should I or shouldn't I?

[ML]

My definitions:

A prostitute is paid by the "trick."  

A woman being sponsored is paid a monthly stipend, and she has a continuing albeit not enduring and probably not fulltime relationship with the man (who may already be married).  

A wife is in an enviable power position:  she has 50% of the money in the marriage and 100% of the vagina.

The prostitute says:  Are you finished yet?

The mistress says: You finished already?

The wife says:  Beige . . . yes I think we will paint the ceiling beige.

[SFandEE]

are you translating the word for me? because i do know both words. 

Nyet Mies   I would like to join you in some popcorn tasting--mine will have butter please

[SMS60]

Some immigration forms and or the "process" refers to the petitioner as a sponsor. Not a john and his prostitute

[Misha]

Some immigration forms and or the "process" refers to the petitioner as a sponsor. Not a john and his prostitute

Yes, but we are discussing the term "sponsor" as understood by Russians and other in the FSU. If a woman a Russian date site writes that she is looking for a "sponsor" she isn't looking for someone to sponsor her immigration to her own country 

[Vaughn]

In this context - the USA slang (and perhaps other nations' too) would be Sugar Daddy.

[mies]

Nothing to do with labels, just calling a spade a spade. If a man wants to pay for sex, fine, but lets not confuse this with marriage  

So we are back to square 1.
How is sex in marriage different from sex outside of marriage?

your words do sound like men "paying" in marriage is different than men paying outside of marriage.  I am trying to understand where is the core to this phenomenon

[mies]

Nyet Mies   I would like to join you in some popcorn tasting--mine will have butter please

tell me day and time, and bring your lady along. I'll be coming with my husband 

[Misha]

So we are back to square 1.
How is sex in marriage different from sex outside of marriage?

Clearly, mies, you don't understand what I am trying to convey. I am saying that there is a difference between consensual sex when both partners want sex and sex that is paid for. The former includes sex between people who are married and people who are not married. It can be a husband and wife; it can be a boyfriend and a girlfriend, it can even be between two strangers who have mutually decided to have a one night stand. I am distinguishing this sex that is not based on a monetary transaction with that sex that is a commercial transaction whether it be a client paying a prostitute or a man paying a monthly "allowance" to a woman in order to guarantee sex.

[Daveman]

Clearly, mies, you don't understand what I am trying to convey. I am saying that there is a difference between consensual sex when both partners want sex and sex that is paid for. The former includes sex between people who are married and people who are not married. It can be a husband and wife; it can be a boyfriend and a girlfriend, it can even be between two strangers who have mutually decided to have a one night stand. I am distinguishing this sex that is not based on a monetary transaction with that sex that is a commercial transaction whether it be a client paying a prostitute or a man paying a monthly "allowance" to a woman in order to guarantee sex.

All sex is paid for.. only the currency varies... 

[mies]

Clearly, mies, you don't understand what I am trying to convey. I am saying that there is a difference between consensual sex when both partners want sex and sex that is paid for. The former includes sex between people who are married and people who are not married. It can be a husband and wife; it can be a boyfriend and a girlfriend, it can even be between two strangers who have mutually decided to have a one night stand. I am distinguishing this sex that is not based on a monetary transaction with that sex that is a commercial transaction whether it be a client paying a prostitute or a man paying a monthly "allowance" to a woman in order to guarantee sex.

i understand what you are trying to convey.
what i do not understand is why do you presume that "sex+money" in marriage is always based on love, and "sex+money" outside of marriage according to you and some other men here, never contains love. How exactly does this work?
Please, explain

[Aloe]

I just found a great website (it was on my news website) for anyone looking for a sugar babe or a sugar daddy, no need to travel so far away, plenty of sugar babes right at home  
http://www.whatsyourprice.com/

[Gator]

i understand what you are trying to convey.
what i do not understand is why do you presume that "sex+money" in marriage is always based on love, and "sex+money" outside of marriage according to you and some other men here, never contains love. How exactly does this work?
Please, explain

IMO.....

..... I don't believe it is so black and white.  Too many variables.  Marriage is less of a determinant than mutual feelings.  Sex between two people in true love is fantastic, regardless of whether they are married.  

Sex in marriage especially after many years together can at times be nothing more than generously satisfying the other's physical urges, the type of sex one would expect in a lustful, sponsored relationship without love.   Been there, done that.  A marriage endures even though the fireworks have diminished because there is so much else involved in building a life together: kids, mutual friends, conversation, humor, extended family, hobbies,  house, career..... Money had little to do with it, provided there was enough to avoid stress.  

For those questioning this, you must envision many, many years. 

[Aloe]

I should clarify that I am not saying by any means she is a prostitute. Problem is that in the west many would consider this an act of prostitution. Not many people here are familiar with women of the former Soyuz soliciting for sponsors. To tell you the truth, this is not the first time I've seen this from an FSU site. The other site I saw was extremely graphic and very distant from what you described earlier.

Hey, i just gave a website above with 509 pages of women looking for sugar daddies, and most of the women i've looked at are from the US  So surely it isn't something people are unfamiliar with over there.

[Aloe]

My understanding of a few scenarios.

1.  A young student can not afford her university tuition, etc. and a sponsor helps her.  After graduation she says poka and starts her career.

The best universities are free in Russia, and people who can't afford tuition do not go to paid universities in the first place, cuz there are plenty of free universities ranging from crappy where you don't need to do anything at all to top universities of the country.

My understanding of why women in any country look for sugar daddies is because they want easy money and a lifestyle a sugar daddy can possibly provide. I.e. trips to expensive restaurants, expensive vacations, cash to take care of yourself and get nice clothes and other nice things. It isn't because those women are in dire need, it's because it's easy money.

[Misha]

i understand what you are trying to convey.
what i do not understand is why do you presume that "sex+money" in marriage is always based on love, and "sex+money" outside of marriage according to you and some other men here, never contains love. How exactly does this work?
Please, explain

You see, I believe that an ideal marriage should be based on a number of factors including mutual love and respect. I also believe that women are equally capable of desire as men and that women also have physical and emotional desires that are fulfilled through sex. Yes, there are some marriages where women and sometimes men exchange sex for money, but I would wager that such marriages will usually not last and will quickly disintegrate should money become tight. I do not believe that the ideal should be cast aside solely because not all are capable of achieving the ideal.

As for the idea that love can coexist with "sex+money" I would say that the test of love occurs when money and or sex are curtailed. Will the woman continue the relationship should the man be incapable of paying her? Will the man continue supporting the woman financially should she stop having sex with him? If the answer is no, then the "love" in question was illusory.

[Misha]

A marriage endures even though the fireworks have diminished because there is so much else involved in building a life together: kids, mutual friends, conversation, humor, extended family, hobbies,  house, career..... Money had little to do with it, provided there was enough to avoid stress.  

Very nicely put Gator! Of course, I agree.

[mies]

The best universities are free in Russia, and people who can't afford tuition do not go to paid universities in the first place, cuz there are plenty of free universities ranging from crappy where you don't need to do anything at all to top universities of the country.

Aloe, you are a bit too far from reality. Probably because you lived with your parents while going to university, and did not have to care about paying rent, buying food and supplies, and other things of that sort.

My stipend during undergraduate years was 14 UAH/mo. At that time, the rate UAH:USD was approximately 1:3. So my stipend from the university was a little less than $5.
The bed in a dormitory room shared with 3-4 more people was UAH13/mo.
Monthly unlimited transportation card at that time was approximately UAH12-15.
A liter of milk/kefir was about 1UAH. 1 lbs jogurt was 1.5UAH. The cheapest meat was approximately UAH12-15 per kg. The cheapest cheese was 10UAH/kg.

My parents were able to support me financially, and I started working in my freshman year. Now, I had a classmate, a boy, whose parents were divorced, his father did not pay child support (refused to do it, and there was no way to enforce court orders), and the boy also had a 12yo sister. Mom was not earning much. The boy was eating plain boiled potatoes 365/year. Now, he was very smart and very talented in math, so he made a schedule of tutoring math to fellow students, and in the end of classes every day he was habitually saying "so who is providing my dinner tonight?" In a spirit of sharing, of course we were feeding him dinner with or without his tutoring services. Living in a dormitory is very alike to living in a friendly commune. But it was tough for him. Good side - he did not care much about clothes, and wore same pants and same sweater (regularly washing them) for at least 2-3 years of college. Shoes were a bit more problematic because they were leaking in wet weather, but his mother could not afford to buy him new/better ones.
Now imagine a girl whose family is in the same financial situation, maybe is not as smart in math, but still managed to enter the university in big city.

[mies]

You see, I believe that an ideal marriage should be based on a number of factors including mutual love and respect. I also believe that women are equally capable of desire as men and that women also have physical and emotional desires that are fulfilled through sex.

I am glad we found a common denominator. My question to you: should not ANY relationship be based on those factors, inside or outside or marriage? Why do you think that there is no love outside marriage? Because you do not offer your love and respect until you marry someone?
If you believe women are capable of desire, why do you think that only women in marriage are capable of desire, and unmarried women are not?

[mies]

IMO.....

Gator, thank you. Very interesting and well-reasoned opinion.

[Misha]

Why do you think that there is no love outside marriage?

You keep saying that I think this and I think that even though I said no such thing. Yes, I do believe that it is possible for love to exist outside of marriage. Yes, some couples can love each other without being married. However, I would question the "love" shared by a prostitute and her client or a woman and her sponsor (and by sponsor I mean the Russian concept of sponsor, not the sponsorship of an individual for immigration). My main point is and remains that marriage should not be debased by equating it with either prostitution and/or the typical sponsorship relationship as understood in Russia 

[Misha]

Because you do not offer your love and respect until you marry someone?

P.S. Ideally, you should only marry someone you love, so your assumption about what I believe is false. Clearly, you get to know someone, love grows and then you marry them or form some kind of commitment... Yes, some people get married in the hopes that love will grow, but that is a risky proposition.

[mies]

You keep saying that I think this and I think that even though I said no such thing. Yes, I do believe that it is possible for love to exist outside of marriage. Yes, some couples can love each other without being married. However, I would question the "love" shared by a prostitute and her client or a woman and her sponsor (and by sponsor I mean the Russian concept of sponsor, not the sponsorship of an individual for immigration). My main point is and remains that marriage should not be debased by equating it with either prostitution and/or the typical sponsorship relationship as understood in Russia  

Misha,
the "prostitute" is the definition that for some reason was given to a girl no one of us knows. And men jumped into assuming this and that about her. And maybe they are right, or maybe they are wrong.
You keep saying that we should not mix what happens outside of marriage, and what happens inside of marriage, and I do not see what happens so special at the wedding, that fundamentally transforms the relationship between a man and a woman.
Why do you think the love between woman and "sponsor" is not possible? Didn't you sponsor your wife at some point? But she loves you, right?
So sponsorship itself is not what distinguishes true love from unlove/business/prostitution. Don't you think so?

I fully agree with you that normal relationship require something else than financial support. But why do you assume that this "something else" only exists in official marriage? What if people cohabitate but never marry officially? They have children together, live together 15 years, man earns more so he supports his woman. Is she still a prostitute?

Or presumably there is a woman, who has a sponsor, and she loves him. She would be happy to marry him, but he does not want to marry her. Is she a prostitute? Based on your and Kuna's definition - she is. Because she receives money and offers sex. Even though I personally think that prostitution implies not only monetary exchange, but also multiple partners. And this hypothetical woman in my example has only one partner/sponsor, for many years. And if at some point her sponsor will agree to marry her - what happens then? Will she automatically stop being a prostitute and start being an honest woman because it is OK to give money to a wife, but not OK to give money to girlfriend/lover/sugar babe/etc? Do you see my point?

[GQBlues]

Mies, there is a big difference. You pay a prostitute to leave.

Not really. It's just like a divorce (post-marital settlement, eh).

The irony in this discussion is, what many, if not most wife-seekers ask when they first start this wife-seeking mission?

"How much is this going cost"?

[Misha]

Didn't you sponsor your wife at some point?

Again, you are purposefully confusing two different concepts. There is the "sponsorship" required by immigration and the "sponsorship" as defined in Russia whereby a man will pay an allowance to a woman to be his "sugar baby." Yes, I sponsored my wife for the purposes of immigration, but no I was not her "sponsor" in the Russian sense. If she had put on her site that she was looking for a "sponsor" I would never have asked her out on a date and if she told me that she was going out for me solely for material support, I would never have married her either. I understand that English is not your native tongue, but I do not know how to explain this any more clearly so you will be able to understand. 

[Misha]

But why do you assume that this "something else" only exists in official marriage? What if people cohabitate but never marry officially?

Did you even read my post? I said that yes, it was possible for a man and a woman to love each other in a committed relationship even if they are not married