A confident Kremlin is throwing its weight around.

[TigerPaws]

[size="4"][color="blue"]Dan,

 The problem with[/color]  "[/size]alternative sources such as solar and wind[color="blue"][size="4"]" is the hidden costs, the toxic waste from the mfg. of these products is [/size][/color][color="#0000ff"][size="4"]substantial and we have yet to come up with a good way of dealing with it. For now this waste is dried, baged, placed in drums and buried until Hell freezes over.  Much of the toxic waste has no known life under these conditions, 10,000 or more years is the best guess, then  there is the energy to mfg. the solar panels, and wind turbines, believe me there is no free lunch with these [/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]alternative energy sources.

 What to do, well for the foreseeable future we are stuck with using dead dino's of one form or another.
[/size][/color]

[Admin]

TP,

Actually, as far as I know anyway, wind and solar energy are among the very cleanest of all options.

While the NIMBY's claim there are horrible problems with spent nuclear fuel disposal - they conveniently overlook the magnitude of the problem with numerous pollutants from fossil fuel use that overwhelms (by several orders of magnitude) the nuclear disposal problems. While half-life considerations are not much of a factor with fossil-fuel toxins, the sheer magnitude of the volume is staggering and much LESS manageable than the nuclear fuel issue we hear so much about.

FWIW

- Dan

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"][color="blue"]Dan,

 You are missing the point, the mfg. of solar and wind energy systems produces vast[/color] [/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]quantities of very toxic waste which is does not go away, this is the by product of the mfg. process. There is no good way of disposing of these waste products so they are [/size][/color][color="#0000ff"][size="4"]buried, they do not go away, this is the hidden cost of so called clean energy.
[/size][/color]

[Michelangelo]

Tiger and JB, the cost of  buying foreign oil is much more than you think if you consider we are feeding money to the enemy.

Alternative fuel as well as more fuel efficiency makes sense.  And if the price does increase at the pump, the alternative fuels are no longer too expensive.

And yes, JB, we have borrowed billions from China.  I'll find the reference for you.

The pont is that we need to cut spending and increase fuel effiecency if we want a safer and more secure America.

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michalangelo,

 I will agree there are some serious side issues with purchasing oil from hostile nations but raising taxes is not the answer, do you REALLY believe our gonernment will spend that money wisely?

 Alt. fuels such which are agro based will not work so what do you suggest?
[/size][/color]

[jb]

we are feeding money to the enemy

This has been patently clear to me since Yasser Arafat started  hijacking airliners and killing US Servicemen back in the early  70's.  We all knew where his financial backers were coming from,  but no politican worth his re-election slogans is going to tell the  American voters they have to give up their love affair with the  privately owned and operated automobile and ride some sort of mass  transit bus line to get to and from work because we don't want to buy  oil from the Arabs.

It's political sucide to mess with a man's SUV.

[catzenmouse]

It's political sucide to mess with a man's SUV.

Which is why the US government will continue to kiss the collective Saudi butt far into the forseeable future.

Until the public in general stops mass buying of 8MPG vehicles there is no reason for the car companies or oil companies to offer a viable option. I would be very proud of this country if there was never another sale of such vehicles like Hummers and Excursions. But, thats just not going to happen is it?

Ken

[Michelangelo]

we are feeding money to the enemy

It's political sucide to mess with a man's SUV.
[/quote]hee hee....sad but true.

Thomas Friedman of the New York Times said pretty much the same think in an editorial last week--

"We are in a war against a radical, violent stream of Islam that is fueled and funded by our own energy purchases. We are financing both sides in the war on terrorism: the U.S. Army with our tax dollars, and Islamist charities, madrasas and terrorist organizations through our oil purchases."

Freedman also wrote:

"Friends, we are in the midst of an energy crisis - but this is not your grandfather's energy crisis. No, this is something so much bigger, for four reasons."

"If we don't quickly move to renewable alternatives to fossil fuels, we will warm up, smoke up and choke up this planet far faster than at any time in the history of the world. "

"...if we continue to depend on oil, we are going to undermine the whole democratic trend that was unleashed by the fall of the Berlin Wall. Because oil will remain at $60 a barrel and will fuel the worst regimes in the world - like Iran - to do the worst things for the world. Indeed, this $60-a-barrel boom in the hands of criminal regimes, and just plain criminals, will, if sustained, pose a bigger threat to democracies than communism or Islamism. It will be a black tide that turns back the democratic wave everywhere, including in Iraq."

"A permanent gasoline tax will also make solar, wind and biofuels so competitive with oil that it will drive their innovations as well."

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michelangelo,

 All well and good but have NOT made any suggestions as to what we do about the problem NOW. What is your answer?
 Do you really believe in socialism? Which is what you are suggesting, do you believe the American public will stand for it? Come on be real here not some pie in the sky never going to happen in you lifetime bull.
[/size][/color]

[Bruno]

In the case of fusion reactor ( now experimental ), the problem of nuclear waste almost dissappear. The half-life of the radioisotopes produced by fusion tend to be less than those from fission, so that the inventory decreases more rapidly. Such materials would have half-lives of tens of years, rather than the thousands of years for radioactive waste produced from fission.

Other solution for spare energy :

- Deep lake water cooler in place of elec airco :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_lake_water_cooling

- Geothermal Exchange heap pump :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_exchange_heat_pump

and several other exist... no one of these can replace the use of oil but with time... all these different renewable energy together can replace oil ( or other dirty form of energy ).

For these who have interest, a good PDF over renewable energy and the research plan on short and long term for Europe :

http://www.erec-renewables.org/documents/FP7/LR_Eurec_Energy.pdf

 

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Bruno,

 We are still at least 30 or more years away from fusion power, not that we should not research it but that is a very long term solution which I will never see.


[/size][/color]

[Michelangelo]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michelangelo,

All well and good but have NOT made any suggestions as to what we do about the problem NOW. What is your answer?[/size][/color]

As Freedman says:

The one thing we can do now to cope with all four of these trends is to create a tax that fixes the pump price at $3.50 to $4 a gallon - no matter where the OPEC price goes. Because if consumers know that the price of oil is never coming down, they will change their behavior. And when consumers change their behavior in a big way, G.M., Ford and DaimlerChrysler will change their cars in a big way, and it is cars and trucks that consume a vast majority of the world's oil.

And I will add to this by developing alternative fuels.

Plus, if gas is 4 bucks as gallon, some of JB's Texas oil will be worth putting back into the system...

In terms of NOW, it will take a few years.  But if we had kept the initiatives of the 70s in place, we would already be there....

[Michelangelo]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michelangelo,

All well and good but have NOT made any suggestions as to what we do about the problem NOW. What is your answer?

[/size][/color]

I just got back from Europe. In Spain, I saw thousands of motorcycles and thousands of small cars cuz their gas is taxed higher than ours and consumers choose to save money with fuel efficeincy with smaller vehicles.  It can happen here too...

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michelangelo,

 Nice thought but it is never going to fly with the American people and I ask AGAIN do you really trust our government to spend such vast ammounts of our money wisely and do you support a socialist state which is what you are suggesting?

 Please answer these DIRECT questions.
[/size][/color]

[Bruno]

Bruno,

 We are still at least 30 or more years away from fusion power, not that we should not research it but that is a very long term solution which I will never see.

 

Tiger, it is not because you are old and will never see the fusion power that it is need to forget these way... if i go remember, you have a young child... so investment is for the futur of your child...

Several gouverment don't take seriously the problem of energy... they only think about the next election... several people think the same because they will be not more living when these new technology will appear...

But now, it is the right time for start research... what will be the oil reserve or the level of polution in 30 year... stop think about yourself, think about the futur of your own child...

I cannot understand all these people who wish build a family but think only about themself... it is the responsability of each parent to help build a clean futur for his next generation... Yes, we are really in a egoistic world

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="3"] Ladies this has been fun but our little one is off with another family for the afternoon (we are now [/size][/color][color="#0000ff"][size="4"][color="blue"][size="3"]anchored at Harbor Island, Bahamas) so we are going diving out on the Devil's Backbone Reef.

 Later all
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[jb]

It's obvious to me that folks have short memories.  Everyone  remembers when the oil price went up, but do you recall the sidebar of  what was the American respnose?  The oil men of the USA went to  work and started to develop domestic production throughout the 1970's  and early 1980's.  We did a damn fine job of it too, right up to  the point where the Arabs saw real competition playing in what they  considered to be their own  private sandbox.  At which point,  they turned the oil valve onto full spiggot, and flooded the market  with super cheap oil.  A barrel of oil went from $30+ to less than  $10.  At that point it cost more to produce a barrel of domestic  crude than to buy from an Arab.  They effectively put a whole  industry out of business with that tactic.  The Arabs kept the  price artifically low until they were sure the American oil companies  were flat broke and no longer a threat to their monopoly.

Lovely people, those Arabs, almost as nice to us as the French.

Once they were assured of no more competition, guess what they did  next?  Ya think they might decide to F-up the American economy a  little?  Well, if you checked the "yes" box on that pop quiz, you  get a gold star to take home to mommy.

[Michelangelo]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Michelangelo,

Nice thought but it is never going to fly with the American people and I ask AGAIN do you really trust our government to spend such vast ammounts of our money wisely and do you support a socialist state which is what you are suggesting?

Please answer these DIRECT questions.
[/size][/color]

ah, you editid your post and added the stuff on socialism. That is why I did not see it--it was not there.

No, I thing capitalism is better than socialism.  But there is a balance or controls needed when one industry can dominate competition and ruin technical  advances, such as we have in energy.  And as I said before, the extra tax money should go directly into research on alternative fuels and making better use of fossil fuels.

[Michelangelo]

We can do better.

Read the editoral by Thomas Friendman called "A Green Dream In Texas" published  January 18, 2006 in the New York Times.  For now, here is an excerpt:


...Americans are starting to lead themselves. The most impressive project I've seen is by Texas Instruments, which is building a ''green'' chip factory here in Richardson, near Dallas. T.I. is keeping 1,000 high-tech jobs in Texas by building its newest facility -- to make wafers used in semiconductors -- in a cost-saving, hyper-efficient green manner.

...T.I. engineers and Mr. Lovins's team designed big water pipes with fewer elbows, which reduced friction loss and let them use smaller pumps that save energy. Various passive solar innovations were built in, including roofs that use a white reflective coating to reduce heat. These, together with innovations in how air is circulated, cooled and recovered naturally, reduced total heat so much that T.I. was able to get rid of one huge industrial air-conditioner. Almost all of the waste from the building construction is being recycled. The urinals are all waterless.

''Green building is not necessarily about producing your own power with windmills and solar panels. It's about addressing the consumption side with really creative design and engineering to eliminate waste and reduce energy usage -- it's the next industrial revolution,'' said Paul Westbrook, who oversees sustainable design for T.I. and helped turn T.I. leaders on to green building by taking them to his solar-powered home. ''Green building added some cost, but over all we built a green building for 30 percent less per square foot than our previous conventional facility.'' This is expected to cut utility costs by 20 percent and water usage by 35 percent.

Energy guzzling is for defeatists. Real Americans -- and real Texans -- build green.

[bbernard]

It's political sucide to mess with a man's SUV.

Which is why the US government will continue to kiss the collective Saudi butt far into the forseeable future.

Until the public in general stops mass buying of 8MPG vehicles there is no reason for the car companies or oil companies to offer a viable option. I would be very proud of this country if there was never another sale of such vehicles like Hummers and Excursions. But, thats just not going to happen is it?

Ken
[/quote]
There is more to kissing the Saudi's butts than oil! The Saudi's own an estimated 7% of all money in the US banking system not to mention their investments in US corporations including Defense contractors in the private sector. If we piss them off and they pull there funds POOF! the US is in an instant depression! It has become a lot more complex than just the issue of oil! That is why not only this Bush administration but all the administrations for the last 25 years and many more in the future will appear to treat the Saudi's humbly... Just my two cents! Research this and you will see the light on US foreign policy in regards to the Saudi's.

bbernard

[catzenmouse]

There is more to kissing the Saudi's butts than oil! The Saudi's own an estimated 7% of all money in the US banking system not to mention their investments in US corporations including Defense contractors in the private sector. If we piss them off and they pull there funds POOF! the US is in an instant depression! It has become a lot more complex than just the issue of oil! That is why not only this Bush administration but all the administrations for the last 25 years and many more in the future will appear to treat the Saudi's humbly... Just my two cents! Research this and you will see the light on US foreign policy in regards to the Saudi's.

bbernard

This has been caused by the very same over paying for oil and our not looking at ways to get off of oil. Where did all that money that they have re-invested come from? Why from us naturally.

Ken

[bbernard]

I agree completely, Ken! It is certainly a big mess and will take a long time to get out of! But like jb mentioned, the US government needs to get off their high horses and start working in a bi-partisan manner to get us out of this dependency on Arab oil. They can start by allowing the drilling in Alaska....   bbernard

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,

 AGAIN do you really trust our government to spend such vast ammounts of our money wisely?

Yes or No?

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,

 Imposing taxes to make people and industry is socialism and if you believe somehing like that will be allowed to happen here in America you are living in dream land.

 

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo,

AGAIN do you really trust our government to spend such vast ammounts of our money wisely?

Yes or No?

Again, as I said, it should be funneled directly into research. But yes, I trust government more than I do big oil.