The dangers of building an argument on misinformation

[TomT]

I already have a profile, I am aware of the young hotties and I've dealt with the likes of them for years.

[TomT]

I missed this one on my first pass:

Are you talking about whether or not you have logged in?  First, the manner you logged in differs from Joe Sixpack logging in.  Second, that is such a trivial point compared to to all the bull$hit thrown about on the pro-HRB side.

From my perspective, Jooky is at worst 95% forthright, 5% distortion.  
In contrast, those defending HRB are at best 33% forthright, 33% distortion, 33% diversion.  

Jooky has been focused and enlightening, enough to remove a lot of the lipstick placed on the pig.  I personally feel duped in  giving some of the pro-HRB stance the benefit of the doubt.

Some of the examples used to defend HRB are like putting a racing stripe on a turd - at the end of the day, it's still a turd.  Not my words but certainly applicable.

The motivation of the pro-HRB crowd is inexplicable other than for CEO.  

Yes, I am specifically referring to Jooky's false claim that I never logged into HRB.
No, the manner in which I login is exactly the same as any paying client.
Yes, it's a trivial point but it speaks volumes about the way that some of you folks debate: in the absence of facts, just guess, quote out of context, project or lie.
Your colorful metaphors are a poor diversion from your conspiracy-theory mentality and your emotional debating. The implication in your closing remark hasn't gone over my head; I'll translate it for you: "Anyone who supports HRB must be a liar, a shill or someone who has a financial interest; I'm not sure which."

 

[JR]

Not exclusive to FSUW, as I talked to more than a few women in the USA who have used online sites and they have said the same thing.  But, as other posters have mentioned, does not the marketing of skin (based on the types of photos in many profiles, suggestive avatars, and sexually suggestive contents of the SPAM bring in a higher percentage of men who are a little off in that area?  If so, then I can imagine that the overall opinion formed by the women doing the chatting is one of essentially being turned-off.

Universal disappointment is...well, universal )))

[tim 360]

In oder to communicate with women, my hosts created a test profile for me (TomTat). Initially, I was unaware that 'my' profile was indistinguishable from that of Western clients. When I discovered this, I revised it so that I would not be mistaken for a wife-seeker:

"I am not here to date and I am not available for marriage. I am a guest of the owner and I am here to study the site operation."
 

Being a guest of the owner would hardly make you a "regular cutomer". 

[GQBlues]

Your colorful metaphors are a poor diversion from your conspiracy-theory mentality and your emotional debating. The implication in your closing remark hasn't gone over my head; I'll translate it for you: "Anyone who supports HRB must be a liar, a shill or someone who has a financial interest; I'm not sure which."

I already have the confidence to believe it ain't so, TomT, but I don't have neither the actual/direct information or the interest (really) to speculate. So once and for all, and for the benefit of the readership, and maybe properly defining the word 'accusation', can you answer the following for me (us). Please.

1. Are you getting any form of compensatory payment, retribution, donation, etc...from CEO/HRB, etc...for your time before, during, and after your HRB experience? If so, how much (I saw an amount of $250,000.00 flying about on one of these threads)?

2. What was the intent of 'investigating' this in the first place? What did you plan to accomplish?

3. Have you, or did you ever, as a result of your investigation, directly recommended HRB for men to use. If so, for what purpose? If so, any feedback from those men?

4. What is your definition of a 'scam'? Did your view of HRB and/or its affiliates as service providers changed before/after your investigative period?

5. Is there any, either expressed/implied, business interest that led to your time with HRB?

Now TomT, just indulge me the exercise and don't give me a link to RUA, nor am I asking you to cut/paste what you may have already addressed regarding this issue and/or questions I posted above.

I am trying to serve the title and purpose of this thread well enough.

[wicheese]

Have you seen the Victoria's Secret commercials?

I was not aware they were advertising to have the models get married.  I know so little  .

[JR]

I was not aware they were advertising to have the models get married.  I know so little  .

Everything is for sale and has it's price)))

[Gator]

The implication in your closing remark hasn't gone over my head; I'll translate it for you: "Anyone who supports HRB must be a liar, a shill or someone who has a financial interest; I'm not sure which."

That is one possible implication, although I would never say "liar," especially regarding how I  recall you from RWG many years ago.  Maybe you just like painting racing stripes.  

Frankly, your steadfast support of this problematic agency does suggest more than simply defending the results of your inspection.   I had this feeling early,  yet I ignored the thought as crazy based on my past respect for you. 

I would have felt better if you came here and stated: "This business model derives a vast majority of its revenue with entertainment features that prompt gullible men to believe in fantasies and to spend money in pursuit of the fantasies.    This practice is not a scam because most of these men would not take a trip.  The business model is also applicable for a sincere man seeking marriage minded women.  However, that aspect has encountered some problems in the past which HRB is endeavoring to resolve." 

You call your appearance here a Cameo appearance.  You have gone well beyond a Cameo to become a prime actor.  Tom, of all the topics discussed at RWD over the past 4-5 years, why did you choose this one to become so invested intellectually and/or emotionally?     

[TomT]

I already have the confidence to believe it ain't so, TomT, but I don't have neither the actual/direct information or the interest (really) to speculate. So once and for all, and for the benefit of the readership, and maybe properly defining the word 'accusation', can you answer the following for me (us). Please.

1. Are you getting any form of compensatory payment, retribution, donation, etc...from CEO/HRB, etc...for your time before, during, and after your HRB experience? If so, how much (I saw an amount of $250,000.00 flying about on one of these threads)?

2. What was the intent of 'investigating' this in the first place? What did you plan to accomplish?

3. Have you, or did you ever, as a result of your investigation, directly recommended HRB for men to use. If so, for what purpose? If so, any feedback from those men?

4. What is your definition of a 'scam'? Did your view of HRB and/or its affiliates as service providers changed before/after your investigative period?

5. Is there any, either expressed/implied, business interest that led to your time with HRB?

Now TomT, just indulge me the exercise and don't give me a link to RUA, nor am I asking you to cut/paste what you may have already addressed regarding this issue and/or questions I posted above.

I am trying to serve the title and purpose of this thread well enough.

1) Nope... no lump sum payments, promises of future payments, job offers, consultant agreements, investment opportunities or similar inducements. This is what we received: first-class airfare, a very nice hotel suite, a rental car, meals and fifty HRB credits to play with. I have read comments about some sort of unspecified arrangement but it wasn't offered to me.

2) I was curious about whether or not there was a real business in Florida, how it was organized and if CEO was the person whom he held himself out to be. Mostly, I wanted to take Nessi to see Florida and I had no complaints about someone else paying the tab.

3) I avoid recommendations to personal friends because I don't want the problems that might occur after the inevitable trainwreck. If virtual acquaintances press me to give an answer that is either black or white, I will answer in the affirmative if something is lighter than gray. This is far from ideal but no one has the patience to read the long story and I can't change anyone's preconceptions anyway.

4) In the context of international dating, a scam is misrepresentation of motive. During the course of my trip, my view of HRB improved and my view of the affiliates deteriorated.

5) No, CEO promised me nothing, other than to directly pay my expenses. There were no other inducements and he told me that I could write about the experience or not at my discretion.

[TomT]

Gator,

I was invited to come here and post.

[Gator]

TomT,

You have my standing invitation to post frequently.     

Maybe if you come here enough, you will  throw away that carpetbag.

[BillyB]

During the course of my trip, my view of HRB improved and my view of the affiliates deteriorated.

Tom, to say the feeder agencies are worse than you previously imagined is a statement that many here wanted to hear from you. The problem is that the guy in charge of the feeder agencies, who gave you and your wife a trip to Florida is getting a endorsement.

Tom, you still the CEO of your company that sells cars? If the majority of your employees are doing unethical things to trick people into buying bad cars, do you think you're immune from your employee's actions?

To admit the affiliates are the bad guys and not the main agency that pays them makes many here lose respect for you. Why risk your reputation for HRB? That is probably why many here think you are getting something out of it. I haven't kept up with the story but did Andrew/Andrefi end up going to Florida too? If so, what was his thoughts?

[TomT]

To admit the affiliates are the bad guys and not the main agency that pays them makes many here lose respect for you. Why risk your reputation for HRB? That is probably why many here think you are getting something out of it. I haven't kept up with the story but did Andrew/Andrefi end up going to Florida too? If so, what was his thoughts?

You are playing it pretty fast and loose with the word "admit," Billy. I hope that you don't pull out too late.

Yes, Andrew paid a social call to CEO and, unlike myself, he has the good sense to keep silent.

[wicheese]

1) Nope... no lump sum payments, promises of future payments, job offers, consultant agreements, investment opportunities or similar inducements. This is what we received: first-class airfare, a very nice hotel suite, a rental car, meals and fifty HRB credits to play with. I have read comments about some sort of unspecified arrangement but it wasn't offered to me.

2) I was curious about whether or not there was a real business in Florida, how it was organized and if CEO was the person whom he held himself out to be. Mostly, I wanted to take Nessi to see Florida and I had no complaints about someone else paying the tab.

3) I avoid recommendations to personal friends because I don't want the problems that might occur after the inevitable trainwreck. If virtual acquaintances press me to give an answer that is either black or white, I will answer in the affirmative if something is lighter than gray. This is far from ideal but no one has the patience to read the long story and I can't change anyone's preconceptions anyway.

4) In the context of international dating, a scam is misrepresentation of motive. During the course of my trip, my view of HRB improved and my view of the affiliates deteriorated.

5) No, CEO promised me nothing, other than to directly pay my expenses. There were no other inducements and he told me that I could write about the experience or not at my discretion.

I know close to ZERO about TomT, but I did follow the thread over on RUA and what he writes supports everything I read there.  Also, from a technical standpoint he is correct as it's that point "does HRB scam" that he's responding to.  Does it seem like the CEO sold him on the operation, yes and it's expected from a good salesman, and based on the perspective he was looking at things I do not think he's trying to mislead anyone.  Also, I do not remember the other RUA member (andrewfi) who was given first class tickets to Florida writing any kind of report, but he was in full defense of HRB with his usual demeaning comments for anyone who took a less than favorable view of HRB.  So I at least appreciate TomT contributing, even if I do not agree with him related to the value of a company like HRB.

[Faux Pas]

I know close to ZERO about TomT, but I did follow the thread over on RUA and what he writes supports everything I read there.  Also, from a technical standpoint he is correct as it's that point "does HRB scam" that he's responding to.  Does it seem like the CEO sold him on the operation, yes and it's expected from a good salesman, and based on the perspective he was looking at things I do not think he's trying to mislead anyone.  Also, I do not remember the other RUA member (andrewfi) who was given first class tickets to Florida writing any kind of report, but he was in full defense of HRB with his usual demeaning comments for anyone who took a less than favorable view of HRB.  So I at least appreciate TomT contributing, even if I do not agree with him related to the value of a company like HRB.

Well that's quite an eloquent way of stating that. 

TomT accepted an all expense paid, first class trip to Florida. Sounds like a pretty good time but, one could hardly expect TomT to be an objective party in and I use the terms very loosely of his "inspection" or "audit" of HRB. There is nothing TomT has stated here or in the other thread that would indicate he took an unbiased, untainted look at CEO's operation. He was there on CEO's dime (I believe somewhere he mentioned he took his wife) saw what CEO wanted him to see and even had his own "special interface" and free credits into the website.

None of this lends any credibility in TomT's opinion of whether HRB is on the up and up. Tom hasn't proved anything other that there is an office in Florida and CEO was an accommodating and nice fellow.

[GQBlues]

1) Nope... no lump sum payments, promises of future payments, job offers, consultant agreements, investment opportunities or similar inducements. This is what we received: first-class airfare, a very nice hotel suite, a rental car, meals and fifty HRB credits to play with. I have read comments about some sort of unspecified arrangement but it wasn't offered to me.

2) I was curious about whether or not there was a real business in Florida, how it was organized and if CEO was the person whom he held himself out to be. Mostly, I wanted to take Nessi to see Florida and I had no complaints about someone else paying the tab.

3) I avoid recommendations to personal friends because I don't want the problems that might occur after the inevitable trainwreck. If virtual acquaintances press me to give an answer that is either black or white, I will answer in the affirmative if something is lighter than gray. This is far from ideal but no one has the patience to read the long story and I can't change anyone's preconceptions anyway.

4) In the context of international dating, a scam is misrepresentation of motive. During the course of my trip, my view of HRB improved and my view of the affiliates deteriorated.

5) No, CEO promised me nothing, other than to directly pay my expenses. There were no other inducements and he told me that I could write about the experience or not at my discretion.

Noted as written, TomT. Thanks....

[TomT]

Well that's quite an eloquent way of stating that.  

TomT accepted an all expense paid, first class trip to Florida. Sounds like a pretty good time but, one could hardly expect TomT to be an objective party in and I use the terms very loosely of his "inspection" or "audit" of HRB. There is nothing TomT has stated here or in the other thread that would indicate he took an unbiased, untainted look at CEO's operation. He was there on CEO's dime (I believe somewhere he mentioned he took his wife) saw what CEO wanted him to see and even had his own "special interface" and free credits into the website.

None of this lends any credibility in TomT's opinion of whether HRB is on the up and up. Tom hasn't proved anything other that there is an office in Florida and CEO was an accommodating and nice fellow.

It's a pity that you and Jooky didn't take up a collection to cover our expenses. That way, you would now be calling me a scammer, in addition to being biased and tainted. I give you one thing: this is a thread about misinformation and you are a valuable contributor. I made it a point to disrupt a possible horse and pony show by asking to see specific things abruptly. In every case, their files were opened up to me without hesitation. Not once did a staffer ask CEO whether or not they should comply. As for this special interface thing, will you folks ever get it that I have the same profile and functionality that any client has? The only difference is that I was given 50 free credits, which I didn't waste chatting with chocolate-covered girls like an idiot.

I can't help but notice an interesting trend around here. Some folks have the strange idea that the fewer facts that they have, the more that they know about a subject. If we extend this phenomenon to its natural conclusion, the person without a single fact knows everything... and the person who visited HRB knows absolutely nothing. Perhaps y'all should take a vote and send one of your own down to Dunedin. When he returns, he also will know nothing. Better yet, why don't you all go so that you will all be on a level playing field?

[Faux Pas]

It's a pity that you and Jooky didn't take up a collection to cover our expenses. That way, you would now be calling me a scammer, in addition to being biased and tainted. I give you one thing: this is a thread about misinformation and you are a valuable contributor. I made it a point to disrupt a possible horse and pony show by asking to see specific things abruptly. In every case, their files were opened up to me without hesitation. Not once did a staffer ask CEO whether or not they should comply. As for this special interface thing, will you folks ever get it that I have the same profile and functionality that any client has? The only difference is that I was given 50 free credits, which I didn't waste chatting with chocolate-covered girls like an idiot.

I can't help but notice an interesting trend around here. Some folks have the strange idea that the fewer facts that they have, the more that they know about a subject. If we extend this phenomenon to its natural conclusion, the person without a single fact knows everything... and the person who visited HRB knows absolutely nothing. Perhaps y'all should take a vote and send one of your own down to Dunedin. When he returns, he also will know nothing. Better yet, why don't you all go so that you will all be on a level playing field?

TomT
You seem to insist that this is about you, TomT. It isn't. I apologize that you've taken offense. In fact it has nothing at all to do with you but, you do keep injecting yourself into it. This is about whether HRB is an agency worthy of recommendations and whether or not "WE" believe it is a scammer agency. You've made your point(s). We get it. You believe HRB is not a scam agency. You came to this conclusion while on an all expense paid, first class luxury trip to Florida. It just so happens that the entity footing the bill for your trip is HRB.

Now, if you can't understand why your opinion might be tainted in the eyes of everyone else then, I'm sorry, you just don't "get it". You've accepted gifts from HRB and now you lend your credibility to HRB. Now you make condescending remarks that only you can know what HRB is all about yet, you've stated you've never joined and checked (inspected) or experienced of HRB from the outside looking in. You're offended we don't just take your word for it. 

I don't know you TomT and even if I did and knew you to be above reproach, I still wouldn't take your word for it under those circumstances. Please explain to us exactly what did CEO "show" you? What files were open for your inspection? HRB has a bad reputation, can we agree on that point? Did you take the names and information of complaintants and trace those? How was this audit or inspection conducted. Did you get a tan?

[tim 360]

TomT
You seem to insist that this is about you, TomT. It isn't. I apologize that you've taken offense. In fact it has nothing at all to do with you but, you do keep injecting yourself into it. This is about whether HRB is an agency worthy of recommendations and whether or not "WE" believe it is a scammer agency. You've made your point(s). We get it. You believe HRB is not a scam agency. You came to this conclusion while on an all expense paid, first class luxury trip to Florida. It just so happens that the entity footing the bill for your trip is HRB.

Now, if you can't understand why your opinion might be tainted in the eyes of everyone else then, I'm sorry, you just don't "get it". You've accepted gifts from HRB and now you lend your credibility to HRB. Now you make condescending remarks that only you can know what HRB is all about yet, you've stated you've never joined and checked (inspected) or experienced of HRB from the outside looking in. You're offended we don't just take your word for it. 

I don't know you TomT and even if I did and knew you to be above reproach, I still wouldn't take your word for it under those circumstances. Please explain to us exactly what did CEO "show" you? What files were open for your inspection? HRB has a bad reputation, can we agree on that point? Did you take the names and information of complaintants and trace those? How was this audit or inspection conducted. Did you get a tan?

This is not personal.  Tom at first somone other than you said you had investigated HRB.  When looked at closer you received an all expense paid trip to VISIT HRB in FL from the CEO.  From your brief visit it seems you find them to be legitimate and there is nothing underhanded going on at HRB.  Maybe you drank the Kool-Aid?  Maybe you got the dog and pony show for guests?

But lets not call your visit an impartial investigation...it is what it was.  An HRB sponsored visit.  A real investigative team would have investigative protocols and controls and experience and would have a fully detailed report and would not let the company pay their way.  There would be valid tests.  A review of any company which paid the investigator's or visitors full trip expenses would be suspect in the eyes of any rational person.  But this is not about you.  I guess you don't get that--you should.

Lets say I get a all expense paid trip to AWeb in FL (not really located there) and I start posting on this and other forums that AWeb is indeed legitimate and there is no scamming there at all.  I should know because I was a guest there.  Should I be disgruntled because people disagree with me?  That they don't agree with my opinion based on my brief freebie visit?  Not really.  Because to others my opinion is invalidated by my acceptance of a free all expense paid trip.  It looks tacky.  It is tacky.  Taking the trip is fine, but expecting others not to question your conclusions is strange.  Maybe that insults your pride but honestly think it over. 

Like consumer reports buys the products they rate.  Or cars--the investigators buy the cars or whatever product or service is being tested.  While it is nice to read you find HRB legitimate and scamfree...others will have their doubts. 

[TomT]

OK, fair enough. We will never be able to do a proper study because most of the men who found their wives there have neither the time nor the inclination to post (even if they knew about the existance of RWD). We do have the odd post from an unhappy client, but some of them are less credible than I am perceived to be. As has been pointed out, complete objectivity is impossible. So where does this leave us?

 

[BillyB]

As for this special interface thing, will you folks ever get it that I have the same profile and functionality that any client has? The only difference is that I was given 50 free credits, which I didn't waste chatting with chocolate-covered girls like an idiot.

Tom, your investigation should have covered speaking to those women thoroughly. Most of the complaints about HRB/RLM is generally about the women there playing games with men making them spend their money on communication when the ladies aren't even interested in the guys.

If a company sells new and used cars and the complaints about the company is that their used cars break down soon after purchase and I go investigate that company and not even test drive one used car, could I claim that I see no wrong doing? People would laugh at me. I mentioned before your trip to Florida that you should investigate the feeder agencies since you won't find any thing bad in the office in Florida.

Does anyone really believe those young chocolate covered girls are not influenced in any way in talking to 60 yo men all morning and night long? Most those girls are the ones to initiate contact. Please don't tell me the only influence they have is to find a husband.

[Faux Pas]

OK, fair enough. We will never be able to do a proper study because most of the men who found their wives there have neither the time nor the inclination to post (even if they knew about the existance of RWD). We do have the odd post from an unhappy client, but some of them are less credible than I am perceived to be. As has been pointed out, complete objectivity is impossible. So where does this leave us?

 

Just tossing this out there. It's the business model of HRB as well as HRB's ethics that are in question. The same business model that is A-web and a number of others with a less than sterling reputation. Of course it couldn't be looked at solely from the complaintants and/or from the men who married HRB women. A sample size of each along with the same sample size of serious men searching for brides (as opposed to camchat girls) navigating the website/agency and monitored without the knowledge of the agency. I don't see any benefit of including the agency and I'm confident doing so would only skew the results.

It would take doing the same sample size and evaluations at other agencies/methods for a more accurate yardstick for comparison. As you can see, to pull off such an undertaking would take much time and money. It's unlikely there is any 3rd party willing to fund such an audit. If CEO was in fact serious and wasn't just giving lip service, he'd probably hire an independent firm to conduct such an audit. If, it is as he (and you) state, it would be a tremendous marketing tool. If it wasn't as you describe, it would give him specifics to work on. The chances are in my view from here is, he wouldn't like the results

[Faux Pas]

Does anyone really believe those young chocolate covered girls are not influenced in any way in talking to 60 yo men all morning and night long? Most those girls are the ones to initiate contact. Please don't tell me the only influence they have is to find a husband.

It appears to me that the cam chat requests are automated. The requests come as fast as you can decline them. Decline one and there's immediately another. I assume it's designed software to keeps the girls ringing off the credits. I relatively sure the emails from women are automated as well

[BillyB]

It appears to me that the cam chat requests are automated.

So when a guy gets a notice that a girl wants to chat with him, it's not a sincere or even insincere request from a girl since it's coming from a computer?  This keeps getting better and better. I can imagine the RW at the computer wondering what pervert the computer will send her next.

[Faux Pas]

So when a guy gets a notice that a girl wants to chat with him, it's not a sincere or even insincere request from a girl since it's coming from a computer?  This keeps getting better and better. I can imagine the RW at the computer wondering what pervert the computer will send her next.

Thats only my guess Billy but, the cam chat requests never stopped coming and they were all currently online