How did you meet?

[Gator]

HonBun,

You referenced the story of a murdered Russian immigrant.  Did you mean the sad saga of Anastasia Solovieva and Indle G. King Jr.?  If so, it was not Frisco or LA.  This article does not mention a “journal” or a “basement.”   The husband was indeed “fat.”  Then again maybe all MOB husbands are fat.  

If this was your evidence, you should endeavor to be accurate, or people will think you are impulsive.  If not your evidence, I apologize for my implication.

[Gator]

.... it would be nice for a nice guy like yourself to let others state their opinion and respect the existence of it instead of doing what you do.

Actually, I/O is respectful.  RWD respects diversity.  We respected your opinion by reading it and considering it.  That does not mean we must accept your opinion, especially when it differs from what we believe based on years of experience in this endeavor.  Keep in mind that you slighted a process that led to the vast majority of the happy marriages and relationships at RWD.

The same as you, I have opinions.  From being involved with the RW endeavor for 9 years, I have three opinions relevant to your statement:

1.    RW have more legal protection from domestic abuse in the US than in Russia. You wrote RW in Russia “…have friends and family to turn to in case domestic abuse happens.”  That is essentially all they have. There is a night and day difference in law enforcement procedures between Russia and the US for domestic abuse cases.  If you compared the two, it should open your eyes.

2.    There is an informal network of  RW to help RW residing in America with seeking legal protection. 

3.   There are probably more cases of RW using the law to abuse AM emotionally, financially, etc. than there are cases of AM physically abusing RW (see Maxx2).

Honbun, I sincerely hope you do spend more time at RWD.  I believe RWD will provide more substance and diverse ideas than one can obtain from reading RW gossip forums.

[hon_bun]

HonBun,

You referenced the story of a murdered Russian immigrant.  Did you mean the sad saga of Anastasia Solovieva and Indle G. King Jr.?  If so, it was not Frisco or LA.  This article does not mention a “journal” or a “basement.”   The husband was indeed “fat.”  Then again maybe all MOB husbands are fat.  

If this was your evidence, you should endeavor to be accurate, or people will think you are impulsive.  If not your evidence, I apologize for my implication.

I believe her name was Anastasia and the murder scene was the garage. The husband turned out to have a roommate just out of jail and whatever they both decided to do with the girl ended with murdering her.

[Gator]

Anastasia and Indle:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/59387_king22.shtml

[vwrw]

You both HB and Gator speak of the same case. I watched a documentary about the case on TV. The girl seemed nice but totally under influence of her mother, which impressed me as a creep.  In that case, the mother wanted to live in America even if her daughter had to sacrifice her happiness for that purpose. I found it unbearable to listen to her mother’s thoughts about her daughter’s situation. In the end, the mother relocated to America for permanent residency.

[hon_bun]

Anastasia and Indle:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/59387_king22.shtml

Yes that's him.

[Misha]

One woman killed by domestic violence every hour in Russia : http://rt.com/news/prime-time/one-woman-killed-by-domestic-violence-every-hour-in-russia/

This works out to roughly 14,000 women per year according to Russia Today.

An interesting fact, according to RT, Moscow doesn't have even one shelter for abused women.

[Gator]

Yes; that's him. I can't believe he was a registered sex offender and the girl or her family never checked his background before she said Yes to anything.
Even if women don't bother to check, the INS should, and eliminate men with sex crimes or such from petitioning. But I guess it doesn't care all too much...

This case attracted national attention, and some sweeping Federal legislation was enacted that requires  a man to disclose his history of violent crimes, etc. before making contact with a woman listed with  marriage agency.  See IMBRA.   

[Gator]

To answer the original question; my wife found me on a western dating site. ....My wife never joined a "MOB" site and has stated that she never would have.

What is the substantive difference between a dating site and Elena's Models?   

[Blues Fairy]

1.    RW have more legal protection from domestic abuse in the US than in Russia. You wrote RW in Russia “…have friends and family to turn to in case domestic abuse happens.”  That is essentially all they have. There is a night and day difference in law enforcement procedures between Russia and the US for domestic abuse cases.  If you compared the two, it should open your eyes.

The irony is that in Russia, friends and family are often the aggravating factor when it comes to domestic abuse.  The pressure to stay in the abusive marriage most often comes from parents and/or siblings or friends.  "The child needs a father"; "better to have any husband than none"; "nobody will marry a single mom"; "you're too old to find another husband" etc etc - crap like that.  Being protected by law in the US is a better guarantee than relying on traditional extended family in Russia, IMHO.  As for the safety network, it's way easier to build, even from scratch, in a country where women's rights are already embedded in the culture and in the minds of people.   

[Misha]

The irony is that in Russia, friends and family are often the aggravating factor when it comes to domestic abuse.  The pressure to stay in the abusive marriage most often comes from parents and/or siblings or friends.  "The child needs a father"; "better to have any husband than none"; "nobody will marry a single mom"; "you're too old to find another husband" etc etc - crap like that. 

Plus, you have to throw into the mix the never ending conflict over housing. Let's say daughter A moved out to be with her husband and you have promised your apartment (let's say a 2-room apartment which is pretty average) to your other child and his or her children, nobody will want to daughter A to move back home alone or with kids, and everybody will do their best to convince her to stay with her husband...

[Ade]

What is the substantive difference between a dating site and Elena's Models?   

Technically nothing I guess except the stigma that is attached to one and, generally, not the other. I guess EM is less of a MOB marriage agency and more of an introduction agency. But still, right or wrong, there is a certain stigma perceived by some.

[Vaughn]

Vaughn , cool story

Just curious , in your many visits, did you ever go fishing?


I planned to, but never did

AJ, I finally fished there in 2006, a full five years later - with a nephew by marriage. I hauled over some lightweight
Bass Pro Shop equipment for him, then made the excuse that "we just had to try it all out..."  

Technically nothing I guess except the stigma that is attached to one and, generally, not the other. I guess EM is less of a MOB marriage agency and more of an introduction agency. But still, right or wrong, there is a certain stigma perceived by some.

Elvira and I noticed others' stigma-perception all around us. Fortunately we never assigned any of it much importance. Was how we met significant to us? Not really - I'd assign it a "footnote" status in light of seeking happiness together.
Some will say I "bought" her, others will have deemed her "a desperate woman, with child - well over the acceptable
age for a nubile Russian lady." In short, none of it matters to us. We're both pretty self-centered when it comes right
down to the health of our relationship and marriage.

I wonder if a single or divorced man or woman met the love of his/her life while standing on an unemployment line, or
even in a charitable urban soup-kitchen - would they take that stigma into consideration at all?

[Muzh]

Isn't it easier to stick to your own kind? And I'm sorry, generalization like "my own kind sucks, they're mean and greedy" doesn't count. You can't generalize anymore, remember?

May I ask you then what is my own kind? Human perhaps?

[Muzh]

Quote from: hon_bun on March 12, 2011, 11:37:30 PM
Isn't it easier to stick to your own kind? And I'm sorry, generalization like "my own kind sucks, they're mean and greedy" doesn't count. You can't generalize anymore, remember?

May I ask you then what is my own kind? Human perhaps?

You have no idea how much I've heard this bullcracker. "Funny, you don't look Puertorican, you look white." "Why you married a Russian? Why didn't you married your own kind?

What is your own kind? Ignorant?

[hon_bun]

Quote from: hon_bun on March 12, 2011, 11:37:30 PM
Isn't it easier to stick to your own kind? And I'm sorry, generalization like "my own kind sucks, they're mean and greedy" doesn't count. You can't generalize anymore, remember?

You have no idea how much I've heard this bullcracker. "Funny, you don't look Puertorican, you look white." "Why you married a Russian? Why didn't you married your own kind?

What is your own kind? Ignorant?

whatever. you should come back to 'how you met' part. i really don't care

[Muzh]

whatever. you should come back to 'how you met' part. i really don't care

Gotcha. "Whatever"

[Woodie]

To bring this back on topic:

We met through Elena's Models.  I posted a profile there.  I ended up in a weekly mailout that she received and she wrote me a letter.  I received other letters, but her's was the most interesting so I wrote her back.  I never ended up writing to any of the other girls who had written to me or to any of the girls that I had been looking at on my own...

We talked on Skype 2 weeks after the first letter.  I visited her 5 months after the first letter.  We were married 13 months after the first letter.  I am very lucky!

We are now waiting, not so patiently, for her visa to be approved...

[GQBlues]

What is your own kind? Ignorant?

Talk about berating a woman, hero.

Well, I worked and lived here at that time and it took us about 2 months of seeing each other before he even asked me to be his GF. I'll take my husband home one day, he's not ready yet. I definitely wouldn't be able to manage on-line dating. There is so much BS in it, it's crazy. People lie their brains out in on-line correspondence. I'm glad we met in person!

I understand and I can't say I blame you with that opinion.

To bring this back on topic:

We met through Elena's Models.  I posted a profile there.  I ended up in a weekly mailout that she received and she wrote me a letter.  I received other letters, but her's was the most interesting so I wrote her back.  I never ended up writing to any of the other girls who had written to me or to any of the girls that I had been looking at on my own...

We talked on Skype 2 weeks after the first letter.  I visited her 5 months after the first letter.  We were married 13 months after the first letter.  I am very lucky!

We are now waiting, not so patiently, for her visa to be approved...

Good and keep it that way. Don't fall into the barrel of men who loudly speaks as though they've found the path to heaven with this experience. But when asked how they met their wives by the big wide open, the first thing they do is deny it as if that process is so beneath them. There's a thread here where one can read 1001 ways to circumvent the truth behind how they met. Even all the way on up to simply telling folks that it's none of their business. LOL.

If you believe and respect your marriage, your wife, and yourself...never, ever deny the very process that put the two of you together. There's no stigma attached to finding and meeting someone who want to share your lifetime with in the manner we all have. The only stigma in the MOB are the men whose first impulse is deny it. There's something sinister in men who are embarassed to admit how they met the women they supposedly hold in high regards.

[I/O]

the first thing they do is deny it as if that process is so beneath them.

Interesting angle and one I haven't really considered in any depth. For the most part, I kinda wish it had all been on line for us because it would be simpler to explain. Fact is, it wasn't although there was an on line factor in there and ironically enough, was a greater factor the further things went until we were actually together permanently.

In my experience there has been more ignorance and even comment, albeit some of it almost deafeningly silent, on the basis of the international thing and the Russian (it's a poor country whom everyone wants out of) thing than has there has been regarding the internet factor.

[Muzh]

Talk about berating a woman, hero.

Two birds of a feather?

I was addressing the ignorant comment. Please understand ignorance does not "discriminate" from sexes.

Try again. 

[Jack]

Woodie, the woman that you married, was she the first and only Russian/Ukraine woman that you met?

[Daveman]

Plus, you have to throw into the mix the never ending conflict over housing. Let's say daughter A moved out to be with her husband and you have promised your apartment (let's say a 2-room apartment which is pretty average) to your other child and his or her children, nobody will want to daughter A to move back home alone or with kids, and everybody will do their best to convince her to stay with her husband...

Very interesting and probably an excellent point. One that I had not come close to considering in the grand scheme of FSU topics.

[Gator]

If you believe and respect your marriage, your wife, and yourself...never, ever deny the very process that put the two of you together. There's no stigma attached to finding and meeting someone who want to share your lifetime with in the manner we all have. The only stigma in the MOB are the men whose first impulse is deny it. There's something sinister in men who are embarassed to admit how they met the women they supposedly hold in high regards.

Good point.  What is the source of the stigma in some men’s minds?   I do not understand why some men see a difference between contacting RW at a dating site vs. a MOB agency.   

Functionally, there is little difference between the two.  Legally, International Marriage Broker (aka MOB agency) is defined in the International Marriage Broker Act (or IMBRA) of 2005 as an entity (whether or not U.S.-based) that charges fees for providing matchmaking services or social referrals between U.S. citizens and foreign nationals.

This seemingly would include dating sites such as Mamba.  However, the IMBRA definition exempts dating services that a) do not match U.S. citizens with foreign nationals as their principal business and b) do charge comparable rates and offer comparable services to all clients, regardless of gender or country of citizenship.

Possible sources of stigma:

1.   IMBs first proliferated during the period when the FSU was in economic turmoil, and a sense of economic desperation was associated with many of the first wave of marriages.  In contrast, dating sites became popular only as the FSU economy improved.
2.   There were a few (2-3) highly publicized cases of American men murdering their alien wives met via a IMB.
3.   The sales hype of some IMB sites degrades RW by suggesting they have no choice other than turn to the West (they outnumber men, men are alcoholics, etc.).
4.   Some IMB sites feature provocative photos of the RW listed with them.
5.   Some IMB sites are known to scam American users via misleading if not false personal correspondence.
6.   Men and women are on more equal footing at a dating site; in contrast, a IMB is akin to hunting with a guide and dog in a private game preserve and thus  better suited for men with unpolished social skills.

All of these sources would suggest that the stigma is more from the RW’s perspective.  And we do know that RW are long on pride.   Only Number 6 would be a reason for a man to avoid IMBs.

Seriously Jaded is a man whom I find intelligent and well adjusted, and I believe he would marry someone who is the same.  He states that his wife would not use an IMB site, yet they found each other on a dating site.   I asked SJ to distinguish between the two, and his answer from above:

 

Technically nothing I guess except the stigma that is attached to one and, generally, not the other. …. But still, right or wrong, there is a certain stigma perceived by some.

[Muzh]

Possible sources of stigma:

1.   IMBs first proliferated during the period when the FSU was in economic turmoil, and a sense of economic desperation was associated with many of the first wave of marriages.  In contrast, dating sites became popular only as the FSU economy improved.
2.   There were a few (2-3) highly publicized cases of American men murdering their alien wives met via a IMB.
3.   The sales hype of some IMB sites degrades RW by suggesting they have no choice other than turn to the West (they outnumber men, men are alcoholics, etc.).
4.   Some IMB sites feature provocative photos of the RW listed with them.
5.   Some IMB sites are known to scam American users via misleading if not false personal correspondence.
6.   Men and women are on more equal footing at a dating site; in contrast, a IMB is akin to hunting with a guide and dog in a private game preserve and thus  better suited for men with unpolished social skills.

All of these sources would suggest that the stigma is more from the RW’s perspective.  And we do know that RW are long on pride.   Only Number 6 would be a reason for a man to avoid IMBs.

Gator:
I don't think number 5 would be a source of stigma, as in men would be embarassed to tell others wher he met his wife. I think he would be more embarassed on fora like these where there are people whose been there or close to that.

Regarding number 6, do you mean this picture?