Dr. Phil Show Attacks International Marriages Friday

[Doll]

 

"Cute old goats"

[Admin]

Where did you get this statistic, Daveman?
Well, the "trick" is mostly about the stipulations regarding Green Card. Women often stay married till they can get it.
How are the numbers in 5-8-10 years marriages? After they get GC? Even if they are married (many of them) , it is because of kids to share (custody) and some economic issues.
Seriously, read this Russian forum- it is stuffed with sad stories.
Dr. Phil is really close to the reality.

Doll,

The most definitive study ever conducted regarding cross-cultural marriage and divorce may be found here -- http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html.



There is simply no better information anywhere.

That study places the divorce rate in cross-cultural marriages at 40.76 % - which is less than the domestic divorce rate of 50%. In fact, one could conclude that it is nearly 25% less than the domestic divorce rate - depending on how one wants to construct the equation (choice of numerator and denominator). In any case, it is undisputable that this statistical survey demonstrates cross-cultural marriages fail at a lower rate than domestic marriages.

BTW - would it surprise you to learn that an earlier study commissioned by the INS (now USCIS) concluded something similar?

- Dan

[Mark Davis]

Here's what my wife and I posted on YouTube:

[Mark Davis]

Doll:


I apologize that some of your comments were removed from my business site.  It's not normal for us to allow posting from other Commercial Members, and your are still listed as the US contact for Kherson Fiancees.  However, I personally loved the exchanged and would enjoy speaking with you on interviewing you sometime.  You posted that you felt you husband was just like those on the Dr. Phil show and that you know hundreds of stories like those represented that are complete disasters.

Call me sometime and I'd love to see what I can do to learn more about your business and your experience.  I wouldn't let John Adams post on my business site either.  Sorry.

[Daveman]

Where did you get this statistic, Daveman?

from the only actual statistical analysis ever conducted on the topic (as opposed projected statistics extrapolated from fora hearsay proliferated through the emotionalism of sad story repetition). 


 read it here:
http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p01.html  (link taken from the menu at the bottom of the forum page)

Well, the "trick" is mostly about the stipulations regarding Green Card. Women often stay married till they can get it.
How are the numbers in 5-8-10 years marriages? After they get GC? Even if they are married (many of them) , it is because of kids to share (custody) and some economic issues.
Seriously, read this Russian forum- it is stuffed with sad stories.
Dr. Phil is really close to the reality.

but still hearsay, similar to this forum being seemingly more populated with the sad failure stories than the happy successes. Most who are happy just vanish and go on about their lives while those train wreck Engineers tend to vent about it (and of course, draw the most responses and longest debates - thus the most attention).  Happiness isn't very interesting and mostly goes unnoticed and even ignored making it also rather unmemorable. 


Speculation, yes, but also human nature.  With the choice of stories opposing statistical data, I think the data is probably closer to reality (within a small margin of error).

[OlgaH]

Seriously, read this Russian forum- it is stuffed with sad stories.
Dr. Phil is really close to the reality.

Would be interesting to see the changes in the statistics if they participated. In our county with 40,000 pipulation I met tree Russian/Ukraine women. Two of them are now divorced and the third one is crying like a beluga (a Russian expression), she is stuck in her unhappy life because of baby.I also met a few Eastern women working in Dillards and Macy's, they were divorced. One of them told me that I got lucky with my husband.

[Doll]

Admin, I "studied" this statistics.
Did you look at the part "Marital Longevity"?

[Doll]

.

[Daveman]

...

BTW - would it surprise you to learn that an earlier study commissioned by the INS (now USCIS) concluded something similar?

- Dan

Oooooops! (hey, where IS that lady? I miss her!)  It seems I stand corrected.  I thought the one in our link was the only one.  My apologies pals and gals.

[Admin]

Admin, I "studied" this statistics.
Did you look at the part "Marital Longevity"?

Of course I read it.

What is your point?

- Dan

[Jumper]

Doll-
 it's only fair to ask where your statistics come from?

If people believed all they read on this or any other  forum ,they wouldn't get out of bed.


daveman-
if it was a brigade of babushka's there wouldn't have been a Dr Phil show on the subject of international marriage , and everyone knows it.Especially Dr phil and his shows producer.

it's simply entertainment ,played to the lowest common denominator,
for advertising dollars.

The babushka network outside any group of flats could do a similar show with domestic cases,
 and much more detailed!!!
The sunflower seeds empower their insights to new levels.

         

[Doll]

As you see, Admin, in this graph, the 1-st year of marriage is quite low in divorces (before the couple applies for AOS and the woman gets her first GC). It is much higher when it is 2-nd and 3-rd year (when women can "selfpetition"), it is VERY high on year 3 (when they get their 10-year GC).  All the rest of number is about the remaining married. As this MOB business is relatively young , here is the Math trick.
Apples to apples, please.

[Boethius]

No but he did leave the inference by Rachael unchallenged, which for a man in his position, is the equivalent of saying it himself. 

Was Rachael the daughter of one of the men?  If so, that guy had been beaten,  kidnapped, and held at gunpoint after a "date", and she was referring specifically to her father, so she wasn't out of line, and required no response.  It's basically a counselling show, it's not there to provide balance.

As for "There are a disproportionate number of men like those represented seeking foreign women from economically disadvantaged countries (compared to the numbers at home). "   I'm not really convinced that is backed by the numbers in the divorce survey.  If that were true, it would seem that the divorce rate would be much higher rather than ten percent lower than the national average.   I would say that our forum here is more indicative of the cross section average players.  Sure, guys are seeking "more attractive" than most can get at home, and even younger, but that's a far cry from what was represented on the show.  IMO, it's the attractiveness of the women involved which causes most of the animosity.  Envy is an insidious monster lurking behind the curtain.

Spare me on the "attractiveness" canard.  Most people really don't care who strangers marry.  If you read the RW forums, you will read about some very strange men, and these women often put up with crap few AW would tolerate.  But then, they don't have the support systems that most AW  have.

I have read two competing statistics to Dan's statistics.  One was by a "MOB" site, owned by an AM, a retired psychologist living in Moscow.  He surveyed his clients, and came up with a divorce rate of close to 90%.  That survey was done in 2003 or 2004, as I recall.  A sociology journal in Russia also did a study, based solely on RW foreign men marriages, and found a similar divorce rate.  I think it was done around the same time.  Another sociology journal studied RW marriages and found the most successful foreign marriages were to men from what they termed "Protestant" countries - they meant Nordic countries, Dutch Belgium, Germany, and The Netherlands.  I can't provide links to the two divorce studies, as it has been years since I read them.

Now, the two studies I noted may be skewed because they included couples who married during the worst Russian economic times.  However, I don't think any study can be conclusive unless it is long term, and includes all couples.  Most American marriages break up at around the 14 year point, so that should be the minimum for inclusion in the stats as well. 


 

[Doll]

Doll:


I apologize that some of your comments were removed from my business site.  It's not normal for us to allow posting from other Commercial Members, and your are still listed as the US contact for Kherson Fiancees.  However, I personally loved the exchanged and would enjoy speaking with you on interviewing you sometime.  You posted that you felt you husband was just like those on the Dr. Phil show and that you know hundreds of stories like those represented that are complete disasters.

Call me sometime and I'd love to see what I can do to learn more about your business and your experience.  I wouldn't let John Adams post on my business site either.  Sorry.

I won't, sorry.
It is not a fair game- when you b-ch Dr. Phil for what you are even better. Or did I take your OP wrong? You want opinions?
 

[Admin]

Oooooops! (hey, where IS that lady? I miss her!)  It seems I stand corrected.  I thought the one in our link was the only one.  My apologies pals and gals.

Dave,

The legislation that preceded IMBRA was the Illegal Immigration Reform and Responsibility Act of 1996 (repealed in its entirety by IMBRA 2005). The INS at the time commissioned a broad-ranging study, and among its many conclusions they addressed the cross-cultural divorce rate as follows:

It is interesting to note that, based largely on data provided by the agencies themselves (along with the Commission on Filipinos Overseas report cited above),     marriages arranged through these services would appear to have a lower divorce rate than     the nation as a whole, fully 80 percent of these marriages having lasted over the years     for which reports are available.

Source: http://www.goodwife.com/index.php?pid=18

- Dan

[Doll]

 

Most American break up at the 14 year point, so that should be the minimum for inclusion in the stats as well. 

Agree. Apples to apples.

[Admin]

As you see, Admin, in this graph, the 1-st year of marriage is quite low in divorces (before the couple applies for AOS and the woman gets her first GC). It is much higher when it is 2-nd and 3-rd year (when women can "selfpetition"), it is VERY high on year 3 (when they get their 10-year GC).  All the rest of number is about the remaining married. As this MOB business is relatively young , here is the Math trick.
Apples to apples, please.

Doll,

You are citing the Marital Longevity stat to suggest it conflicts with the Divorce rate stat - but it does not. The Marital Longevity statistic is composed of ONLY those who indicated they are divorced - that 40.76 percent mentioned earlier. There is no inconsistency.

Having said that - yes, you are correct that marital longevity of cross-cultural marriages when they fail, seem to fail at an earlier point than Boethius cited midpoint of 14 years for domestic marriages. In fact, if you delve into the report, you will find a stat you will probably resonate with as to the primary causes for divorce split by gender.

Now - as to your point of the "MOB business" being "relative young" I take firm exception. People finding partners from distant locations has been a phenomenon that has occurred over the millennia. While true that the internet has made global communications more accessible, there are documented accounts and studies of people pursuing partners from afar for a VERY VERY long time.

- Dan

[Admin]

Agree. Apples to apples.

No, you are completely wrong about that. We spent a great deal of time and effort - and, if you read the report you would know, involved recognized academia as well as engaged a professional independent organization in development of the study.

I have read two competing statistics to Dan's statistics.  One was by a "MOB" site, owned by an AM, a retired psychologist living in Moscow.  He surveyed his clients, and came up with a divorce rate of close to 90%.  That survey was done in 2003 or 2004, as I recall.  A sociology journal in Russia also did a study, based solely on RW foreign men marriages, and found a similar divorce rate.  I think it was done around the same time.  Another sociology journal studied RW marriages and found the most successful foreign marriages were to men from what they termed "Protestant" countries - they meant Nordic countries, Dutch Belgium, Germany, and The Netherlands.  I can't provide links to the two divorce studies, as it has been years since I read them.

Now, the two studies I noted may be skewed because they included couples who married during the worst Russian economic times.  However, I don't think any study can be conclusive unless it is long term, and includes all couples.  Most American marriages break up at around the 14 year point, so that should be the minimum for inclusion in the stats as well. 

Bo,

I had heard rumors of such reports long ago, and one of the things we did initially in preparation for the survey was to conduct an exhaustive search for studies that preceded us. If those had been available it would likely have resulted in us either (a) abandoning the project, or (b) trying to extend the earlier effort so that we could tie in to their effort in some way. In fact, that was, and remains, the intent with the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce - to allow it to be used by others in the future so that it can be seen how the stats change over time.

Still, to the best of my knowledge, there is no other study of this sort and almost certainly none conducted on this scale. To that end, there is nothing - at this time - any more reliable.

- Dan

[Ade]

I have to ask; are people talking about all the men and women involved in the MOB industry or the incredibly tiny subset that actually get married? There is rather a large difference. I dare say, given the supposedly very large numbers of people looking, there is a fairly large likelihood that there's a damn good reason that most don't end up married... Call it weirdness, unrealistic expectations or anything else you want but my guess is that it probably looks something like what was shown on Dr Phil... And if these are 95+% of the people then aren't Dr Phil's participants pretty much representative of the majority?

[Admin]

I have to ask; are people talking about all the men and women involved in the MOB industry or the incredibly tiny subset that actually get married? There is rather a large difference. I dare say, given the supposedly very large numbers of people looking, there is a fairly large likelihood that there's a damn good reason that most don't end up married... Call it weirdness, unrealistic expectations or anything else you want but my guess is that it probably looks something like what was shown on Dr Phil... And if these are 95+% of the people then aren't Dr Phil's participants pretty much representative of the majority?

In the case of the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce, it was restricted to married couples (or their equivalent in some countries).

- Dan

[Ade]

In the case of the Survey of Cross-Cultural Marriage and Divorce, it was restricted to married couples (or their equivalent in some countries).

- Dan

Yes Dan, I understand that but I meant generally pertaining to this thread. Aren't these generalisations that are being made about all  participants in the MOB scene not just the ones that managed to get married?

It seems to me that perhaps the people that perceive themselves to be, uh, "normal" are a bit upset by being associated with the "weirdos" which are probably in the majority.

[Mark Davis]

Yes Dan, I understand that but I meant generally pertaining to this thread. Aren't these generalisations that are being made about all  participants in the MOB scene not just the ones that managed to get married?

Ade,
I'd agree with you on this point: The continual use of "Mail Order Brides" by the media is an attack on anyone who is thinking about looking overseas for romance, not just the married couples. 


My reason for jumping into this is not so I'll be greeted with warm fuzzies by the media, but because the stereo-type is unjustified and should not go unchallenged.  Single men considering love overseas have enough to work through logistically and plenty of cautions from their 'well-intended' friends.  The impact of a "Dr. Phil" show on this topic will give fuel to the critics that may be echoed for years to come.


I can just hear some guy's sister is telling him not to go overseas because she saw this Dr. Phil show and only losers go and are thrashed by dishonest women.  At least we had a conversation so that guys can say, "Yeah, I know about that.  But there's a lot more to the story and it's what I want to pursue.  Thanks for your concern, sis.  But I've got to do what I feel is right for me."


That would be 'Mission Accomplished' for me.

[OlgaH]

I briefly looked through the posts on divorces and counted 21 members who was married to a FSU or Eastern woman and after divorced, there are probably more.

And many stories like below from members

 

Most of those women she initially met 5 years ago are now all divorced and eeking out an existence as a clerk in a convenience store and jealous as hell of my wife's success in the school teacher business.
 
 

She met a woman from Ukraine in her late 20's who married an American and moved here about 2 years ago with her two children.  From what she says, he was quite terrible and she divorced him about a month after arriving.  she now works in a restaurant for minimum wage.
 

She is in the USA now and getting divorced since her husband is now in prison.
 

[GoodOlBoy]

Even something as simple as "these are individual cases and are not representative of all men and women doing this but a small sample in a group thousands of normal relationships and marriages"..  any psychologist worth his credentials would have clearly made that distinction.

Give it up Daveman.
You are really pissing in the wind if you believe that the sorry losers televised on TV yesterday are in a "different boat" than the rest of us "normal" guys pursuing FSUW.
Unpleasant as it may seem, they (we) are ALL in the same boat (ship of fools??).
 
GOB

[Mark Davis]

• 400 pound guys spends $100,000 on a lung transplant for his girl then she dumps him - different boat
• Top one-tenth of 1% control freak treats his wife like a slave (Dr. Phil description and guy admits) - different boat
• Woman marries a man who makes her pay for heat in her own home - different boat

Anybody here in their boat?  I'm not.