Hunting

[I/O]

To the OP: Yes, you have it about right. Perhaps the hunting example was not the best choice, Jack wants a meal, Aloe wants your balls whilst GQ and Boethius want to extend the argument into other spheres. Quite funny really as some of the eastern fauna makes for quite good "eating"  .

As for the rest of it, oh my, what a lot of hair splitting BS. IMO (and personal experience) hunting in this day and age is more about the challenge of being able to do something which requires extreme precision, well and humanely, than it is about gathering bodily sustenance.

As a teenager in the bush, I shot probably 20-30 kangaroos each of 1 or 2 mornings and evenings per week for 6 months of the year. It was selective shooting, it was about preservation of crops and it had nothing directly to do with food. Indirectly yes, in so far as, they eat the crop, we have nothing to sell, hence no money and no food if you take it to extremes. One may call that hunting (technically) but for us it was a routine chore. The rare species were avoided whilst the strains in almost plague proportions were targeted. As for the claim of it taking more than one shot, sorry but that is idiots who couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a bucket full of wheat.

I would require a second shot maybe once in 300 if that. We were good, we got close, we knew what we were doing and for the most part, we didn't miss. Brothers and I would have hammered each other for poor form and waste if we started to miss. It was pride in ones job, albeit not a very pleasant job.

Hunting was a very nother thing. Foxes were my focus. They were tricky, cunning, required patience, precision rifles, time and a whole host of other things, particularly trying to get them out of grass country at 300 plus yards with a .17. That was hunting, sport, challenge, whatever you like to call it and it came after the other thing, when the work was done.

I'd wager having brought down as many live animals as most and I have NEVER ever eaten feral meat and have no intention of doing so. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much good farmed meat available at the local butchers.

[GQBlues]

In Northern New England...

That's exactly my point Tim. The biosystem is out of balance. Why? because folks hunted the deer's natural predators. This isn't about 'food' like many would have you believe. Here's a video of a good example of hunters hunting for meat. You need to sign in as it is of adult content.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DaYTmB1Pe-h8  "Bear Shot in the Face with a Bow and Arrow". I'm certain Boethius can re-assure you it didn't hurt the bear.

Now if it's about curtailing the deer population and folks hunting for food then harvest the fawn and slaugther it humanely. Then sell the meat to these so-called 'hunting for food' hunters and see how far that would go.

People like Jack doesn't hunt for food. I could care less what he says. 'extracted'

Hunters hunt because they freakin' enjoy it.

[Boethius]

GQ, that is a really unwarranted personal attack, and not the first on this thread.  Knock it off.

I/O, my cousin, who is a beef farmer, hunts moose solely for the meat.  He kills coyotes and boars to protect his livestock and land.  The boars, he will eat as well, but killing them is a necessity.

My father used to hunt as a kid.  They were dirt poor, and he'd hunt animals for their pelts, which he'd sell to buy clothes for the entire family (9 in total).  

[Chicagoguy]

Can we begin a new forum with the topic of Hunting ??

[GQBlues]

GQ, that is a really unwarranted personal attack, and not the first on this thread.  Knock it off.

Done 

[Shostakovich]

If anyone wants Shosty's opinion, which I know you don't ...

In summary:

1. Excepting a few loose ends in Montana, Arkansas and the Apalachians most hunt for fun.
2. Farmed animals suffer just as much or more - at least a wild animal has had a life in nature.

Therefore where you get your meat is irrelevant - innocent animals die with horrible pain each way.  Perhaps the wild animal has the advantage, at least it had the experience of a life in nature.

But ...

Vegetarians who consume no animal products note: every step you take destroys something.  The Patagonia parka you wear with pride was made in a plant, the plant was created on a ground that destroyed habitat, it is based on fabric spun in another plant from oil that destroyed more habit, materials need to be trucked around, etc.  Many animals die to create a nice Patagonia shell.  I am certain the Andrew Marc leather coat I have has not resulted in as much death overall.  Destruction inheres in Creation and the innocent animal is not innocent, it will maul you without a thought when it wants to.

The question here is one of life philosophy: is your experience and fun in life (i.e. chasing FSU women) worth the cost?  How many of the weak should be sacrificed that the strong flourish?  It is not just a question of animals.  Ahimsa - the minimization of violence, or shall it be like the tale of the princes and the pea?

People answer with their actions, guess which wins?

[Misha]

'extracted'
$27.00 PLUS the $2.00 the bell boy kept as 'tip' is $29.00

You are counting money twice. The bell boy kept the $2 tip out of the $27 so it should not be added to the $27  Of the 8 bills in circulation, the motel kept the 3 tens, the bell boy kept 2 and the hunters kept 1 each for a total of 8.

[GQBlues]

There never was a missing dollar Misha and the 'addition' to the equation was designed to make the wordplay complete.

The easiest equatative procedure would have been to divide all circulation by 3, which in that exercise, was the '3' hunters. Cost of hotel, the tip, and then the final change, $8.33, $0.67, $1.00 respectively. The total would've been a 'third' which is the initial $10.00/EA x 3 is $30.00. No dollar missing.

But yes, using the word 'plus' was the key word.

In the first exercise, 150 birds perched upon the fence, was recognizing a 'key word', and in that exercise it would be the 'missing' key word. A total of 2 birds 'left.

[I/O]

I/O, my cousin, who is a beef farmer, hunts moose solely for the meat.

Sure, there is always the hunting for the more exotic foods / meats etc but is it the norm?

The boars, he will eat as well

Some here do also but it isn't my taste. I can dig in the garden if I want worms.

My father used to hunt as a kid.  They were dirt poor, and he'd hunt animals for their pelts, which he'd sell to buy clothes for the entire family (9 in total).

As did I with foxes but commercial fur hunting is not what this discussion is about.

[ECOCKS]

To all those who enjoy hunting and/or support hunters, more power to you. If you are a hunter, please be sure to donate the meat you don't eat to the local food bank because it is indeed wasteful if you're simply taking a trophy and leaving the meat to spoil.

To those who don't enjoy it, but understand it is no different than your preference for flower arranging, staying non-committal on the topic, I simply love your newest arrangements and wish you the best with that newest vase and this season's blooms.

For those who eat meat, yet find hunters and hunting offensive and also feel a need to express their opinion in an effort to get others to ignore their lack of ability and insecurity, ah well no one of importance really gives a damn what you think anyway.

For those of you who are not meat eaters and are troubled by the process, please give a little thought to how those who believe life begins in the womb feel when we hear of another abortion being performed. You have my sympathy even though I will respect your belief while continuing to hunt and trying not to discuss it in front of you.

[Aloe]

Aloe, tigers and leopards are not hunted.  

And who made that tiger fur carpet in the picture i posted then?

Illegal poaching — hunting tigers in Russia was banned in 1947 but with the dissolution of the Soviet Union illegal hunting has been fueled by demand from across the borders in China and Korea.


By the 1940s, hunting had driven the Amur tiger to the brink of extinction, with no more than 40 individuals remaining in the wild.

The subspecies was saved by Russia becoming the first country in the world to grant the tiger full protection – and also by the Cold War, which saw the tiger's forest home completely closed off to most people.

By the 1980s, the population had increased to around 500. Despite an increase in poaching following the collapse of the Soviet empire, continued conservation and antipoaching efforts by many partners, including WWF, have helped keep the population relatively stable at around 450 individuals.

So it's not just habitat, it is also hunting. People also hunt the prey of the tigers.

There are hunderds of thousands animals, being hunted for their precious fur, for their ivory, for whatever reason not related to food at all. Every year. If you count fish, the number is probably millions. And no, i only eat farmed fish and no caviar  

[josey wales]

The more serious violation is not taking the animals life away, but rather taking away the right to hunt.  For if this right is taken away, what's next?  The right to drive vehicles with V8s?  

But in the end, what settles it for me is what is written in Genesis 1:26:  "...And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

I can't wait for opening season!

[Shostakovich]

All get eaten at some point: by teeth, employers, religions or governments.

[Ade]

The more serious violation is not taking the animals life away, but rather taking away the right to hunt.  For if this right is taken away, what's next?  The right to drive vehicles with V8s?  

But in the end, what settles it for me is what is written in Genesis 1:26:  "...And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

I can't wait for opening season!

Um. I hope you aren't a total literalist as there is some awful sh!t in that bible of yours and I certainly wouldn't use it as a guiding light for anything.

And, FWIW, generally I'm of the opinion that just because you can do something, it doesn't necessarily mean that you should; doing the school run in a V8 is more than just unnecessary excessiveness, it's idiotic, especially as we know without a doubt that fossil fuels are a diminishing resource and they pollute.

Edit
Just to clarify my stance on hunting; like most things in this world, it can be done properly in a controlled fashion to minimise abuse and harm or... not. For instance, in Norway, proficiency tests are required to help ensure that incompetent people don't cause excessive suffering and leave wounded animals limping around the woods. It's not quick or simple; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway#For_hunting
Then there are other countries that allow any idiot to buy a gun without reasonable checks and controls so they can traipse through the woods, willy nilly killing, or probably more often wounding, anything that moves causing a lot of suffering in the process.

I don't think we have some sort of innate right to cause suffering to other living things. However, we do have as much right as other animals to hunt for food or, as is the case in a lot of areas, to use hunting as a form of necessary population control. But, as a sentient species, we have a responsibility to do these things as humanely as we possibly can.

[I/O]

All get eaten at some point: by teeth, employers, religions or governments.

The bear growled, "what do you want"? The hunter replied "only a fur coat". The bear growled "I only want something to eat". A compromise was struck. A few minutes later the bear stood up alone as both had gotten what they wanted.

[facetrock]

  Its easy to be against hunting but in todays America its actually needed in some cases, especially deer. They can and do overpopulate and will eat themselves out of house and home. They dont have the natural predators anymore and no one around here wants to reintroduce grizzly bears and mountain lions. They have a bad habit of eating people and wont do good in a densely populated area. Wolves would control them to a point but not completly and they quickly learn its easier to take the neighbors cow. They will also kill domesticated dogs for sport.

  Man is a predator. Look where our eyes are placed in our head. Right up front like all other meat eating predators. The preys eyes are placed more to the side for better all around vision.
 
  One thing is for sure. Hunters(not poachers and there is a difference) are responsible conserving more land in the USA than anyone. Teddy Roosevelt was an avid hunter and created the national park system. The money in permits, stamps and licenses go to research and conservation and law enforcement to stop poaching. Not to mention all the groups like Ducks Unlimited which has conserved over 6 million acres of wetlands and is almost all hunters. Then there is the National Wild Turkey Federation, Pheasants Forever, Quail Unlimited etc. etc.

 I really believe there is far more wildlife in America because of hunters. Hunters give game animals an economic value. Without economic value most big game animals would have been considered nothing but pests and exterminated decades ago. In many cases that almost happened. The majority of the first conservationists were hunters.

  Now as far as food we would survive without hunting but its those thousands of years of evolution that makes us want to hunt. Anyone ever take someone hunting who has never tried it before? I have and its amazing to see their reaction when they actually do it. Watching age old instinct resurface in someone is quite a trip.

[JR]

2. Farmed animals suffer just as much or more - at least a wild animal has had a life in nature.

Therefore where you get your meat is irrelevant - innocent animals die with horrible pain each way.  Perhaps the wild animal has the advantage, at least it had the experience of a life in nature.

But ...

Vegetarians who consume no animal products note: every step you take destroys something.  The Patagonia parka you wear with pride was made in a plant, the plant was created on a ground that destroyed habitat, it is based on fabric spun in another plant from oil that destroyed more habit, materials need to be trucked around, etc.  Many animals die to create a nice Patagonia shell.  I am certain the Andrew Marc leather coat I have has not resulted in as much death overall.  Destruction inheres in Creation and the innocent animal is not innocent, it will maul you without a thought when it wants to.

Stop making sense Shosty. I think of this same arguement all the time when I see someone driving around in their brand new, gas guzzling air hauler with a "Vegetarian, don't eat meat, it's cruel" bumper sticker pulling into the driveway of their grossly overbuilt home. When you start to think about all that must go into the making of that life style it kinda makes you want to shout "hypocrite!!!!"

[Shostakovich]

Stop making sense Shosty. I think of this same argument all the time when I see someone driving around in their brand new, gas guzzling air hauler with a "Vegetarian, don't eat meat, it's cruel" bumper sticker pulling into the driveway of their grossly overbuilt home. When you start to think about all that must go into the making of that life style it kinda makes you want to shout "hypocrite!!!!"

Yes, a consistent ethical stance might be nice.  Unfortunately, these issues have become the province of emotional response.  Pick your flavor: farmed animals living in excrement, African aids babies, Deer used as target practice, compromise of wetlands so that some old-fart can get a semblance of lost youth with a new Camaro SS, etc. ad infinitum ...

Of course the best way to minimize the fall your footsteps make is to turn the Deer bullet back upon yourself.  There is the crux of this biscuit: the general confusion about what to do with life creates a vacuum that must be filled; with girls, steaks, acceleration, travel, ball games --- etc.  The most important things are the ones least discussed.

 

[I/O]

The most important things are the ones least discussed.

In the RWD contest that would be........................getting laid onto on foreign turf or getting a foreign lay on onto your turf?

[Nat]

Aloe, I agree that hunting has to be prohibited, but except for hunting for food. I mean, yes, I also don't understand people how can kill an animal with their own hands/guns just for fun/food, and I definitely wouldn't marry such man, but hunting for food - it's at least understandable. But hunting wolfs, big cats and other non-edible animals just for fun should be prohibited. We're not savages and we shouldn't encourage such ways of "entertainment".
For those who thinks people can hunt animals for fun because animals hunt each other (for food, btw) - then take off your clothes, because animals don't wear clothes

[FredC]

Why can't some people see that this isn't just black and white......There are many shades of gray. Someone can hunt for something to eat, to be out in nature, and maybe they even do enjoy the kill as well, though they may not want to admit it, after all I'm sure there is some kind of primal need being felt. Just because you can go buy meat in the store doesn't mean that you can't also hunt to eat.

[Shostakovich]

In the RWD contest that would be........................getting laid onto on foreign turf or getting a foreign lay on onto your turf?

All this talk of laying around makes Shosty, ... really tired.

[SMS60]

Well, we are in the middle of deer season in most states. Good opportunity for members to stock their meat freezer with tasty food, better than what you can buy at Walmart.

Living in the country I usually buy a deer tag each year. I always have the chance to plug a buck at some point in the season. Lots of mornings and evenings they will appear along the tree lines around the house. Always have the trusty 12 gauge slug gun or 30-30 rifle sitting close by. It must be a good size buck before I take aim ( more meat). Most seasons I will fill the tag. Then take it to a near by meat processor. Can usually get around 100 pounds of various steaks, burgers and salomi out of it. Deer salomi is fantastic. Very tasty. All for about $150.00 dollars.

A couple of years ago was an ordeal. The most work I had to do to bag one. It was not a clean kill. I shot it at about 75 yards and missed the heart and lung area. My shot hit in the stomach area. When it was hit it went down then got back up and bolted into the woods. I spent about an hour tracking it and found it about a half mile away. Must have bleed to death. Had to use a 4 wheeler to pull it out of the brush. Gutted it on the spot and finally got it to the processor.

This is an exception. Most time they are dropped in their tracks.

Happy hunting.

[ECOCKS]

Good recovery.

[Misha]

But hunting wolfs, big cats and other non-edible animals just for fun should be prohibited. We're not savages and we shouldn't encourage such ways of "entertainment".

Keeping a fear of humans in predators is not necessarily a bad thing. Let's take the case of the woman who was killed by coyotes earlier this year: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-singer-killed-by-coyotes/article1341376/.

Also, deer and pretty much all other ungulates will have more offspring that can survive in the long run. Eventually, there will be too many and they will either starve or dies of epidemics