Infidelity in Russia - Ukraine

[Gator]

If VWRW's guesstimate that 92% of the men cheat is accurate, there are not enough prostitute-hours to satisfy demand.  Thus, the idiom '"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is seemingly reversed in this case to "What is good for the gander is good for the goose."   

A RM is expected to cheat so he admits it and even talks about it in front of his wife.  The RW is not expected to cheat, so she offers lame excuses to suggest reluctant acceptance.  Meanwhile she is humping her hubby's brother.

And all this time I thought the reason for sexual promiscuity in the FSU was not having money for other pleasurable pursuits.  That and 8 months of cold weather.

[Rubicon]

this thread makes me want to join a certain branch of the Mormon church and move to Moscow!   

[vwrw]

Haha.. I got you to admit you are in love with America.. So, how do AM get around the 'no helping a lady out in public' rule that's been imposed by the feminist movement?. I know a lot of men will think twice before holding a door for a woman for fear of 'humiliating' her..

America is associated with the happiest years in my life so far. This country is not perfect, but this is the best country I have ever seen or lived in. With one exception, my husband has never heard my saying that something is better in Russia. The only thing that I think is better in Russia is entertainments in restaurants. So yes, I indeed love my new country  …what is wrong with that?


I do not yet know what is going on in the business world …maybe there men think twice before holding a door for a woman, but in my college everybody ,regardless of his or her gender andage, holds a door for the person going behind. It is a matter of politeness to do so, and it does not humiliate anybody.

[vwrw]

If VWRW's guesstimate that 92% of the men cheat is accurate...,

I want to clarify that I meant that probably 92% of the men from the upper and upper middle class cheat. If we consider the entire male population, I would say that the number is about 50% or even less. I certainly can be wrong and my naked eye might be misled. It is very easy to misperceive the extent of phenomena if you do not have the statistical results obtained through a repayable method.

[Faux Pas]

My only caveat to that VWRW is, by percentages and only IMO, RMs largely function in an environment where the women are struck with social dynamics not existent with AWs to a huge degree. If given the same type of liberties, or availabilities, afforded RMs in Russia...American men will easily trip over each other with as much fervor and frequency.

Heck, most of them can hardly get a decent date for dinner as it is, let alone amass lores of mistresses.

What seems to be danced all around in this thread although you touched on it here as shadow eluded to earlier is: the behaviors are pretty much the same on both sides of the ocean. It may not be as obvious in the west as it is in Russia but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Obviously, from appearance RM have more opportunity based on numbers for infidelity but, they have far from cornered the market. I know many AM and AW could teach some Russians a few things 

[vwrw]

I also agree with the guys who say that women�s participation is required for men to cheat. Yet, I think that the third party to cheating, whether it is a woman or a man, while behaving wrong, is less responsible for the infidelity. Unlike a cheating spouse or boyfriend, the third party did not give explicit or implicit promises to care about happiness of the party who is betrayed.  Although it seems tempting to blame the competition if a partnership has failed, often it is the partners or, in some cases, one of them who are or is really to blame.

[OlgaH]

..

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AkN4qGkqnU[/youtube]

[pitbull]

What seems to be danced all around in this thread although you touched on it here as shadow eluded to earlier is: the behaviors are pretty much the same on both sides of the ocean. It may not be as obvious in the west as it is in Russia but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. Obviously, from appearance RM have more opportunity based on numbers for infidelity but, they have far from cornered the market. I know many AM and AW could teach some Russians a few things 

It may very well be that AM cheat as much, or close to as much as RM do... or at least would love to. It seems to me that the reason why it is done so openly in FSU is persistent inequality between men and women, particularly  in the process of divorce. A well to do RM can easily leave his "old" wife and children behind with hardly any payout, not even mentioning the 50/50 split of assets.
Financial ramifications of a divorce for an AM, especially after a long marriage, can be devastating. A woman's financial rights are very well defended and enforced by American law. AW can afford not to put up with a husband's cheating. So at least some AM would think twice before they cheat or at least try to hide infidelity.
Cute song too



So I would imagine some AM would at least think

[Sail]

What "real man" would not open a door for a woman? I always open doors for women, I was in Russia and some young women even opened a door for me one day and she was not going into the store she was just being helpful imagine that!
Those are the times in a persons life you will remember, her eyes looking into yours forever just a chance meeting on the street no words spoken ......remains in your mind always.

[Eduard]

I just returned from Russia 3 weeks ago and I think that all this cheating is going on because of the damn weather! A man's brain is half frozen at -25 Celsius so he can't be blamed for little indiscretions. The fact that there are 4 or 5 women for every man at any night club you go to prolly has nothing to do with it. Frankly I got tired of being looked at as a piece of meat by all these lonely, undersexed, pretty women. So it's good to be home with the family in sunny Florida  

[possum]

America is associated with the happiest years in my life so far. This country is not perfect, but this is the best country I have ever seen or lived in. With one exception, my husband has never heard my saying that something is better in Russia. The only thing that I think is better in Russia is entertainments in restaurants. So yes, I indeed love my new country  �what is wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with it.. From what you have revealed, America has been good to you, so it's only natural that you like it as your new home. However, I also sense a lot of resentment towards your former home, which makes your perspective is a bit skewed.. You're saying AM don't cheat (as much) and make better husbands, boyfriends, etc.. But having been with only one AM, can you really compare all of them to all Russian men? That is unless there is something in your biography I'm not aware of, like a bad relationship or two on American soil..

As someone else indicated, in Europe and America men prefer to cheat with prostitutes because it's cheaper than losing half of their possessions in a divorce settlement.. Whereas in Russia, in most cases, it's cheaper to have a mistress, and fear of divorce is way down the list of problems men face in this country.

[Aloe]

Before we know it, ML is gonna dig up an article claiming mormons have overrun Russia and it is a common practice to marry 2 women, and go propose to his 2 affairs at the same time

[dbneeley]

There's nothing wrong with it.. From what you have revealed, America has been good to you, so it's only natural that you like it as your new home. However, I also sense a lot of resentment towards your former home, which makes your perspective is a bit skewed.. You're saying AM don't cheat (as much) and make better husbands, boyfriends, etc.. But having been with only one AM, can you really compare all of them to all Russian men? That is unless there is something in your biography I'm not aware of, like a bad relationship or two on American soil..

As someone else indicated, in Europe and America men prefer to cheat with prostitutes because it's cheaper than losing half of their possessions in a divorce settlement.. Whereas in Russia, in most cases, it's cheaper to have a mistress, and fear of divorce is way down the list of problems men face in this country.

First, the strategy of personal assertions about someone merely because they my have a different impression is unfortunate, and it often discourages many to participate.

Next, I think it is not at all accurate to make a blanket statement that Europeans or Americans who cheat "prefer to cheat with prostitutes." In fact, in my experience that is still a distinct minority among cheaters. Divorce laws notwithstanding, cheating with amateurs still seems to be the preferred method--often, in fact, with co-workers or others in regular contact.

As for cheating in the FSU--I have observed already that VWRW seems quite correct, in that a relatively high percentage of men with wealth or authority here do seem to cheat, and far more openly than in the West. I also observed this over many years in Mexico and Latin America, again at levels I believe were higher than in my experience in the U.S.

At the same time, there are many men here in the FSU who are among the finest I have known--it is by no means universal, only very common.

Finally, among at least one type woman it seems that money and power are indeed aphrodisiacs. I was a campaign press secretary for a U.S. Senator in a re-election campaign some years ago, and since I traveled with the Senator for six months I was able to see first hand how many women threw themselves at him. It was a fairly constant duty for a few of us to deflect those instances on his behalf without making the women involved angry enough for potential repercussions later--more than a few were large contributors, either first hand or through husbands who presumably did not know of their wives' attempts at extracurricular activities.

I doubt things are different in significant ways in the FSU when it comes to the wealthy or powerful, although there seems far less motivation to keep things hidden.

David

[Aloe]

I doubt things are different in significant ways in the FSU when it comes to the wealthy or powerful, although there seems far less motivation to keep things hidden.

It is hard to keep things hidden when the brain damaged things you cheated with keep calling your house and terrorizing your wife  

[possum]

Before we know it, ML is gonna dig up an article claiming mormons have overrun Russia and it is a common practice to marry 2 women, and go propose to his 2 affairs at the same time

Don't give him any ideas..

[Kuna]

Finally, among at least one type woman it seems that money and power are indeed aphrodisiacs. I was a campaign press secretary for a U.S. Senator in a re-election campaign some years ago, and since I traveled with the Senator for six months I was able to see first hand how many women threw themselves at him. It was a fairly constant duty for a few of us to deflect those instances on his behalf without making the women involved angry enough for potential repercussions later--more than a few were large contributors, either first hand or through husbands who presumably did not know of their wives' attempts at extracurricular activities.

I doubt things are different in significant ways in the FSU when it comes to the wealthy or powerful, although there seems far less motivation to keep things hidden.

David

I think this cuts to the chase above all other posts here...  

I'm sure a reasonable percentage of successful RM do cheat... and I'm certain single SUCCESSFUL RM also have MANY opportunities to "date" many women too (probably concurrently)... but really - is it much different than in the west?

It's a fact that some women chase (even a casual encounter) with a man she perceives as successful - for whatever reason.  I think the big difference is that a RM probably feels it's his "right" to partake in such pleasures - whereas a smart WM knows his "right" has been taken away by the consequences of such actions.

[possum]

First, the strategy of personal assertions about someone merely because they my have a different impression is unfortunate, and it often discourages many to participate.

Didn't discourage you, did it?. In my experience, a little assumption goes a long way to keep the discussion going and that's a good thing for a message board, provided the argument doesn't turn ugly.. In my "defense", I wanted to throw an IMO in there but thought that would be too American..

Next, I think it is not at all accurate to make a blanket statement that Europeans or Americans who cheat "prefer to cheat with prostitutes." In fact, in my experience that is still a distinct minority among cheaters. Divorce laws notwithstanding, cheating with amateurs still seems to be the preferred method--often, in fact, with co-workers or others in regular contact.

I have no experience in that area, so I apologize if my statement wasn't 100% correct..

At the same time, there are many men here in the FSU who are among the finest I have known--it is by no means universal, only very common.

What's very common, the cheating or for RM to be fine men?. My money is on both.

Finally, among at least one type woman it seems that money and power are indeed aphrodisiacs. I was a campaign press secretary for a U.S. Senator in a re-election campaign some years ago, and since I traveled with the Senator for six months I was able to see first hand how many women threw themselves at him. It was a fairly constant duty for a few of us to deflect those instances on his behalf without making the women involved angry enough for potential repercussions later--more than a few were large contributors, either first hand or through husbands who presumably did not know of their wives' attempts at extracurricular activities.

All I said was, when it comes to cheating women are as much part of the problem as men are.. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

[Gator]

   

All I said was, when it comes to cheating women are as much part of the problem as men are. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Exactly, excluding the closet gay husbands.  I dated the ex-wife of one such man (how do I find such AM?).

Possum, IMO most American wives would be more upset about a husband cheating with prostitutes (disease).  Very few AW would tolerate cheating, regardless of the other woman.  If an AW wants a divorce all she has to claim is "irreconcilable differences" without ever having to disclose the differences.  Judges don't care.

 Anecdote: 

An American wife sees her husband, a successful businessman, arm in arm with a young woman.  She demands that they discuss it, so they go to a remote restaurant.  He admits that the woman is his mistress of the past few years.  The wife states that she will seek a divorce and will retain a sonofabitch attorney.  The husband explains that although the courts will award her half the assets, her share will not be enough to support her current lifestyle.

"You will not be able to afford a house as large as ours.   The maid and cook will be gone.  No more new Mercedes.  What else?  The winter trips to the Caribbean, summer trips to Europe,  fall shopping in New York.  Membership at our country club.  Heck, you may need to sell some of your jewelry.  Are you really sure you want all that to come to an end?"

This startles her and she finishes her wine while contemplating the future change.  At that very moment, she notices a friend of the family entering the restaurant with a very sexy, young blonde woman.

She asked her husband, "Who is that with Fred?" The husband replies, "That's Sandra, his mistress, and no, I don't think Edna knows." The wife was quite shocked.  She has another glass of wine, and keeps looking at Fred and Sandra.  Finally, she declares "Well, OUR mistress is much prettier.”

[Chicagoguy]

It seems to me that one difference between Americans and Russians is that in Russia there are not as many consequences for either the men or women when it comes to cheating.

[dbneeley]

She asked her husband, "Who is that with Fred?" The husband replies, "That's Sandra, his mistress, and no, I don't think Edna knows." The wife was quite shocked.  She has another glass of wine, and keeps looking at Fred and Sandra.  Finally, she declares "Well, OUR mistress is much prettier.�

Gator, I'm fairly sure your story was apocryphal. Let me tell you a true one:

Years ago, I knew an American petroleum engineer working in Mexico and living there with his Mexican wife. About three years after their marriage, the wife was troubled by something. After coaxing it out of her, it turns out she was concerned that perhaps they weren't as well off as she had assumed.

As she told him "I know you have been faithful to me. I was worried that perhaps we simply could not afford a mistress!"

He assured her that he had no interest in cheating, and even went so far as to go over the finances again in detail with her so she would not be worried about that, either--something she had no large interest in prior to that time.

In some societies, as I said, it is a common experience among the upper classes. About ten years ago, I went with my brother to a party in the home of the mistress of the chief of customs for Matamoros, Mexico--who played host there for about forty of us. Meanwhile, his wife and children were at home.

David

[Gator]

As she told him "I know you have been faithful to me. I was worried that perhaps we simply could not afford a mistress!"

  That's Mexico. 

Not the story for AW, nor for the RW I am serious about.

True story.  Some of the tennis members at my country club have formed a social circle of swingers.   One crowded evening at the bar two women from that circle started fighting.  Strange sight to see women wrestling on the floor, scratching and cursing.  The club rescinded the membership of one combatant. 

I am not a saint, yet I never messed around with a married woman.  It is complicated and messy, plus I wouldn't want to share someone whom I like.   


One of golfing friends is a real horn dog.  I usually shared a room with him on golf trips,  and most of the time he never slept there.  This culminated with him coming home one day and seeing a strange car in the driveway.  He walked in, said hello, and his wife replied, "Hi honey!  Your girlfriend is here."   The GF had somehow traced his license plate and made an unannounced call.  He had to tell her in front of his wife that is was only for sex.  Meanwhile his two little kids were running around the house.   Years later, I think he is still apologizing.  Messy! 

[OlgaH]

Years later, I think he is still apologizing.  Messy! 

 he will make his apology for the rest of his life or until the children reach 18-21 (depends on a State) 

[Jumper]

That's Mexico.

but the story is relevant?

some culturies ARE more accepting of this ,particularly- as has been noted -
 if the man is at a higher level within that society.
 
my impressions-
the differences are at what level any grudging acceptance begins ?

 In the west this possible *acceptance* level typically limited to the elite..
movie star, celebrity, sports star, politician, powerful businessmen,  lawyers, etc and trickles down from there .?
 
In the East , its seems far more expected, and the  acceptance level drops further into the field,
to the point in the FSU of  simply a reasonably successful man.


Certainly many RW would not tolerate it at all,
 but i know more than  a few cases of an average small business man whose RW wife accepts he has a mistress or two as long as he doesnt throw it in her face.
it certainly does not seem unusual.

While in the west , a business man of this same level,
is not nearly as likely to have a level of acceptance..

while someone higher up the social strata   might have.

Certainly cheating goes on everywhere.. and it takes two to Tango..
but to think it doesnt happen to various DIFFERENT degrees in various cultures ,or in various levels of
specific society seems odd,as certainly the situations are different.

[GQBlues]

We interrupt this discussion so we may bring you this important word from our commercial member.

I just returned from Russia 3 weeks ago and I think that all this cheating is going on because of the damn weather! A man's brain is half frozen at -25 Celsius so he can't be blamed for little indiscretions. The fact that there are 4 or 5 women for every man at any night club you go to prolly has nothing to do with it. Frankly I got tired of being looked at as a piece of meet by all these lonely, undersexed, pretty women. So it's good to be home with the family in sunny Florida

We will now return you to our regular programming.

[ECOCKS]

As several have mentioned, my sense was that this was far more common in the FSU than in the US. Also, as Chicagoguy commented, there seem to be fewer consequences for the guy but I would add about as many for the woman. That would seem to support a general statement that infidelity is more common in the FSU than in the US.