What is your wifes profession

[Zhena]

I think you re modest,Lily I think your english is good enough. A prononciation will be trained very quickly. I met the russians who have almost no accent after living here about 10 years...and really an accent is not so bad thing. I have seen a doc dont remember from what arabic country-with a horrible accent,who spoke very slowly but you could understand him. I suppose he was a good doctor if they let him work

[Jazzyclassy]

It is very interesting phenomenon indeed  that Russian people with high education can sweep the floor in America, when some poorly educated Americans in Moscow can be at leading  positions in some very developed companies, just long term observation.

[2tallbill]

I don't mean any hereditary discrimination or lack of recommendations, but an unsufficient professionalism due to their level of English being not up to the level of a highly educated American, including an accent free prononciation. For instance, I have been told that my English (mainly spoken) is not sufficient to work in legal field in the U.S.

Lilly don't listen to whoever told you that your English is not good enough to work in the Legal profession.
I live in the San Francisco bay area and there are many many immigrants, from many countries with difficult
accents. Maybe in Oshkosh Wisconsin your accent might be a disadvantage, but not in a metropolitan area.

Just my two kopecks,

Bill

[Misha]

It is very interesting phenomenon indeed  that Russian people with high education can sweep the floor in America, when some poorly educated Americans in Moscow can be at leading  positions in some very developed companies, just long term observation.

The same thing happens in Canada: highly educated immigrants working as taxi drivers and the like. The problem: getting their credentials recognized in Canada. A foreign-trained doctor in most circumstances will find it very difficult to be certified. The same is true for most professions.

Another problem: understanding how to find a better job. I have helped a number of Russian immigrants by writing them a good resumé and coaching them as to how to answer questions in an interview and helping them understand what kind of questions will be asked. I helped one woman land a job she wanted simply by rewriting her resumé and helping her prepare for the interview. This included doing some online research on the company where she wanted to work and preparing for the standard interview questions. Being well prepared for an interview can easily compensate for factors such as an accent.

[Jet]

2tall and Zhena,

Your words to Lily are very nice, but you both have to take a moment to understand that the legal field is entirely dependent on impeccable language skills. One missed, added, or wrong word can change the entire meaning of surrounding paragraphs. It is a very difficult field for a non native speaker to break into, even if their English seems perfect at a conversational level. There is also the whole other world of "terms" (words with limited or sometimes completely different meanings than their standard dictionary definitions). For example "legal permanent resident" means one thing in Immigration Law, but means something completely different in Tax Law. Another fun one is "person" with regard to the law, a corporation is a "person", a bank is a "person", and the Department of Homeland Security is a "person", while you, are not necessarily one 

It's not impossible to achieve membership to the Bar in the US, but it is probably more difficult than most people think for someone who speaks English as a second language, even if they had achieved this status in their country of birth.

[SANDRO43]

Another fun one is "person" with regard to the law, a corporation is a "person", a bank is a "person", and the Department of Homeland Security is a "person", while you, are not necessarily one

IINM, according to Maritime Law a ship, too, is a "person" and can be treated accordingly, with some odd variations, though: IIRC, years ago, a treasure hunter obtained custody of an offshore sunken ship by producing in court some valuable cargo therefrom, and having the sheriff "arrest" them.

It may be the same company (Odyssey Marine Exploration) that is now battling with Spain over the rights for a sunken galleon they located (www.ocala.com/article/20080125/NEWS/801250343/1002/NEWS).

[Zhena]

2tall and Zhena,

Your words to Lily are very nice, but you both have to take a moment to understand that the legal field is entirely dependent on impeccable language skills. One missed, added, or wrong word can change the entire meaning of surrounding paragraphs. It is a very difficult field for a non native speaker to break into, even if their English seems perfect at a conversational level. There is also the whole other world of "terms" (words with limited or sometimes completely different meanings than their standard dictionary definitions). For example "legal permanent resident" means one thing in Immigration Law, but means something completely different in Tax Law. Another fun one is "person" with regard to the law, a corporation is a "person", a bank is a "person", and the Department of Homeland Security is a "person", while you, are not necessarily one 

It's not impossible to achieve membership to the Bar in the US, but it is probably more difficult than most people think for someone who speaks English as a second language, even if they had achieved this status in their country of birth.

Jet ,nobody said it will be easy and the job offers will fall on you like a rain Of course,you have to work hard. But this is possible,and many successful russians would confirm that. Who wants-they get what they want. If you think English is so difficult-you probably didnt try to learn Russian. My english is bad,but all I know I learned myself.And I can say that english is very easy language.

[Jazzyclassy]

I agree with Jet here as yes English language is not that narrow as one might think , there are so many Englishes so to say :Business English , Conversational one, High style english so to say , using of some bookish words and so on. And yes if you put some word instead of another the whole content of the agreement or of a purpose of this or that text will be different. It is just such a great responsibility for an interpreter as well, that is why not so many people want to be one, as one wrong word translated in some official docs and you can be in some prison or it will be a huge scandal.


I also understand what you are talking about Gabaub and I've always knew that it will be very difficult from the start for a non native speaker to be able to find some nice work ,of course it is possible but it will take ages and so many studyings to do that .

The same thing happens in Canada: highly educated immigrants working as taxi drivers and the like. The problem: getting their credentials recognized in Canada. A foreign-trained doctor in most circumstances will find it very difficult to be certified. The same is true for most professions.

Another problem: understanding how to find a better job. I have helped a number of Russian immigrants by writing them a good resumé and coaching them as to how to answer questions in an interview and helping them understand what kind of questions will be asked. I helped one woman land a job she wanted simply by rewriting her resumé and helping her prepare for the interview. This included doing some online research on the company where she wanted to work and preparing for the standard interview questions. Being well prepared for an interview can easily compensate for factors such as an accent.

[Jazzyclassy]

Jet ,nobody said it will be easy and the job offers will fall on you like a rain Of course,you have to work hard. But this is possible,and many successful russians would confirm that. Who wants-they get what they want. If you think English is so difficult-you probably didnt try to learn Russian. My english is bad,but all I know I learned myself.And I can say that english is very easy language.

Yeah I can not but agree with Zhena here as well,  Russian language is the waaaaaaaaay too difficult , English in comparison with Russian it is just  to eat a piece of cake, the same as Spanish which is so so easy

English people just took several words and invented millions of definitions to each of it. And in Russian language there are variety of so many different words of course some of them have several meanings but rarely , mostly these are all individual words if I may put it so.

[SANDRO43]

And I can say that english is very easy language.

I totally concur. Of all the languages I studied/sampled (some 20 of them, so far), English is by far the easiest (simplest verb structure, syntax, etc.) 

Jazzy, polysemy and 'trade jargons' are not a specificity of English, they occur in ANY language.

[mischief]

Yeah I can not but agree with Zhena here as well,  Russian language is the waaaaaaaaay too difficult , English in comparison with Russian it is just  to eat a piece of cake, the same as Spanish which is so so easy

English people just took several words and invented millions of definitions to each of it. And in Russian language there are variety of so many different words of course some of them have several meanings but rarely , mostly these are all individual words if I may put it so.

You are obviously not a linguist to state that. There is no such thing as an easy language.  And English is very rich language and comparing it to Russian is like comparing apples and oranges... Just try reading books and if you want to challenge yourself try Shakespeare ...

[mischief]

Your words to Lily are very nice, but you both have to take a moment to understand that the legal field is entirely dependent on impeccable language skills. It's not impossible to achieve membership to the Bar in the US, but it is probably more difficult than most people think for someone who speaks English as a second language, even if they had achieved this status in their country of birth.

Agree... law school is my long time dream... the more I work at it the more complicated it seems due to English.... never thought I'd have such a hard time considering that I have a degree in English and live in the US for 5 years already... then again maybe I just do not work hard enough...

[SANDRO43]

There is no such thing as an easy language.

Granted, but some may be much easier than others, depending on their structure: for instance, no declension for nouns/adjectives (except -S for most noun plurals), very simple conjugations (an -S for 3rd person singular present tense, -D/-ED for most pasts/participles) allow a student to become articulate much faster, IMO.   

if you want to challenge yourself try Shakespeare ...

You'd be equally challenged reading a 400-y.o. text in ANY language .

[Jazzyclassy]

You are obviously not a linguist to state that. There is no such thing as an easy language.  And English is very rich language and comparing it to Russian is like comparing apples and oranges... Just try reading books and if you want to challenge yourself try Shakespeare ...

As I told already to my mind english is much more easier than Russian , I never told it is easy as it is , obviously you need to read the post before you spit out your evil disgusted opinion

Obviously you are linguist so enlight us

[Misha]

As I told already to my mind english is much more easier than Russian , I never told it is easy as it is , obviously you need to read the post before you spit out your evil disgusted opinion

Obviously you are linguist so enlight us

In some ways, Russian is a much easier language than English: the spelling is much more standard than English and it is much easier to identify the grammatical role that a word plays in the language.   

[mischief]

Granted, but some may be much easier than others, depending on their structure: for instance, no declension for nouns/adjectives (except -S for most noun plurals), very simple conjugations (an -S for 3rd person singular present tense, -D/-ED for most pasts/participles) allow a student to become articulate much faster, IMO.   

Sandro, it might be not a problem for you since Italian (and all Romance languages) has lots of features that are shared with English... but then again there is a difference between speaking like a 5 year old and educated adult..

The main difficulties to me are: it's very hard to pronounce many of the diphthongs accurately; always have problems with the use of the definite article and last but not least - spelling, I think it's not that easy even for the native speakers...

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, it might be not a problem for you since Italian (and all Romance languages) has lots of features that are shared with English... but then again there is a difference between speaking like a 5 year old and educated adult..The main difficulties to me are: it's very hard to pronounce many of the diphthongs accurately; always have problems with the use of the definite article and last but not least - spelling, I think it's not that easy even for the native speakers...

Mischief, the delights of English spelling (and diphthongs, too ) were discussed some time ago here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6383.0, also mentioning which portion of English (a Germanic language) is not a problem for those raised in a Latin-derived language, if you're interested .

[mischief]

As I told already to my mind english is much more easier than Russian , I never told it is easy as it is , obviously you need to read the post before you spit out your evil disgusted opinion

Jazzy, I do have a tendency to express myself categorically and I can understand that sometimes it might be taken as an attack or something... honestly, between two babies hanging on me I just don't have time to think my responce through... I would not recommend to take any expression of different opinion as a personal insult...

[Jet]

Jet ,nobody said it will be easy and the job offers will fall on you like a rain Of course,you have to work hard. But this is possible,and many successful russians would confirm that. Who wants-they get what they want. If you think English is so difficult-you probably didnt try to learn Russian. My english is bad,but all I know I learned myself.And I can say that english is very easy language.

Zhena,
Please don't misunderstand. I was not "putting down" Lily or you or Bill. I was only pointing out that although Lily's English is flawless here on the forum (and it really is!) it is very possible that it will take additional advanced study on her part to bring it up to the level required by our legal system. I never said that I think she can't do it, I am absolutely sure she can.

FWIW I have been studying Russian for quite some time and my ability has progressed to almost the level of a 4 yr old  Any language is more difficult for an adult to learn, and Russian frustrates the heck out of me regularly (you may have noticed Eduard corrected my wrong tense of the word 'pravda' in another thread a few days ago  ).

[myrddin]

Legalese is a language unto itself, and not an easy one.

And Jet, so far I can only dream of speaking Russian as well as a 4 year old!

[Zhena]

Agree... law school is my long time dream... the more I work at it the more complicated it seems due to English.... never thought I'd have such a hard time considering that I have a degree in English and live in the US for 5 years already... then again maybe I just do not work hard enough...

Maybe... ;)Also,the law language is very specific and the most difficult to understand.

[Zhena]

Zhena,
Please don't misunderstand. I was not "putting down" Lily or you or Bill. I was only pointing out that although Lily's English is flawless here on the forum (and it really is!) it is very possible that it will take additional advanced study on her part to bring it up to the level required by our legal system. I never said that I think she can't do it, I am absolutely sure she can.

FWIW I have been studying Russian for quite some time and my ability has progressed to almost the level of a 4 yr old  Any language is more difficult for an adult to learn, and Russian frustrates the heck out of me regularly (you may have noticed Eduard corrected my wrong tense of the word 'pravda' in another thread a few days ago  ).

No,I understood you correctly ;)Do not worry. I understand your point of view. But believe me,peoples fears are bigger than the real problems they meeting. And those fears dont let to many people just go and do what they would like to do-cos they dont believe they are able to. In fact,some percent of the women who married  middle class americans start to earn more than their husbands within 2-5 years. How they do that,with their non-perfect english-a mystery

[Lit_1nce]

In Lily's case, her English is good enough that she would probably have no problem entering one of the "career colleges" for paralegal.. 4 to 6 months or so.. learn the terminology.. It's not a "degree", but many have placement assistance as well.. and it's a "foot in the door".. and I am sure that any prior experience, even in another country, is favorable when employers are comparing graduates of these courses.

Requirements for these courses are usually a HS diploma, and an entrance exam (and of course 4 to 6 grand usually financed)

Same could be done with many medical professions (although entry level).. but again to learn the terminology would be difficult if you didn't attend such a school.. (or even higher education here)  and this terminology is like learning a new language even for native English speakers... so that's pretty even ground. 

Just a thought.

[Lily]

Lit_1nce,
you are right, it's one option with paralegal courses. Some Russian qualified lawyers who get in the U.S. have done it.
Another option is to pass BAR/BRI preparation courses and to sit for a bar. Some U.S. states allow the foreign attorneys with proven track record of practice abroad, and with an available U.S. Master's degree to sit for a bar. If I pass the bar, I am eligible to practice law in that U.S. state...

But again, to be eligible for something and to be marketable for something are the hell different things. The core would be what can I actually do MUCH better than my American peers with same credentials.

Last but not least, I am not sure that I'll ultimately land in the U.S.

[Lit_1nce]

But again, to be eligible for something and to be marketable for something are the hell different things. The core would be what can I actually do MUCH better than my American peers with same credentials.

Last but not least, I am not sure that I'll ultimately land in the U.S.

Lily,
Sorry, I was not trying to sell the US to you.. You were brought up as an example, and I just wanted to demonstrate a path that could be taken. I also know, that to go from lawyer to paralegal would suck after all the time it took to get to that level.. but as a path to becoming a "local" lawyer, it's not such a bad move.. you learn the terminology, how things are done.. and you get some local work experience (while studying for BAR), make contacts for a job when you do.. or even get promoted in the firm you start out at.. employers love to tell stories of the employee who worked their way to the top, and how they like to promote from within.

As to what you could do MUCH better than American peers... probably many things !!  I don't know what your specialty is in law.. but if I was looking for a law firm to deal with immigration from Russia, or setting up a business in Russia, to find a law firm that had a lawyer who came from Russia would be very appealing.

Again, sorry if I appear to be selling the US.. I'm not.. sometimes I just go wild with my problem solving skills