will know when it's time - and it probably takes a few months for the pill to 'wear off'.

You were born with all the eggs you need so not to worry which one is next in line.

Food?? - variety is the best solution.

I think you'll find that there is also an erotic aspect for both sides a la' 'knock me up baby!' so just 'do it' and enjoy trying - together.