Hunting

[ECOCKS]

  Nat if you spent a summer with Ed out in Idaho and had the chance to see how nature really works your attitude would change. Maybe you could come to where I live. I would send you out bow hunting for deer with my daughter.
  Like I said before. You live in a city surrounded by concrete buildings and asphalt parking lots. Your perception of nature is actually normal for someone from your enviroment. Very common.

  One more thing Nat. Most people dont hunt in Ukraine. Millions of people hunt in America. We have far more wildlife than Ukraine. Not even close in my opinion. Why is that? Do you know the answer?

LOL - yes they "hunt" in Ukraine. In the time I was there the only time I ever heard of anyone actually hitting anything was when the #2 guy in the Party of Regions was "accidentally" shot in the head while stopped on a roadside during a wolf hunt with 7 other guys. The animals are safe in Ukraine these days, any depopulation was caused decades ago by starving citizens and the toxic environment.

[GQBlues]

Can't say I see many contralateral (opposite side) eyes among the above 9 . On the other hand, ipsilateral (same side) eyes have a much better perception of dephth (distance), rather important for a successful hunter I'd wager .

Nope, not from those specimens. They've evolved to successful predators indeed...but I think you're being a bit too selective, no? The ones I've referred to, and are considered so successful they hardly the need to evolve much for millions of years are...commonly referred to as Apex Predators. Predators that literally have no natural predators in it's ecosystems. unlike lions (hyenas, etc...), wolves ( bears vis-a-vis), etc...

Interesting to note... hipoppotamus considered as one of the deadliest animal in wild, which also have contralateral eyes, co-exist quite nicely with crocodiles.

[Boethius]

LOL - yes they "hunt" in Ukraine. In the time I was there the only time I ever heard of anyone actually hitting anything was when the #2 guy in the Party of Regions was "accidentally" shot in the head while stopped on a roadside during a wolf hunt with 7 other guys. The animals are safe in Ukraine these days, any depopulation was caused decades ago by starving citizens and the toxic environment.

Guns ownership was extremely restricted in Ukraine during Soviet times (for obvious reasons), so there is no longer is a hunting culture.  Peasants used to go hunting from time to time, but say 12 of them went out.  Only 2 in the party would actually own guns.

[facetrock]

GQ. If man was never a predator where does the urge to hunt come from? If we were never a predator we would happily farm our land and plant gardens and never really give a thought to hunting. So what is it that makes us want to hunt. Is it some age old habit we cant get out of our DNA or are we taught to hunt? 

[Jooky]

Sorry GQ, you are so far out of your range of knowledge on this one, it's silly.

Whatever source you googled that tells you humans are not considered predators is simply wrong. Humans are a top level (apex) predator. Look it up in a valid source.

[Aloe]

To whoever split this topic: IMO it would be polite to mention in the very first post that this topic is split from another topic, otherwise i look like a crazy lady popping out random topics Not nice

[Aloe]

  Nat your veiws on hunting is very common for people  that grew up in bigger cities. You live in a very structured world. Nature is not so structured. When a species has the oppurtunity to overpopulate it will. Its happened in the USA with deer. In Africa with elephants. They still cull them in places but not as much as they used too for one reason. They let hunters do it for them and charge them about 25k per animal for the privledge. The governments get the money, the locals get the meat and the forest doesnt get destroyed. Works for everyone.

WHAT?! You have to pay 25 thousand dollars for each animal you kill? and after that someone dares to mention that they hunt for food??? Let's count how much food you can buy for 25k

[facetrock]

  The point is Aloe is that if you couldnt get 25k to kill an elephant the locals would just as soon see them all eradicated. They would have no value and be considered pests. Believe it or not but that 25k price tag has saved elephants from going extinct in many places in Africa.
  It has nothing to do with food Aloe. Its the value of the elephant that keeps the locals from killing all of them.

[GQBlues]

Sorry GQ, you are so far out of your range of knowledge on this one, it's silly.

Whatever source you googled that tells you humans are not considered predators is simply wrong. Humans are a top level (apex) predator. Look it up in a valid source.

Googled? Is that what you do? There's a bit of venom on that post I hope the bite is bigger than the bark Jooky...LOL. Go ahead, post your wiki page...

[tim 360]

Nope, not from those specimens. They've evolved to successful predators indeed...but I think you're being a bit too selective, no? The ones I've referred to, and are considered so successful they hardly the need to evolve much for millions of years are...commonly referred to as Apex Predators. Predators that literally have no natural predators in it's ecosystems. unlike lions (hyenas, etc...), wolves ( bears vis-a-vis), etc...

Interesting to note... hipoppotamus considered as one of the deadliest animal in wild, which also have contralateral eyes, co-exist quite nicely with crocodiles.

GQ,  I would have to say that Humans are the Apex predator.  Predator: An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.  We have fit that suit quite well since the New Stone Age and before that.

Facetrock,  megafauna in North America  went extinct for reasons other than man's hunting although our hunting did not help.   Some "purists" like to claim man overkilled them but not mathematically possible.  Mommoth and mastadon kill sites have been found but not for any other megafauna.  The megafauna had been dwindling and dying out for thousands of years.  12,900 years ago some event did drastically reduce their numbers.  Whether it was viral, climate or cosmic or all three it wiped most of them out very quickly along with the Clovis people.

In the 1830's there were 60 to 80 million bison on the American Plains and within a few decades there were maybe a couple thousand left as Americans hunted them for their hides and left the meat to rot to the great displeasure of the Indians; who only killed maybe about 1/2 million a year and used the whole animal for food, clothing, tools, etc.  Are humans predators?  You bet.

[GQBlues]

GQ,  I would have to say that Humans are the Apex predator.  Predator: An organism that lives by preying on other organisms.  We have fit that suit quite well since the New Stone Age and before that.

Tim-

In that context then horses, cows, chickens, rabbits...et al are predators as well (?). If so, then I submit humans to be likewise.

[tim 360]

Tim-

In the context, then horses, cows, chickens, rabbits...et al are predators as well (?). If so, then I submit humans to be likewise.

Gq,  You are full of fun today.   Humans are the Global Apex Predator.  We eat what we want to eat whether we hunt it, farm raise it or grow it or buy it nicely packaged in the store.  Horses and cows and bunnies are vegetarians their diet being grasses and grains and don't eat other mammals or fish.  On the African savannah the lion would be the Apex predator.  In the oceans, the Orca.  In some places the Grizzly Bear or Polar Bear is the top predator.  Yet if man decides to kill either he is the top predator and likely would prevail.  Humans are the gold standard of Apex predators on earth.

Yet...Seed consumption is also considered predation because the entire living embryo of a plant is destroyed.  So if your bunnies, cows and horses eat any seeds--they too could be considered predators.

[GQBlues]

GQ. If man was never a predator where does the urge to hunt come from?

Humans evolved to create tools, which led to weaponry, etc... The evolution did not take place because we had the urge to hunt nor because we are naturally predatory. Our biological makeshift didn't evolved to take flight, run faster, developed gills to swim underwater, get much stronger, developed claws and fangs, keener sense of sight, smell, and hearing, etc..but rather we developed  larger brains. We didn't evolved to such so we can be better hunters but rather so we can preserve our species better. e.g. short gestation periods amongst animals, or multiple birthing.... There are evidences found that suggests earlier varying specimens of humans were decimated because of predation - suggesting 'we' were naturally prey animals.

As a matter of fact, earlier versions of Homo Erectus, or those who look like one, are sighted in the streets of Russia and Ukraine even today.

If we were never a predator we would happily farm our land and plant gardens and never really give a thought to hunting. So what is it that makes us want to hunt. Is it some age old habit we cant get out of our DNA or are we taught to hunt?  

Interesting you'd note that.

Farming/agriculture is a prime innovation that made 'man' succeed throughout its evolutionary life, not its ability to hunt. Ancient communities of humans that understood farming and agriculture thrived much better than those who simple relied to 'kill' to eat.

In varying social degree and ways, that is still true today.

Man reigns supreme over its environment today not because he's a predator and a hunter, but because of his ability to adapt, innovate to better preserve his kind because he always was a 'prey' animal.

[kievstar]

I have gone bird hunting numerous times in Ukraine.  Had good results.  Shot a boar once as well from the back of a moving truck as well.  Was it for fun - yes it was.  But everything was eaten as well and clean shots.  

Not sure the exact % but I have met many men in Ukraine who own guns (more than 50%).  My wifes father has a small armory.    

Aloe is correct most hunters do it for sport.  But I like the RW wearing the expensive boots and fur coats made from 100% animal.  

[tim 360]

Humans evolved to create tools, which led to weaponry, etc... The evolution did not take place because we had the urge to hunt nor because we are naturally predatory. Our biological makeshift didn't evolved to take flight, run faster, developed gills to swim underwater, get much stronger, developed claws and fangs, keener sense of sight, smell, and hearing, etc..but rather we developed  larger brains. We didn't evolved to such so we can be better hunters but rather so we can preserve our species better. e.g. short gestation periods amongst animals, or multiple birthing.... There are evidences found that suggests earlier varying specimens of humans were decimated because of predation - suggesting 'we' were naturally prey animals.

As a matter of fact, earlier Homo Erectus, or those who look like one, are sighted in the streets of Russia and Ukraine even today.

Interesting you'd note that.

Farming/agriculture is a prime innovation that made 'man' succeed throughout its evolutionary life, not its ability to hunt. Ancient communities of humans that understood farming and agriculture thrived much better than those who simple relied to 'kill' to eat.

In varying social degree and ways, that is still true today.

Man reigns supreme over its environment today not because he's a predator and a hunter, but because of his ability to adapt, innovate to better preserve his kind because he always was a 'prey' animal.

It's all in the brain...perfect GQ.  Hunting was a tough way to live.  But farming was much better for many reasons.

[GQBlues]

Yet...Seed consumption is also considered predation because the entire living embryo of a plant is destroyed.  So if your bunnies, cows and horses eat any seeds--they too could be considered predators.

That's what I meant above, Tim. The simple definition most dictionary give can easily lead one astray. Almost all organism 'eat' other organism to survive. There are 'plants' that 'kill' other species of plants not because they 'eat' them, but rather kills them to preserve their kind. Then there are plants that 'eat' flesh as well.

[Son of Clyde]

What do hunters say to each other anyway? "Lets go out this weekend and kill some animals that never did us any harm." This is partly why I gave up beef and pork in 1982. I went to a county fair and saw all these animals that were being shown as 4-H projects only to end up on someone's dinner table. I wish I could give up chicken, turkey and fish but I need to eat something. A fellow employee told the office that she was going to butcher some hogs over the weekend. Like I really care. Everyone should read Animal Farm sometime.

[Jooky]

Googled? Is that what you do?

I took classes on the subjects being discussed at the University level. You clearly haven't.

Humans are the Global Apex Predator.

That's exactly right. (Unless you've been taking the Michael Moore crash course in the Circle of Life and Evolution).

[ECOCKS]

What do hunters say to each other anyway? "Lets go out this weekend and kill some animals that never did us any harm." This is partly why I gave up beef and pork in 1982. I went to a county fair and saw all these animals that were being shown as 4-H projects only to end up on someone's dinner table. I wish I could give up chicken, turkey and fish but I need to eat something. A fellow employee told the office that she was going to butcher some hogs over the weekend. Like I really care. Everyone should read Animal Farm sometime.

Come on Larry, most of the time they say, "Hey I have my tag, let's go check out the area around the breraks on the river!". Then if they get lucky they are figuring out how to process it and determine how many steaks, roasts, sausages and ground packages to do. Those that eat meat eat it, those that don't give it to their friends and homeless programs, food banks and the like. The only guys I know who leave rotting meat at the scene are those hunting wolves.

I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians or even the tree-huggers. My wife eats fish but other than that is a vegetarian who avoids milk and cheese. She has no problem with hunting or the opening of our BBQ pit, sort of the ultimate carnivore shop. Like most situations though, the "anti's" cannot accept that others choose to live a different life despite the fact that no one is beating on their door or harranguing them over their habits and preferences. When the wolf is at their door, I only wish that their convictions would carry through to the last bite. Instead, all too often they are screaming that someone better come save them from the  monsters. Too funny and very predictable.

Oddly, she worries that I'm too accommodating by adding Portobello Mushroom sandwiches and salmon to the menu. Keeps telling me that grilled veggies, rice, home fried potato and tortilla chips is more than enough

[ECOCKS]

I took classes on the subjects being discussed at the University level. You clearly haven't.

That's exactly right. (Unless you've been taking the Michael Moore crash course in the Circle of Life and Evolution).

MIchael Moore? That hack still around? Guess he's waiting on another crisis or disaster to try to cash in on misery and pain. Reminds me of those country boys who show up with a chain saw at the prom....

[BillyB]

GQ, most hunted animals go out quickly.  They usually don't know what hit them.  Slaughterhouse animals do not.  

You got that backwards. Slaughterhouse animals have it easier. Forget about the few videos you've seen about abuses. It's not widespread. Hunted animals rarely are downed after the first bullet. Their adrenalin kicks in and they can still run. Hunters sometimes have to track the blood of their animal for a while before catching up to them. First video is of a lion taking a bullet and still able to operate and second video is of slaughterhouse animal.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcirhyn8KI8&feature=related[/youtube]

3 hunters stopped at a hotel for the night. The sign said "Vacancy. Rooms at $30.00/night". Each hunter pulled a $10 bill from their pockets and gave it to the bell boy to pay for the room. The bell boy takes the money and walks over to the counter and tried to pay for the room.

The person at the counter said, 'We're having a special today and the room is only $25.00/night.". So he takes the 3 $10 bills and gave back five $1 bills to the bell boy. The bell boy keeps $2.00 for his 'tip' and gave each hunter $1.00 back. So each of the 3 hunters paid $9.00 ($10.00 and a dollar back). That's 3 x $9.00 is $27.00 PLUS the $2.00 the bell boy kept as 'tip' is $29.00. What happened to the last dollar?  

Hunters payed $27. $25 went to room and $2 went to bell boy. No missing dollar unless one is still trying to calculate with the $30 a room/night that doesn't exist anymore.


I've hunted deer for 5 days out of my life. The guy who invited me is hunting for the meat. From my experience so is every other hunter out there. In my State during hunting season only male deer is legal to shoot at. The males seem to understand when hunting season is happening and are hard to find. I've seen females but nobody shoots them for fun. Most hunters are law abiding and responsible and will only shoot what is legal to shoot at. The worst violators in the forest were from animal lovers. They would cut down lots of trees and fall them in roads so hunter's vehicles would not be able to travel roads to go hunting. Rangers and hunters packed chain saws to clear the roads. A little delay but it doesn't stop the hunting.

I passed by a few hunters and I'm not intimidated by them being armed and they are not intimidated by me. Game meat is valuable and limited so I doubt hunters are shooting animals for fun otherwise their leaving hundreds of dollars of meat on the ground for the other predators of the forest to feast on. Most hunters drive pickups for a reason. I've never seen a hunter with a small car or Mercedes out in the woods.

In my 5 days of hunting, I've never had an opportunity to shoot and I've never heard a shot fired by any other hunter. Some hunters stay out there for days and may never get an opportunity to shoot legal game.

Hunting males doesn't affect population. Females dictate the population of a species. Even if there weren't any wars where men are usually the majority of those that perish, our own population wouldn't be much larger than todays. If our government wants to decrease the population of a species, then it would be legal to hunt the females.

I understand lions and elephants aren't shot at for meat but the governments who allow those animals to be hunted charge a lot of money which is in turn used for enforcement to protect animal wildlife from those who are hunting recklessly and illegally. The few animals that are shot for sport will in turn help promote the survival of the rest of the species.

Organisms usually consume other organisms to survive. That's just how life works. There are even plants that will eat small rodents and insects.

[GoodOlBoy]

MIchael Moore? That hack still around? Guess he's waiting on another crisis or disaster to try to cash in on misery and pain. Reminds me of those country boys who show up with a chain saw at the prom....

Nah...Moore only shows up to exploit "Republican" disasters.
You will notice that Moore didn't show up (and never will) for the worst disaster ever in the GoodOl' USA's history (Gulf Oil Spill), because his "boy" is in the White House.
Remind me again, how many vacations did Obama go on before he finally "visited" the Gulf Coast disaster?


GOB

PS.....Maybe it's that whole "Redneck Riviera" thingy? :noidea:

[Boethius]

Have a look at this video, then tell me how "humane" animal slaughterhouses are.

[Son of Clyde]

Most carnivores were created with sharp teeth for ripping into flesh. Why weren't humans equipped with sharp teeth for ripping into flesh? Why are there so many dentist's anyway? Is it because God gave us George Foreman grille's so we don't have to rip into raw animal flesh? Sorry, I'm getting silly now.

[chivo]

As a matter of fact, earlier versions of Homo Erectus, or those who look like one, are sighted in the streets of Russia and Ukraine even today.

That's because viagra can be bought on every street corner without a prescription in both Russia and Ukraine (just following your line of thinking )