Anti-USA propaganda ? Or just plain sick...

[possum]

Nope. I could give a rat's arse to learn Russian as it's of little use for me...

LOL.. Angry much?

[GQBlues]

Once again...

"What it all comes down to is basically this...these children have a 99.96 percent chance for a better life because of US adoption. SHOW me anything - ANYTHING, anyone in Russia, government or otherwise that had done that much improvement, or close to it, in these children's lives."

[GQBlues]

LOL.. Angry much?

Me?! Why should I? I live in the US. I have no reason to be 

[GQBlues]

BC? possum?

Still Googling?

[possum]

BC? possum?

Still Googling?

Huh?

Is the Ministry of Education a good enough source for you?

http://www.usynovite.ru/statistics/2008/

Or how about Rosstat?

http://www.gks.ru/doc_2009/deti09_rus.pdf (see page 108)

[GQBlues]

LOL...

hildren by numbers

The exact number of the children is one of the most sensitive issues. According to the state report, there was 30.5 million children in under 18 in Russia, or 21.3% of the country?s population, as at the beginning of 2003. But the statistics are made for making a comparison. I mean, there was 32.8 million children in Russia by the start of 2002. In other words, 2.3 million simply disappeared over the period of one year! There was 33.9 million in 2000. The number shrank by 3.4 in two years.

Let?s take a look back at the situation in 1992. According to the UNISEF report ?The state of the children in the world?, Russia had 44,349,470 children in 1992. The number stands for a loss of 13,849,470 humans!

Politicians and the media alike love citing alarming figures about an alleged 1 million drop in the nation?s population each year. All told, Russia?s population decreased by 5,229,000 people, from 148,326,000 to 143,097,000 while the number of children dropped by some 14 million! That?s where the bullet hits the bone: one part of the statistics shows children coming of age, growing up while the other shows that their mission is aborted for they?ve never been born.

http://www.inauka.ru/english/article47446/print.html

If this person ain't careful, well...

LOL.

possum, you're better served giving me Fox News-like citations as you chief source, man..

[possum]

possum, you're better served giving me Fox News-like citations as you chief source, man..

Come on now, it's not my problem you can't read Russian.. You asked for the source of the stats I quoted, I referred you to that source.. If you don't trust me, get someone to translate for you.

[GQBlues]

No need really...like I said upthread something that dramatic would be pastered all over the superinformation highway. Your citations reeks with as much rhetorics and truths as the Enquirer. LOL...par for the course possum.

I am not surprised.  

Someone let BC know he can stop Googling now, too...

[BC]

BC? possum?

Still Googling?

Why still?  I found what I could read.  As previously stated would take a native to find and make sense out of recent available statistical information.  Much of what's written in english is very dated as is much you have posted above, 2002 material.

But even using your reference http://www.roofnet.org/orphanage_life the author does state:

Initiatives to develop adoption and foster care systems are slowly beginning to appear in Russia and the government does support them. In parallel with this development, ROOF is here to support orphanage personnel in their quest to help prevent today's orphanage population from giving rise to another one.

As with any such endeavor, the primary goal is to stop children from becoming orphans in the first place.  At this stage I would hope that the number of children orphaned is decreasing at the same time that the number of children adopted increase.  I would think the major cause/effect role is economics.  Although the problem will never just go away, some numbers showing improvement beyond the early post SU years would be informative and encouraging.

[possum]

No need really...like I said upthread something that dramatic would be pastered all over the superinformation highway. Your citations reeks with as much rhetorics and truths as the Enquirer. LOL...par for the course possum.

I am not surprised.  

Someone let BC know he can stop Googling now, too...

Let me see here.. I post an article from a news agency, and you suggest it's BS and ask for the source.. I give you the source, and you're still not satisfied.. Frankly, I'm confused as yo what you want. More articles? Articles in English? What is it?

[GQBlues]

New York Times - May 2010:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/world/europe/04adopt.html

"....The chairwoman of the parliamentary committee on family and children, Yelena B. Mizulina, spotlighted what she said was a shocking statistic: Russia has more orphans now, 700,000, than at the end of World War II, when an estimated 25 million Soviet citizens were killed.

Ms. Mizulina noted that for all the complaints about the return of the boy, Artyom Savelyev, by his adoptive mother in Tennessee, Russia itself has plenty of experience with failed placements. She said 30,000 children in the last three years inside Russia were sent back to institutions by their adoptive, foster or guardianship families.

“Specialists call such a boom in returns a humanitarian catastrophe,” she said.

She reeled off more figures. The percentage of children who are designated orphans is four to five times higher in Russia than in Europe or the United States. Of those, 30 percent live in orphanages. Most of them are children who have been either given up by their parents or removed from dysfunctional homes by the authorities...."

LOL. more...

<<Indeed, while Russia has its share of social problems, the large number of orphans stems in part from a policy that does not place a high value on keeping families together. The Russian government spends roughly *$3 billion annually on orphanages* and similar facilities, creating a system that is an important source of jobs and money on the regional level — and a target for corruption....>>

($3 billion for roughly a million orphans? LOL. What a country! +/- $1,000/child per year for food, care and medical attention? Less than 3 bucks/day? And the Egyptians are complaining? ROFLMAO. Talk about Child Abuse!)

<<...As a result, it is in the interests of regional officials to maintain the flow of children to orphanages and then not to let them leave, child welfare experts said. When adoptions are permitted, families, especially foreign families, have to pay large fees and navigate a complex bureaucracy.

“The system has one goal, which is to preserve itself,” said Boris L. Altshuler, chairman of Right of the Child, an advocacy group in Moscow, and a member of a Kremlin advisory group.

“That is why the process of adoption in Russia is like going through the circles of hell,” he said. “The system wants these children to remain orphans.”

LOL. Ahhh! Those evil, evil Americans! I agree with you and your government, possum. Russia should deal with their own problem by themselves. They do indeed do a fine job of it.

You must be just pink with pride, eh? 

[possum]

LOL. Ahhh! Those evil, evil Americans! I agree with you and your government, possum. Russia should deal with their own problem by themselves. They do indeed do a fine job of it.

You agree that Americans, along with other foreigners, should continue to adopt Russian children? Because that's what I believe.. I think you are confusing me with somebody else.

[GQBlues]

You agree that Americans, along with other foreigners, should continue to adopt Russian children? Because that's what I believe.. I think you are confusing me with somebody else.

Yah know...I use to. But the more these crap coming out of people and Russia, the more I am beginning to strongly believe Russia really need to first deal with their own social problems before they go bash others.

For now, I am beginning to believe these foreign adoptions out of Russia need to stop. Or at the very least, from the US.

[BC]

New York Times - May 2010:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/world/europe/04adopt.html

In all the negativity, there are some bright spots.  From your article:

Despite the horror stories recounted about Russian orphanages, social welfare experts say that conditions in many are not terrible; some are excellent. The more pressing issue is the warehousing of young children in large-scale facilities, which experts say can hold back their social and intellectual development.

Certainly no one here is painting rosy pictures GQ, but dwelling on the negative aspects alone does no good either.  Neither is anyone objecting to placement of a child in a qualified, supportive family environment anywhere on the planet.

Yah know...I use to. But the more these crap coming out of people and Russia, the more I am beginning to strongly believe Russia really need to first deal with their own social problems before they go bash others.

For now, I am beginning to believe these foreign adoptions out of Russia need to stop. Or at the very least, from the US.

Your beliefs are a stark reality..

Just as it seems difficult to find translate numbers in reports about the situation in RU and come to a consensus if a positive or negative trend is building, it's difficult to evaluate what's behind the downward trend in adoptions from all countries to the US while numbers are increasing other countries, IT for example.  I mentioned this a few pages back without any response..  Here's the source again  http://adoption.state.gov/news/total_chart.html  Do you have any ideas why there is a 45% drop in support of international adoptions to the US?  Isn't that part of a 'total equation' or 'see the forest' concept?

[GQBlues]

In all the negativity, there are some bright spots.  From your article:

LOL. I supposed picking fly pshyt out of peppers may cause a bit of an occasional pause we can term a 'bright spot'. Considering the gist of this thread, if it isn't ironic it would be hilariously compelling...

Certainly no one here is painting rosy pictures GQ, but dwelling on the negative aspects alone does no good either.

Irony at it's finest, BC. Isn't that notion what started this thread to begin with in which both you and Boethius were a bit stuck on the negative aspects of US adoption despite the far more than obvious overwhelming 'success' of US adoptions of Russian children. Are you sure you don't suffer a case of...pot...kettle...black?

Just as it seems difficult to find translate numbers in reports about the situation in RU and come to a consensus if a positive or negative trend is building, it's difficult to evaluate what's behind the downward trend in adoptions from all countries to the US while numbers are increasing other countries, IT for example.  I mentioned this a few pages back without any response..  Here's the source again  http://adoption.state.gov/news/total_chart.html  Do you have any ideas why there is a 45% drop in support of international adoptions to the US?  Isn't that part of a 'total equation' or 'see the forest' concept?

Why is that so difficult with you? It isn't difficult for me. Where you see a downward trend for the time period you specified, I see a leveling trend. Like I said, especially for Russia, after crap like this thread and Russia's and Russians' silly antics alike, I hope these adoptions from the US stop completely - and sooner than later. All these children can all go to Italy, Norway and Canada, yah know...

That 2009 12,753, as far as I'm concerned now, is 12, 753 too many.

But if those numbers are worthwhile and pressing for you to speculate on, then stop beating around the bush and speculate. This is the perfect thread for it.

[ECOCKS]

I agree that it probably isn't so much a dropping in US adoptions as it is other countries absorbing supply as the general world economy has leveled/tightened in the last few years among the Top 20 countries or so. Of course, Africa still lags, but as Europe/Australia/Canada's economies and standards of living have closed proportionately on the US we see that people in those countries have reached out more to the international adoptions. An additional US factor might also be that our family dynamics have changed a bit and the "newness" of adoption has worn off resulting in a bit of a downtick.

Personally, I believe the orphanages of the FSU are as much of a tragedy as the situation in Africa. If my wife and I were in a different place with life, work and family structure I'd love to adopt (carefully) but doubt that she would ever be willing. We're at a different niche in life now.

[BC]

LOL. I supposed picking fly pshyt out of peppers may cause a bit of an occasional pause we can term a 'bright spot'. Considering the gist of this thread, if it isn't ironic it would be hilariously compelling...

Has a positive or negative trend been established?  Not yet IMHO, but yes I can and do hope things are improving.

Irony at it's finest, BC. Isn't that notion what started this thread to begin with in which both you and Boethius were a bit stuck on the negative aspects of US adoption despite the far more than obvious overwhelming 'success' of US adoptions of Russian children. Are you sure you don't suffer a case of...pot...kettle...black?

Absolutely not, especially when the kettle was not black, but instead one that maybe needed a little polishing based on the facts at hand.  The issue was more whether or not there was a desire to polish at all.

Why is that so difficult with you? It isn't difficult for me. Where you see a downward trend for the time period you specified, I see a leveling trend. Like I said, especially for Russia, after crap like this thread and Russia's and Russians' silly antics alike, I hope these adoptions from the US stop completely - and sooner than later. All these children can all go to Italy, Norway and Canada, yah know...

That 2009 12,753, as far as I'm concerned now, is 12, 753 too many.

But if those numbers are worthwhile and pressing for you to speculate on, then stop beating around the bush and speculate. This is the perfect thread for it.

I hope you noted that the number 12753 was derived from US adoptions worldwide and not just RU.  

[Boethius]

LOL. I supposed picking fly pshyt out of peppers may cause a bit of an occasional pause we can term a 'bright spot'. Considering the gist of this thread, if it isn't ironic it would be hilariously compelling...

Irony at it's finest, BC. Isn't that notion what started this thread to begin with in which both you and Boethius were a bit stuck on the negative aspects of US adoption despite the far more than obvious overwhelming 'success' of US adoptions of Russian children. Are you sure you don't suffer a case of...pot...kettle...black?

Irony on top of irony.  I suppose you missed my point, made more than once, that the overwhelming majority of adoptions of Russian children by Americans are positive?  Or do you just wish to focus on what you perceive is negative?

It's not a case of pot/kettle.  It is merely noting that despite all the success stories, there are still holes in the system.  Seventeen (now confirmed) dead children is seventeen too many.   Given that adoption agencies are supposed to make unannounced home visits, and that most of these children were abused for some time before their deaths, something is amiss and needs to be addressed.  Making improvements to save lives should be the focus, rather than spurious indignation for pointing to flaws in the system.

Similarly, BC's point is not about Russia good/America bad.  The focus on comparisons is an irrelevant distraction.  Neither I, nor BC, is suggesting the Russian system is superior.  My original point was intended as a counterbalance to the expressed proposition that everything is fine.   

[Gator]

I know an AW who adopted a young Russian boy.  He is a very happy boy, and she has given him the medical attention he needed and was missing in Russia.  

I don't know if this long thread mentions the fact that Russian government does not allow foreigners to adopt healthy babies.  Thus an issue more important than the few reported cases of mistreatment : does the Russian government provide proper health care to  children who are not adopted?

A long time ago I dated a UW medical doctor.  She wanted children, and I said "not for me" but I would be happy with an adoption.  She said that orphaned children have many health problems, mostly because of mothers who were smoking, drinking alcohol and/or taking drugs.

[BC]

I agree that it probably isn't so much a dropping in US adoptions as it is other countries absorbing supply as the general world economy has leveled/tightened in the last few years among the Top 20 countries or so. Of course, Africa still lags, but as Europe/Australia/Canada's economies and standards of living have closed proportionately on the US we see that people in those countries have reached out more to the international adoptions. An additional US factor might also be that our family dynamics have changed a bit and the "newness" of adoption has worn off resulting in a bit of a downtick.

Personally, I believe the orphanages of the FSU are as much of a tragedy as the situation in Africa. If my wife and I were in a different place with life, work and family structure I'd love to adopt (carefully) but doubt that she would ever be willing. We're at a different niche in life now.

E,

Quite possible, the tail end of the baby boom might be another contributing factor.. more or less an 'aging out'.

Africa, yes another problem, even worse when one considers aids as one of the major causes of orphans and hunger, which of course leaves no orphans.

[ECOCKS]

Agreed on baby boom effect as part of changing family dynamics.

[possum]

I don't know if this long thread mentions the fact that Russian government does not allow foreigners to adopt healthy babies.  Thus an issue more important than the few reported cases of mistreatment : does the Russian government provide proper health care to  children who are not adopted?

That's not entirely true, Gator.. There is no law that prohibits the adoption of healthy babies by foreign nationals. However, the MoE routinely tries to "stick" foreign couples with "defective" babies, and many referrals are turned down for health reasons.. Most couples don't want the hassle, though, and accept the first referral that comes along.

[BC]

That's not entirely true, Gator.. There is no law that prohibits the adoption of healthy babies by foreign nationals. However, the MoE routinely tries to "stick" foreign couples with "defective" babies, and many referrals are turned down for health reasons.. Most couples don't want the hassle, though, and accept the first referral that comes along.

Actually it means kids that are not likely to be adopted in RU.. which is much the same as qualifications of a US orphan to be adopted by an overseas couple.

[possum]

Actually it means kids that are not likely to be adopted in RU.. which is much the same as qualifications of a US orphan to be adopted by an overseas couple.

I understand.. I'm saying there's a way around it, but it takes time.

[BC]

I understand.. I'm saying there's a way around it, but it takes time.

Yes, but 'reciprocity' does play a big role in international dealings, not to be ignored.  Those that expect a 'pristine' child in international adoptions should think twice or thrice.. and that includes children from practically all countries.