Taking a chance and making a visit.

[cppd508]

Well, I do not know where to begin.  I do not post much in forums usually.  I did however post some questions on this site, and received some assistance, so I guess some sort of trip report is warranted.  Although, I am not sure my trip report will be a "normal" trip report, if there is such a thing.

This trip to Ukraine, was actually my first visit to anywhere in Europe.  I left Chicago on September 17, and had quite a strange way of journeying to Ukraine.  I flew into Amsterdam, took the bullet train from Amsterdam airport to the Frankfurt airport.  Stayed the night in a hotel near the Frankfurt airport, then caught a flight to Kiev in the morning. Spent the first day in Ukraine sitting at the Kiev train station waiting for an overnight train to Melitopol.  In total it took about three days of traveling time to get to my destination.  Some might think this was crazy, but I actually had valid reasons for making these choices.

I broke many of the regular talked about "rules" or commandments, that are expressed here on this site.  Again, there were valid personal reasons I did this.  The young woman I was meeting was from an agency that often is the subject of scorn, from many people.  It was not done this way because I wanted to spite anyone, or that I thought I knew better than anyone, it was just the way it worked out for me.  I used a service for arranging my transfers between the airport and train station in Kiev, and this did come at a higher cost than just utilizing a taxi, but for me the cost was worth the convenience and the feeling of security it provided me for my first visit.  The service also arranged my train tickets for me.  Again, it cost more, but for the convenience and sense of security it provided, it was worth it to me.

I arrived in Melitopol, on September 19, the day I was to meet the girl that I had been talking to for almost 9 months.  I again utilized the agency at a higher cost to arrange the flat I would stay in, for convenience and a sense of security.  After checking into the flat, the agency explained that the young woman I was meeting wanted to give me a chance to clean up, and get comfortable, and would come to pick me up at a time I felt would be convenient.  They also said the girl had asked if it would be OK to utilize an interpreter for the day.  I agreed and asked that I have an hour to clean up.  (I know many people at this point are thinking I am an all around sucker, but please wait for some of my explaining later in the trip report).

An hour later, the bell rang at the flat, and there was the young woman, I had spent the last 9 months corresponding with.  In person she was even more beautiful.  I am not going to lie, I quickly found myself at a loss for words, and all my senses froze.  She must have realized this, as she quickly gave me a warm hug, and said hello, bringing me back to my senses.  I invited her and the interpreter in, so I could put my shoes on.  Prior to leaving for my visit, I had explained to the young woman, I would likely be at a loss for ideas on things to do, as there is not much information out there on activities available in Melitopol.  So, she had come up with some ideas of activities for us to do during my visit.

For our first day together we went bowling with her cousin and his fiance.  Then walked through the park for a while, and finished the day off talking at a cafe. 

The second day, I was to meet her daughter who is 3.  She also worried that I would become bored with just seeing Melitopol, so we agreed we would go to Zaporozhye.  Her cousin was going with us, but he had some things to do for the first part of the day.  Which afford me the opportunity to spend time with her and her daughter at the small zoo in Zaporozhye.  After walking around the zoo, her daughter was becoming tired, as she missed her usual nap time.  We decided to rent a flat in Zaporozhye, so her daughter could have a nap, and that would give us the opportunity to do some things in Zaporozhye in the evening and the following day.  That evening we walked down Lenina Str. looking at the fountains.  When we returned to the flat I was informed that it would just be the three of us staying in flat, and that her cousin had another place to stay.  (I should mention this young woman is an honorable woman, and I am a gentleman, so I did not attempt to assume this meant anything, and nothing happened).

The next day we visited Khortytsya Island, and had lunch in a Ukrainian Cafeteria style restaurant.  After lunch we got out train tickets back to Melitopol, and returned there.  The train ride was nice as it was just the three of us, and her cousin had decided to stay in Zaporozhye.

On the fourth day she had some things to do during the day, and we had agreed to meet in the afternoon.  This worked out good because I caught I real bad cold, and I was concerned about spending time with her and her daughter, not wanting to get them sick.  She decided to stop by though, to check on me, and took me to the pharmacy to get some medicine for the cold. 

The fifth day, when she was on the way to meet me, she ran into a couple of her cousins, who wanted to me, so we walked around the park, went bowling, and then to a cafe.

The sixth day, I spent the evening with her and her daughter, and took them to the small circus.

The Seventh day, we I enjoyed the afternoon with her and her daughter in the park, then sitting at a cafe.  That evening her cousins had invited us to one of her cousin's house, for a Ukrainian barbecue.

I had to start heading home the evening of the eighth day, so we spent the day together walking around, then at a cafe.  After I checked out of the flat she waited with me at the train station with her daughter for my train.

My ninth day I spent walking around Kiev, alone, thinking of how pleasant it was to visit this wonderful young woman.

Now I promised earlier to do some explaining about my choices.  I know that I could have saved some money making different choices, but for me it was convenient and added a sense of security spending a little extra money.  My sharing my experience is not meant to offer an opinion on what things work best, such as WMVM, WMVO, or WOVO.  Or, even to say that which is better agency or free site correspondence.  My experience was mine.  What worked and did not work for me, might or might not work for someone else. 

I liked having the interpreter there the first day while me and the young woman found our bearings together.  It helped both of us feel a little more at ease with each other.  I am genuine in that I am seeking someone that I can connect with, and I was not there looking for just a good time.  IMHO, each person needs to decide what is important for their own self.  I feel lucky to have had this experience, and I look forward to visiting Ukraine again in the Spring.  Me and this young woman never went beyond sharing hugs to show affection for one another.  For some this might be a disappointment, for others it might seem pleasant.  It was just what seemed to work for us at the time.  We will continue to communicate, and with mutual agreement will let things continue to develop between us naturally.

I can say with certainty that the woman there are very beautiful.  The people all seemed helpful and kind, that I interacted with.  The only other thought of my trip that I can think to share in this trip report, is that everyone remember, that these girls might be beautiful, but they are also real people with real feelings.  Whether you are meeting many or one, please respect that she is a person with feelings.  Outside of that, I wish everyone luck and happiness in their search and their lives.  I will gladly also answer any questions anyone would like to ask me.

[ML]

Great story, good writing.  Thanks for sharing.

[Faux Pas]

cppd

You went against conventional wisdom for comfort. Many on their first trip do the same thing. You apparently have the money to do so and that makes you answerable to no one. I'd say you made the right choices as long as it is what you wanted and it worked for you.

Question just for clarity: You mention more than once "the young woman", what is her age and what is yours? I ask not to judge but reading between the lines of the interaction, the trip doesn't appear to be a romantic success. You don't come across as goo-goo eyed and she doesn't come across as laying on the affection.

Thanks for the trip report.

[cppd508]

Faux, again the age gap was pushing the conventional wisdom of many here.  She is 19, turning 20 in October, and I am 33.  My use of the term "young woman," was not really due to her age though.  It just seemed like a pleasant and respectable way of identifying her, as I did not think it was appropriate to use her name.

I am not sure how to respond to the romantic success portion, though.  I do not want to seem argumentative with your assessment, but I personally am not sure that I would say it wasn't a romantic success just yet.  You are correct, that I am not allowing myself to be goo-goo eyed, and that she was reserved with her laying on the affection.  Maybe because of my relatively low experience with international dating I am not seeing the same indications you are.  To me however I am looking at the situation as it is before me.  She had a child and married at a very young age, and the marriage became abusive, and lead to a divorce.  Due to this, I am looking at it will take additional time to develop the needed trust to fully find the answer to the question of romantic success.  However if your meaning of "romantic success," is regarding physical intimacy, then you are then correct that this trip did not afford "romantic success."

I do appreciate your post though, and that your questions and observations were done with respect.  Your post was valid, and did give me reason to think, which after all is the purpose of good forums.  :-)
 

[facetrock]

  cppd508 Nice report.

 There is nothing wrong with spending a few extra bucks on your first trip to the FSU to make things easier and more secure. Most of the experienced men here will actually suggest it, especially since you have never been to Europe before. My first trip I used an agency and looking back now it was a good decision
  What I dont understand is why you took all the train trips. I used to go to Dnep. in the past and the easiest way for me out of Chicago was like this. Chicago to Amsterdam, Amsterdam to Vienna, Vienna to Dnep. Melitopol is close to Dnep. and you could have had the agency arrange a car to meet you there and then drive you to Melitopol. Probably about a three hour drive. I think it would have been a wash as far as costs go too and it would have saved you two days of traveling.
 
  One thing that would concern me is the lack of romantic interest. From what I understand you never kissed her and to me that would have raised a huge red flag after spending a week with a woman. I understand how this can happen to a man on his first trip. We as men can be to much of a gentleman at times and leave a woman scratching her head wondering if we really like them. I have more experience than you and to be honest I would have bailed after the second day after no kiss. Dont be afraid to push the issue and dont feel bad for not being a little more aggressive. Most experienced men here had to learn that the hard way. Me included.

There is an old saying here. If a Russian women likes you, you will know it. If your still wondering three days later she most likely doesnt.
 
Her age would concern me. She had a kid when she was sixteen and missed alot of fun times and will miss alot more during her youth. I think thats something that can come back and haunt a relationship down the road. I've met alot of recently divorced women in their late twentys and early thirtys who were doing one hell of a job making up for lost time. Something to think about. There are a few other things in your trip report that would concern me but I will keep my trap shut for now. Not trying to start an arguement, just giving you my honest opinion

[Faux Pas]

cppd

Again, reading between the lines, you kinda, sorta remind me of me. You seem to be a risk taker. With great risk, can come great reward and also expected disappointment. Your story kind of lent itself that it wasn't a "romantic success". I was referring by romantic success more to the connection you made with this lady after you met, forgetting the long correspondence. Many times a long correspondence builds expectations and fantasy that quite frankly, real life just can't meet. Pay attention to how she interacted with you emotionally. It's been said many times, if she is into you, you will know it.

The lady is very young and although with a degree of "experience" hence the child, quite possibly not ready or familiar enough to "go all the way" so to speak. I do not mean to infer that getting laid would have been a success. Getting laid wouldn't really mean much of anything and is often overrated and misunderstood. I am referring here to the "emotional and intellectual" connection.

facetrock's post has a large degree merit. However, it could go either way and largely depends on the woman. Unlikely but possible, this young woman already knows what she wants and will not miss a misspent youth, focus on raising her child and fostering a happy marriage. You need to decide if you want to risk it should you continue the communication.

In any event, Good luck to you whatever you decide and however it works out

[Aloe]

What exactly is this "misspent youth" everyone is talking about? The fact that she had a baby and a husband instead of going out getting drunk and getting laid with random guys? Honestly, i think marriage is a lot better spent youth than the other option. I wish i "misspent" my youth paying more attention to school instead of "having fun".

[Aloe]

But somebody brought up a valid point, maybe you should have kissed her. Otherwise it may be unclear to her if you like her at all? If you like her, why did you never try to kiss her? Unless of course you are very unattractive, then it's definitely better to take it slow and work up her attraction to your personality enough to not mind your appearance. There is nothing worse than an unattractive guy planting a kiss on you when you don't expect it and don't know him well enough to be attracted to his personality. What i'm trying to say is, if you are average or better looking, 9 months talking should be sufficient to warm up enough for kisses at real meeting (unless of course there is no chemistry when you meet, and it doesn't sound like that was the case).

[Faux Pas]

What exactly is this "misspent youth" everyone is talking about? The fact that she had a baby and a husband instead of going out getting drunk and getting laid with random guys? Honestly, i think marriage is a lot better spent youth than the other option. I wish i "misspent" my youth paying more attention to school instead of "having fun".

Maybe if you were a little older you'd understand 

There is a window of peoples lives somewhere between 15 years of age to 25 that is or can be a time of exploration and learning about the world and themselves. Many times when events remove this from their lives, they seek it later in life when those circumstances change. Not everyone goes through it or does it but, it is a natural curiosity for many people. In short if you don't get an opportunity to enjoy your youth as a youth, the desire is there to enjoy it when you can

[cppd508]

Hey Facetrock.

Thanks for your post.  You were curios about the reason for having such a long journey.  I actually have family that works for an airline, and I was using a companion pass to get into Europe, as a way of saving some money.  The drawback to companion passes are that you are at the mercy of paying passengers when it comes to getting a seat.  The original plan was to fly direct Chicago to Frankfurt, then I had a paid ticket to fly from Frankfurt to Kiev.  In my excitement of actually going, broke a cardinal rule, and didn't check to see if any major events were going on in Germany.  Just my luck, the week I was leaving was the start of Oktoberfest, so had to make some last minute adjustments to make sure that I would make my connection in Frankfurt.

Honestly, just so you guys do not think that your observations are falling on deaf ears, I did feel something was a little miss, with the lack of much indication of physical affection from her.  Partly though, I do have to take some responsibility.  After spending a few days with her, I made it a point to talk with her that I felt a little confused how she felt about.  I explained to her that there were a couple of occasions where I had wanted to kiss her, but I didn't want her to feel rushed or pressured.  She something along the lines of liking me too, and that she appreciated I wasn't trying to rush her into anything, especially after her experiences with her ex.  So partly, you are correct that I was not really that aggressive with moving toward more physical contact.  Also, I will be honest.  I think part of me, was thinking this was a good defense of keeping myself from getting goo-goo eyed.  I am an honest person, and I know that if things would have become physical between us, I easily would have stopped thinking straight with her.  I definitely wanted to make sure I kept thinking with the right head.

I understand about the concern about the age.  Might be kind of interesting for some of the readers to know, I actually almost didn't read her first letter when I saw her age.  One of the things I think I have read in a few places on this site, and also from my own experience, is that it is pretty universal in this world, that younger people whether a woman or man, sometimes have difficulty with settling down.  I really do not know what made me change my mind, but I eventually read and responded to her letter.  At that stage, I was still in the WM stage, and so maybe I just foolishly let myself believe I had nothing to lose.  My correspondence stage had started back in January, and my plan was to keep a long correspondence stage prior to a visit.  Some people might think this was a foolish waste of time and money, and I respect their opinion, but me personally I wanted to use the time to weed out women that did not keep my interest, and also to try and learn as much as possible prior to a face to face.  She was the only one that was able to keep my interest.

I also know what you mean about the concern about the age and experience haunting the relationship later down the road.  I have also seen just like you, situations were a person tries later to make-up for things missed.  This is one of the reasons I tried to keep thinking with the right head during my visit.  I am not really looking to rush myself into something that I am later going to regret.

I had and still have some concerns about different things also. So please feel free to share, as I said in my reply to Faux, I do not mind sharing ideas as long as people are approaching things in a respectful manner.  I understand sometimes constructive criticism is good, and often offered by people for positive reasons.  It helps us learn.

An example of one of the concerns I had during my visit, that I will offer, and my thoughts about it now, was when were visited Zaporozhye.  My first concern was whether this was what some people call a "professional dater situation," and also a small concern that she was trusting me so soon with sharing a flat for the night, with just the three of us.  I think during the trip I was able to rule out the "professional dater" concern, as during the rest of the trip she was the one that was providing the ideas of things to do, and nothing seemed extreme or out of the ordinary.  The most expensive idea she had during the rest of the trip, was something we had actually talked about prior to meeting face to face, and that was taking her daughter to the small circus in Melitopol.  And that really did not cost much at all for the tickets for the three of us.

As for sharing the flat together, I really haven't been able to settle that concern for myself.  Maybe, she felt comfortable, because I am not a very intimidating looking person.  Maybe she was testing me, to see how I would respond to the situation.  It's not a huge concern, but I suppose it concerned me, in that if she was willing to try it with me, what about the next guy.  I mean, my concern I suppose is that I feel concerned that she would take such a risk with her 3 year old daughter there.  As I said though, maybe she sensed that I am not very intimidating or aggressive by that time.  

Right now my plan is to keep communicating for the next for the next couple of weeks, and see how that progresses now that we have met.  If it seems to continue in a positive direction, and feels like we are still developing a better connection with each other, than I will continue and visit her again.  If it seems flat and like it is not continuing to develop, then I will have to cut my losses, and chalk this first trip up to a great experience, and some lessons learned.

Anyways thanks for your post, and being respectful about your observations.  I appreciate you guys offering observations and suggestions, as well as raising questions for me to ask myself.      

[cppd508]

Faux,

Yes I am definitely a risk taker, and believe greater risks offer greater rewards and at times bigger disappointments.  I try to be calculated with the risks I take though.  Hence, my own personal reluctance at being aggressive at moving to more physical contact with her.  I just wanted to be sure that I understood your meaning of "romantic success."  For me, I really do feel that there was a good connection between us on this trip.  Especially toward the end were we seemed to feel a little more comfortable talking about how we felt with each other.  In that sense, I feel that the trip was a success "romantically."  She raised some valid things, that made me feel she genuine with what she was saying about how she felt.  As an example, she mentioned that I was the first foreign man she was meeting.  Although, some here might say they would find this suspect, with my interactions with other people in the city, and her cousins that I met, it did reasonable that not many foreigners have ventured there.  So their were some outside factors that led credibility to her words.  This is just one example, but a lot of the other things she discussed about her feelings, seemed to have some support outside of me just having to take her words at face value. 

I also agree with you that the misspent youth can go either way.  I might be a little foolish with my thoughts about it, but I also do not just shrug this concern off.  I believe that there things that can help to balance this risk, should things continue to progress between me and this woman.  I guess a simple way of saying it, is that I can balance this a little by making sure she has opportunities to step out of the responsibilities of parenthood a little more often.  I mean getting someone to watch her daughter, so the two of us can have some fun time together.  (Hopefully readers, understand, I am not talking about this being a every night thing, I just mean doing this a little more often than most).  Also, I am going to have to be secure enough with myself and her, that I give her opportunity to have her own friends, and to do things with her friends.  I think too often some people equate these relationships with the media hype that has been put out there, and sometimes think that these are mail-order brides, that a man chooses in a catalog, and the woman never leaves the house.

I think right now, my plan is to continue our communication, and give it a little more time to see how it progresses.  If it goes good, then on my next visit, I will feel better with being a little more aggressive, and hopefully she will feel a little more comfortable with this, knowing that I am not some foreigner just looking for a good time.  I suppose I am remaining cautiously optimistic about "romantic success," of this trip. 

Thank you though, for pointing out some things that I should be thinking about and looking at.

[cppd508]

Aloe,

I am not sure that I can answer your question about how attractive I am.  I am not trying to elusive, but I really do believe the saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  As an example, during this trip, I definitely saw why many men say the most beautiful women are from Russia and Eastern Europe.  There were very many quite attractive women just about everywhere you looked.  Yet, even with all these beautiful women everywhere, there was something about the woman I was with.  I loved looking at her, looking into her eyes, smiling at her, and seeing her smile back.  All the other women although attractive, just seemed to fade into the background when she was there.  So its something that can be difficult to quantify.

As for me, I think of myself as an average looking man.  I'm about average height, 5' 7".  Weight wise, I am slim, about 125 lbs.  I get many compliments from woman about my blue eyes.  And some women have give me compliments that I am an attractive man.  Some women though, might not give me a second glance, as I am not tall, or because I do not have bulging muscles like a professional bodybuilder.  So it is difficult to answer.

As for why I didn't try to kiss her.  I can offer a few reasons.  First, and probably the main reason, was my concern that if I might stop thinking with the right head if it got too physical on this visit.  As Faux pointed out, sometimes long correspondence can lead to unreasonable expectations or dreams, and I did not want myself falling into this trap.  Partly, because I was probably a little too focused on presenting myself as a gentleman.  I know there are a lot of people that equate foreign men in Eastern European countries to "sex tourists," so I was trying to keep myself distanced from being equated with that.  I suppose as a final reason, probably a little about my relative inexperience with women in general.  You probably are not familiar with my original story of how I ended up in this endeavor, so I will share a little here.  I was actually with my high school sweetheart for 16 years.  During that 16 years, there were occasional casual dates with other woman, none really leading beyond a second date, so for the 16 years it was pretty exclusive.  We got engaged, and as things were getting closer, she got cold feet, and decided she wanted to see other men.  So outside of this one woman, I really do not have much experience when it comes to dating.  So I am kind of back to learning as I go. ;-).

Thank you for your post, because it did make me think more about my reasons for not being more aggressive about the kiss.

[Aloe]

As for me, I think of myself as an average looking man.  I'm about average height, 5' 7".  Weight wise, I am slim, about 125 lbs.  I get many compliments from woman about my blue eyes.  And some women have give me compliments that I am an attractive man.  Some women though, might not give me a second glance, as I am not tall, or because I do not have bulging muscles like a professional bodybuilder.  So it is difficult to answer.

Uh oh. Usually when i wanna give a compliment and don't see anything to compliment on, i compliment the eyes, cuz almost everyone has nice eyes Of course i'm not saying that that is how other women felt, just an off topic 

About your concerns that she readily shared an apartment with you: She is 19, you have been talking for 9 months, i'm 90% sure that this is the first time ever for her to talk to someone that long on the net. I did that too, talk to someone for months and months and months, and i felt so super close to him, almost like married lol (but he turned out to be keyboard romeo, off topic again). But if he ever did come to visit, i'd imagine i'd feel very comfortable with him, so share apartment and bring daughter sounds normal in such circumstances. She probably hasn't touched the dirt of internet yet, that explains why she would spend 9 months just talking to you without any actions on your part. So the great part, she probably doesn't have any bitter experience with huge disappointments on the internet. She is lucky it was you and you actually came over and were such a gentleman. So by the time you came over, she probably already felt pretty safe and close to you. (i'm assuming you all talked thru instant messages and voice, maybe video, not just impersonal emails, then its still a stranger even after so long) That's why she didn't have a problem sharing an apartment with you and bringing her daughter. Now on the other hand, if she ever encounters the 99% of dirtbags in this search who are NOT serious about this search and are all blah blah instead of action, then she will be more cautious and cynical. But not yet

[Aloe]

I was actually with my high school sweetheart for 16 years.  During that 16 years, there were occasional casual dates with other woman, none really leading beyond a second date, so for the 16 years it was pretty exclusive.  We got engaged, and as things were getting closer, she got cold feet, and decided she wanted to see other men.  So outside of this one woman, I really do not have much experience when it comes to dating.  So I am kind of back to learning as I go. ;-).

I don't understand what you are saying. The paragraph above states that you were dating other women WHILE dating your sweetheart. Is that so?

[cppd508]

Aloe, during the 16 years, there were those times when both of us, would question whether we were what each other wanted and take a "breather."  It was never a situation where we did it behind each others' back.  We were always open and honest with each other about it until her last one, while we were engaged.  Hence, the reason for the final the split between us.  And, looking back on it, the last 11 of the 16 years was completely exclusive.  At least, as far as I know.  So like I said I am definitely a little behind on the learning curve of dating.  :-)

[Chelseaboy]

Cppd,

       How do you feel about this girl,now you've spent time with her ? Forget about age difference,and all the other little doubts you have lurking in the back of your mind.
If you think about her all the time,then tell her,and ask her how she feels about you,now she's met you.It's not about liking each other,it's whether you both really want to be with each other.
She will have some doubts about your real interest in her i suspect,because you never tried to kiss her,which is a shame because i think you're really into her.
If she tells you she feels the same way,then go back there as soon as you're able to,and give her that passionate kiss she'll be wanting.: ))

[cppd508]

Chelseaboy,

I really have strong feeling for both her and her daughter.  I have told her this many times, both when I was there face to face with her, and upon returning home.  I know what you mean about about not letting the concerns control the situation.  The concerns right now are not even close to any sort of stop signs for me.  They are just things that I like to keep in mind, to stay grounded in reality.  I have learned the lesson that there are no guarantees in life.  One day you are in the perfect relationship, and the next day life happens, and you are working through problems together.  As I mentioned earlier in the post right now my plan is to continue the communication with her, and go back for another visit in April, when I will have vacation time available again.  If I can find another way of getting time off work sooner, then I will definitely go back sooner. 

One thing I can say with all the good discussion that has been raised in the thread is that I have learned a lot, and gained some valuable insight from everyone.  It has also helped me think about some things in different ways.  As for the kiss, I am not overly concerned about that we did not have that opportunity on this trip.  Thinking back on the trip, maybe the kiss was meant to wait for the second trip.  I can say I was very happy during the trip, and I have a lot of great memories of the time we shared without the kiss.  So maybe our first kiss will be like wine, that it is actually aging and developing to perfection.  Or, maybe it will never happen.  Either way, I have no real regrets, great memories, and as a friend pointed out an experience that not many people will ever experience.  :-)

If the communication continues to develop between us though, I will try to take your advice and when I visit her again, try to give her the kiss she deserves, the one that will actually allow her to feel how I feel inside. ;-). 

Thanks for the post.  And thanks to everyone to the support.

[Daveman]

Nice report cppd508 (now there a heck of a name to try to remember  )

Yeah, the lady could be is almost assuredly wondering why you didn't put the move on her.  Also, I wouldn't waste a lot of time talking about "how do you feel?".. Of course you can if you want, but if you like her, then take the reins and plan the next visit, lead the relations..  she'll probably respond to you "better" this way.   

Just remember this... However you try to slice and dice it, she's still a 19yo girl.

Anyway, take it all FWIW
Dave

[cppd508]

Thanks for your post Daveman.  I am working on planning my next trip already.  It was in the works while I was still there in Ukraine.  Unfortunately for me, this was just a bad year with vacation.  I had to use a lot of my vacation time at the beginning of the year for funerals.  I am definitely going back as soon my vacation time becomes available next year, or sooner if I can find away to get some additional time off.  Hopefully, to visit the same girl, armed with a lot more knowledge, and feeling more comfortable with it not being my first time traveling to Europe, especially alone.  I really like the girl a lot. :-)

[ML]

As for sharing the flat together, I really haven't been able to settle that concern for myself.  Maybe, she felt comfortable, because I am not a very intimidating looking person.  Maybe she was testing me, to see how I would respond to the situation.  It's not a huge concern, but I suppose it concerned me, in that if she was willing to try it with me, what about the next guy.  I mean, my concern I suppose is that I feel concerned that she would take such a risk with her 3 year old daughter there.  As I said though, maybe she sensed that I am not very intimidating or aggressive by that time.  

The sharing the flat thingy is something that is entirely different in USA vs FSU (and maybe other parts of Europe).

Over the years that I have travelled to FSU (on business meetings), there have been several times when a out of town business woman would stay with me in my apartment, and I stayed in the apt of women also.

I think the difference comes from the situation in FSU (and even moreso in the past) where several generations of persons lived together in a very small space (by USA standards).  Sometimes there were even unrelated persons living with a family.  So this gives the people who grew up in that situation less anxiety about sharing small spaces.  They also get used to walking around in only panties and bra, or maybe very thin see-through nightgowns, and thinking not much about it.

Sharing an apartment in FSU does not mean there will be sex, unlike the typical situation in USA.

But on the  kissing thing . . . I am big on kissing and usually do it (maybe 85% of time) as we are finishing dessert on the first date.  Very nice if both have had a chocolate, then you can share the taste some more!!

[Faux Pas]

I'd caution you cppd to reading too much into the sharing the flat thing. Somewhat from the reasons ManLooking states, it's not as big a deal sharing space as perceived in the West but, it is still a caution.  To take it one farther and what I would conclude is, she was already at a comfort level with you enough to do so. Whether it is from your 9 months of communication or that she was comfortable enough after meeting you. If she didn't trust you she'd have never accompanied you to Zap. The cousin (she did seem to have a lot of cousins) going along would indicate she didn't trust you fully but likely felt good enough to go knowing a likely end result would be the sharing of the flat. She in ll likelihood had a plan B if she wasn't comfortable sharing a flat with you.

[cppd508]

Thanks ManLooking and Faux.  I didn't think about the cultural differences aspect I guess.  I think I might of confused you guys about what my concern was, though.  It was not the situation with us sharing the flat, but more the concern about the risk she was taking with her daughter there.  She clearly can make her own choices, and I haven't allowed myself to fall into the trap of thinking that she is exclusively just communicating with me.  When we shared the flat, I know myself, so I knew that she did not have anything to worry about.  I had no intention of trying anything at that point, and I also know that I wasn't going to do anything to harm either of them.  So, maybe its just I'm a jaded American from Chicago, that I felt a little concerned that its risky for a young woman to share a flat with someone she has only known in person for two days, with her child.  I guess perspective plays a role here.  I just would hate to see something bad happen to her or her daughter.  So, it wasn't the type of concern that raised alarms or red flags to our relationship, but more a concern about her and her daughters well-being and safety. 

Thanks for the posts though.  You guys did open my eyes to the cultural aspects of the situation, and helped me learn something new.

[JR]

Thanks for posting 508.

A precursor to a few thoughts: no one on this board knows more about your situation than you do.

Your age gap and range is VERY close to mine with my ex-wife.

Make sure you know and understand her expectations, dreams and desires before firm commitments. Not only to know them clearly and concisely but to have the ability to fullfill them. Failing to so will lead to the train wreck of your life.

Remember, you don't know her. YOU DON'T KNOW HER! She doesn't live next door to you with all the visibility that that brings.

Something that bothers me is that she was pregnant at 15-ish. That doesn't qualify as honorable to me. It doesn't mean I would automatically write her off but it would be a huge red flag to me in regards to her judgement making ability. So would the apartment sharing episode. I have a three year old daughter and there's no way in hell I would do what she did. She is young with a lot of mistakes to make ahead of her. Please make sure you're not one of her tutors.

You didn't kiss her? You wanted to...but? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!!? If you want to kiss a woman and she isn't running the other way just do it and let her react. She'll let you know how she feels about it. Don't give me this respect thing, she's not a virgin and you spent everyday together for a week yet neither of you could manage enough...."whatever" for a peck on the lips. Respect is not kissing her at the end of a so-so first date. Lack of interest is not kissing your man goodbye at the station. Just how I see it.

508, you seem to be trying to be honest and seeking some real advice here so I've tried to be honest without being too harsh. I think you are already goo-goo over this child.

Have met the parents?
What are they like?
Was she spoiled?
Was she rebellious?
Is she respectful towards them?
Why did she become pregnant at 15-ish?
Was she sexually active before that age?
Do have anything in common?
When you talk about the future do your paths converge?
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Above all else gaurd your heart...

[cppd508]

JR, thanks for your post.  Let me start by saying that first I understand many of the items you raised.  I have no problems with regards to that. 
     I do take issue though with the way you approach discussing this young woman.  First, this thread is not about moral rights and wrongs, or the choices her and me have made.  I agree with the idea that getting pregnant so young often is not a wise choice, because it does make life more complicated at an age where someone should be able to enjoy of life.  However, judging someone whom you do not know personally, and thinking that indicates that because she has already had a child, somehow equates that she does not deserve the same respect of a woman who is still a virgin is ridiculous.  That would be like saying that if a woman does not dress conservatively, it is alright to treat her like a prostitute.  She made a choice when she was 15-ish, she became pregnant, and married the father of her child.  She thought she was in love, like many young people.  She had her daughter, and thought she was working toward what a majority of woman pursue in their lives, regardless of age, a family.  Suddenly life happens, things change, and the husband becomes abusive.  She divorces to get herself and her daughter out of a bad situation, and takes responsibility for her daughter and herself.  Yet you judge her as being unhonorable.  It seems to me she has demonstrated more honor and taken more responsibility in her life than many people I know that are twice her age.  You can take this as I am goo-goo eyed over this girl, if it makes it easy to swallow; or, you can understand I am stating simple fact.  I do not mind people raising issues with me, my choices, or what I write here, as I have the ability to respond and defend myself, my choices, and my posts.
     As for the kissing.  I guess somehow this whole issue about not kissing on the first meeting has become more important to many readers than it has to me, the original poster.  So let me try and settle the issue of the not kissing finally.  I take full responsibility that a kiss was not shared.  I am very aware that regardless of what part of the world a man finds himself, it is still the norm, that the man initiates a first kiss.  Sure women might often drop those signals, signaling the man, that they should respond with initiating a kiss, but it is still the norm that it will be man to lean in and initiate it.  Everyone is right, I dropped the ball in this regard.  So I've learned and am ready to move on.
    I am not trying to begin an argument with you.  I do understand much of what you wrote, and I appreciate that you are trying to offer some advice and direction.  I can tell you with 100% certainty and honesty though, that I am approaching this with my eyes wide open.  To be perfectly frank, I know that if I never hear from her again, my life moves on.  It is a lesson I learned from my past experience.  I can also say, I know what you mean about not knowing her.  I can say though, I think you should realize that even if I woman lives next door, or even shares the same bed as you, you will never really know her.  Not only are woman complex, but people change.  It is why the relationships that always seem to work, are the ones, where the couple understands they need to continually work toward learning and understanding each other.  Relationships where you become comfortable, and think you have someone figured out is where you are heading for that train wreck you mention.  As for the answers to the questions you raised at the end of your post, I know some of those answers, others might be learned in time; regardless, none of them can give the answer only time can reveal; and, that is, are me and this woman compatible and a good match.  I approach this knowing that there is a chance things may not work.  However, that is the way you need to approach any relationship.  If you are not, you are either sitting home alone, or just going out drinking with your buddies.  When it comes to relations between men and women there is always this risk.
    I want to apologize if my post seems abrasive.  I appreciate that your intention is to help, but I did take some offense to you casting judgments on another person, when the other person is not afforded opportunity to respond, or when the judgment seems misguided.  I would feel this way even if I did not know the person who was being judged.  Please, also know that I am not trying to portray myself as a saint or better than anyone, with my defense of this woman.  I am not a saint, and have plenty of my own faults.  I am pretty sure you a decent person, so it is not intended as a personal attack toward you, either. 

[JR]

  First, this thread is not about moral rights and wrongs, or the choices her and me have made.
This thread is about where ever people take it. Each person will respond to what you write based upon their own unique make up.

  I agree with the idea that getting pregnant so young often is not a wise choice 
 However, judging someone whom you do not know personally, and thinking that indicates that because she has already had a child, somehow equates that she does not deserve the same respect of a woman who is still a virgin is ridiculous.  
I know nothing about you or the young woman in question. All any of us knows is what you've written. I can't and don't pass judgement on either of you. I can however pass judgement upon the situtations you've described.
 
Yet you judge her as being unhonorable.
Again, I do not judge her, the father or you. But in my book becoming pregnant at 15 does not qualify as honorable. (for the mother or father) But such actions do qualify as being young and niave or stupid.
     
    I want to apologize if my post seems abrasive. 
It doesn't.

 I appreciate that your intention is to help, but I did take some offense to you casting judgments on another person, when the other person is not afforded opportunity to respond, or when the judgment seems misguided. 
You are responding and she is certainly welcome to join the board and respond for herself, thought I'd strongly advice against that if you wish to continue having a relationship with her. If my judgement seems misguided you may want to look closer at what information you present, it is all we have to go on.

  I am pretty sure you a decent person, so it is not intended as a personal attack toward you, either. 

The feeling is mutual.