Women's Day -should I?

[Saltheart]

I agree, Loathe is too strong of a word, hesitant is more fitting.  Of course, my family is spread all across the country so that makes things a bit more difficult.

No, this trip would be just for her to come visit and for us to spend time together...probably spend some time in my "local" living environment (SoCal) and then spend a week or so traveling and seeing different things.  She has a tourist visa up through July actually, so we can definitely get some solid time in and my time is very, very flexible.  After that, I figure we can meet in Mexico very easily and of course, I will need to goto the FSU and meet her family, friends, etc.,..  I figure if it works out well there will be plenty of time to see family, etc..  I think we're both of the thought that it will take many trips before we know if this is something we want to dive into full bore.  Need to go through the obligatory argument, etc.,

Yeah, so far, so good.  She is very balanced, more-so than I am really, and just all around "normal" from what I can gather.  It's really helpful she's so well traveled, her insight into the states and other western countries is spot-on and her expectations seem very healthy.

Her personal situation is decent in Russia, has an apartment, makes pretty good money for there as I understand it (600-800 a month) , has a super, super flexible position, etc.. on that level she is a bit unusual I think but I don't have much to compare it against.

I'll keep you posted.

-SH

[Saltheart]

If a woman whom I haven't met held it against me for NOT sending flowers before meeting her, then meeting her or having further conversation with her is utterly unnecessary AFAIK. If a woman I know *expected* flowers from me in exchange for her continued interest and favor, I'll tell her to take a long hike around the rim of Balkai.

The first time I sent my wife flowers while she was still in Russia - BEFORE we even met - she asked the delivery person information and source of the service. When she found out how much the service cost, the next time we spoke she thanked me well but then VERY carefully explained how despite how much she appreciates it that I should refrain from doing this again.

Interestingly enough, I agree with much of what you've said.  If I felt there was an expectation, I would have nothing to do with it.  In fact, I suspect there might be more of a reaction of what your wife said to you later.  I mean, I know she will love it deep down, but I think one part of her too will feel like it was unnecessary....she appears to have little problem with calling me on my sh'it.  Which I dig.  Early, when it was still very light and I was just dipping my toe into it... I made the mistake of trying to impress her with some of the things I had done, etc., and she called me on it quick-like...was really cool and very refreshing.  She's feminine, but reflective, deep, and direct and very, very real...  I'm not at a loss for words usually but sometimes I find myself in a position of, "Oh sh't" - this is one smart lady.  It's been a lot of fun.  I'm really looking forward to the meeting.

-SH

[Lily]

Just curious, Saltheart. Did you received an answer on your question about sending flowers and / or small gift to the girl?

[Saltheart]

Hi Lily,

An answer?  Not sure what you mean... my initial question (kind of silly in hindsight) was whether or not to send something to the two other ladies in her home...mom/sister.

I wound up sending 15 Roses and a BIG box of chocolates lol.  She will get them tomorrow sometime I hope.

-SH

[Gator]

I kept it on and now my wife partcipates in it as well. I started at 8% of my annual salary and is now at 10% (in addition to wifey's contribution). Not much but I had maintained it through all these years.

You say, "Not much."  Wrong, it is "much."  Very admirable, in fact.

[GQBlues]

Interestingly enough, I agree with much of what you've said.  If I felt there was an expectation, I would have nothing to do with it.  In fact, I suspect there might be more of a reaction of what your wife said to you later.  I mean, I know she will love it deep down, but I think one part of her too will feel like it was unnecessary....she appears to have little problem with calling me on my sh'it.  Which I dig.  Early, when it was still very light and I was just dipping my toe into it... I made the mistake of trying to impress her with some of the things I had done, etc., and she called me on it quick-like...was really cool and very refreshing.  She's feminine, but reflective, deep, and direct and very, very real...  I'm not at a loss for words usually but sometimes I find myself in a position of, "Oh sh't" - this is one smart lady.  It's been a lot of fun.  I'm really looking forward to the meeting.

That's good to know Salty...she sounds like a kewl gal...

Be careful not to buy into these hype...you need to have something in you, about you worthy enough for these women's admiration and desires...

To give you an idea what life was like for me before I got married...allow me to show you a made of me...  

[Saltheart]

Hahaha!  Love it!!

[Nat]

Bunk.

If a woman whom I haven't met held it against me for NOT sending flowers before meeting her, then meeting her or having further conversation with her is utterly unnecessary AFAIK.

Honey, she wouldn't hold it against you, it's just with such an attitude you're not likely to win the competition among other guys who would do it (if there is any). Imagine this situation: a guy from the USA, who she's never met, who considers himself to be in an exclusive relationship with her (the profiles on dating sites were deleted, right?) and who knows about the holiday does nothing about it. Maybe it'll be ok and she will think it's just a mentality issue and won't pay attention to that. And maybe some high school friend will appear and bring her flowers. And she'll be excited, and start thinking how romantic Russian men are and how not romantic American men are, and maybe she's making a mistake bounding with a guy who doesn't show his affection Unfair? But if there's a girl in a nice hot dress and a girl in baggy pants, who will you chose? The one who shows her availability to relationship, right?

[Anotherkiwi]

...But if there's a girl in a nice hot dress and a girl in baggy pants, who will you chose? The one who shows her availability to relationship, right?

Funnily enough, the one who is causing the tingles for me at the moment without even trying is a lady in her 40s whose profile pictures feature nothing racier than a pretty summer frock (knee length) and a knitted tee shirt (different photo)!  Way too early to even think about flowers, as we've only exchanged a couple of letters, but I would probably send them if I knew her better.

[GQBlues]

Honey, she wouldn't hold it against you, it's just with such an attitude you're not likely to win the competition among other guys who would do it (if there is any). Imagine this situation: a guy from the USA, who she's never met, who considers himself to be in an exclusive relationship with her (the profiles on dating sites were deleted, right?) and who knows about the holiday does nothing about it. Maybe it'll be ok and she will think it's just a mentality issue and won't pay attention to that. And maybe some high school friend will appear and bring her flowers. And she'll be excited, and start thinking how romantic Russian men are and how not romantic American men are, and maybe she's making a mistake bounding with a guy who doesn't show his affection

Now I know you're not seriously meaning that YOU measure the depth of a man's resolve by whether or not he sends you flowers, do you?

Besides, if she is that type of a woman, then she isn't much of a loss for me to waste a nano second pondering over about, yes?

You wouldn't want me to measure your worth by what you had given me compared to all the others, do you? Had I solely applied that sentiment when I dated Russian women in Russia, I won't be happily married with a wonderful woman from Russia today.

Unfair? But if there's a girl in a nice hot dress and a girl in baggy pants, who will you chose?

If only you can see the pics posted by those I chose to write to before compared to the one my wife had posted with her profile, you won't be asking me that question.  

[ML]

Bingo, Nat!  You have it exactly right.   I think a guy who is by nature greedy is not going to be successful in a long term relationship.   When dating (and yes, in advance of dating), I never skimped in showing my affection and interest.

Interesting to note that after a few years of marriage to a  FSUW, that even true blue AM start misusing the word greedy!  :-)

[Saltheart]

For the record, I'm not sure she knows I'm even aware of Women's Day.  She had wished me well on Men's Day (never mentioning there was a women's Day) to which I asked in the next email if there was the equivalent of a Mother's Day or Valentine's Day, but I had also asked so many other questions she never actually answered that particular one.  Regardless, I think she will be pleasantly surprised.  And yes, we've both deleted our profiles and have agreed that this is exclusive.  Of course, the actual meeting will determine things from there.

Hope the florists there are reliable . Guess we'll know soon enough!

[JR]

The effort will be appreciated. I still say it isn't about who you are or aren't, what she does or doesn't expect. It's about showing respect towards an important tradition of hers. Don't see how is can go wrong. You'll know soon enough))

[Saltheart]

Yes, I certainly will...tried to hang on skype long enough tonight for them to show up, but I was falling asleep, haha...so, I'll know in the morning.  We set the date today for 2nd week of April - for 2 weeks here in the states.

[Nat]

The effort will be appreciated. I still say it isn't about who you are or aren't, what she does or doesn't expect. It's about showing respect towards an important tradition of hers. Don't see how is can go wrong. You'll know soon enough))

Thank you, normal, non-weird perception of the situation at last

[SMS60]

Thank you, normal, non-weird perception of the situation at last

You being a woman confirms my suspicion. Men should not take relationship advice about women from women.

Many women think in terms of romance novels and fairy tales. Most of the time the "wishing in life"  that their  "perfect fairy tale romances"  will come true are not normal. It goes against what is normal in most relationships.

I would think a clear thinking women would take a step back and evaluate if she received "you are my love" type gifts from a man she has never met in person.

I do know if a man met a local lady on match.com and sent flowers before he ever met her she would most likely run. I think it is something that very seldom happens. Its not normal.

But I will say international dating is not normal either. So who knows ???

Salty, I'm not saying it was wrong but be careful with going over board before you meet face to face.

[vwrw]

I wound up sending 15 Roses and a BIG box of chocolates lol.  She will get them tomorrow sometime I hope.

Your lady will be very pleasantly surprised. I remember I felt so good when I got flowers and candies on 8 March from my darling.  The unexpectedness of the gift added excitement to my day and made me really happy.

You do not have to send anything for the female relatives of your lady.

[vwrw]

I would think a clear thinking women would take a step back and evaluate if she received "you are my love" type gifts from a man she has never met in person.

I do know if a man met a local lady on match.com and sent flowers before he ever met her she would most likely run. I think it is something that very seldom happens. Its not normal.

Sending flowers and chocolate with  a “Have a happy 8 March!” note is not the same as sending flowers and chocolate with "You are my love" note. In first case, the man would score a lot of points, in second case, he might lose a lot of them.

It is not correct to compare local on-line dating with international on-line dating. Rules, norms and procedures differ for them.

[SMS60]

It is not correct to compare local on-line dating with international on-line dating. Rules, norms and procedures differ for them.

Point taken, Im a firm believer in the so called natural order of things. Especially when it comes to relationships. I think the man should proceed slow and be patient. It will help him decide if the lady is right for him.

Flowery type words in conversation and gifts without meeting face to face is a form of manipulation. It makes it "foggy" of seeing the real person you are communicating with.

Keep in mind this has been talking and e-mailing of less than 30 days.... thats all.

[Saltheart]

More like 6 weeks but point taken.  It's kind of at the point now where we see the foundation of a real relationship happening, and communicating like this could go on forever which would be detrimental, so we want to get together ASAP to see if it really is as real as it's both feeling for us, and if it's not, let's call a spade a spade and move on.

Further good point on flowery words and other BS, it certainly is a form of manipulation...I'm more prone to that than she is...she is refreshingly direct and brutally honest...a lot of the "rules" I'm used to don't seem to apply.  So, I'm going to remain teachable.  My best thinking got me in some of the jams I've gotten myself into occasionally so I certainly don't have all the answers.

[GQBlues]

If and when your relationship is consumated, then whatever both you and the woman agree to be important to both of you, are yours alone to cultivate.

IMO, to believe there's an unwritten rule you must strictly adhere to every step of the way with women of another culture whom you haven't yet met, despite your conviction and belief, "just to fall in their favor or else"...then dance into the wind and breathe all that it hurls upon your fate, grasshopper.

[Muzh]

You being a woman confirms my suspicion. Men should not take relationship advice about women from women.

Many women think in terms of romance novels and fairy tales. Most of the time the "wishing in life"  that their  "perfect fairy tale romances"  will come true are not normal. It goes against what is normal in most relationships.

Boy, oh boy. That's the biggest mistake we men make. How often do you see a male friend who was blindsided with a divorce lawsuit? None of his buddies saw that coming. Why? Because he was thinking that women should NOT live a life in terms of romance novels and fairy tales and they should be practical because that is normal.

I think the man should proceed slow and be patient. It will help him decide if the lady is right for him.

So let's say that the man decided the lady is right for him, who has the last word if the relationship should continue? The man? Boy, better wake up.
 
IMNSHO, Nat had it 100% correct and many guys should pay heed to those words. That is, if you want your relationship to go "until death do us part."

Don't believe me? Ask any old fogie who's been married to his sweetheart for more than 50, 60, even 70 years.

I've been married to my wife for 10 (11 this June) years and our relationship today is hotter than when we met. Why? See Nat's comments above regarding showing of sweet nothings, aka, romance novels.

Everyone is his/her own world and there are people who are NOT into romance and are more practical. But I can guarantee you that the majority of ladies are suckers for romance and will do anything for her man if he romances her, repeatedly.

[GQBlues]

IMNSHO, Nat had it 100% correct and many guys should pay heed to those words. That is, if you want your relationship to go "until death do us part."

Don't believe me? Ask any old fogie who's been married to his sweetheart for more than 50, 60, even 70 years.

...and how many of those couples were AM/FSUW MOBers?

[Saltheart]

If and when your relationship is consumated, then whatever both you and the woman agree to be important to both of you, are yours alone to cultivate.

IMO, to believe there's an unwritten rule you must strictly adhere to every step of the way with women of another culture whom you haven't yet met, despite your conviction and belief, "just to fall in their favor or else"...then dance into the wind and breathe all that it hurls upon your fate, grasshopper.

Remaining "teachable" and open-minded is far different than caving or compromising core beliefs or principles.

On a side note, the flowers and chocolates were really well received.  I think it meant alot to her.  I can only imagine if I was to receive say a handwritten letter or something in the mail from her, even though it's a small gesture, it would have lot of value when you're starting to care for someone and yet can't be together...those small gestures suddenly take on a new meaning and lend something tangible to the experience.  Of course, this is subjective to however "practical" someone is i imagine...I've been on both spectrums ...too much heart, too much intellectualizing ...and actively try to stay in the middle...not always successfully.

[ML]

Everyone is his/her own world and there are people who are NOT into romance and are more practical. But I can guarantee you that the majority of ladies are suckers for romance and will do anything for her man if he romances her, repeatedly.

There are many (not saying I am part of the group) who would argue, with good evidence and reasoning, that the real key to success with many (most) women, is 180 degrees opposite of what you have written.  " . . . will do anything for her man if he romances her, repeatedly."

i.e. The more a man treats a woman like a queen (or some such) the more she will kick him in the teeth (or elsewhere) and take him for granted.  The more indifferent the man is to the woman, the more she will chase and woo him.