Any single, un-attached guy in Kiev May 27-30?

[Admin]

Sorry for off topic. This phrase I remember in David Lean's movie "Doctor Zhivago" and I always was curious where Robert Bolt got the phrase from, because there is no such phrase in the novel by Boris Pasternak. 

No need to be "sorry." You are the one who started this debacle by dragging those AFA photos into the mix - you may as well crawl back into the muck and mire with the rest of us  .

- Dan

[OlgaH]

My opinion Dan, I don't think it's equal for the obvious reason. It's little wonder why such things as 'speed dating' doesn't exist in the FSU in the manner we know them here in the west.

I cannot comment on the manner of speed dating as I have never attended,  but it seems we have speed dating in Russia

in Russian
http://www.helloparty.ru/ru/index.php

in English
http://www.helloparty.ru/en/

[SFandEE]

I saw that it is being done in Kyiv as well.

[Misha]

Exactly.  RW have battlefield experience with real beasts - drunken RM.

LOL! Well put Gator and AJ. I concur.

[OlgaH]

No need to be "sorry." You are the one who started this debacle by dragging those AFA photos into the mix - you may as well crawl back into the muck and mire with the rest of us  .

- Dan

Dan, at least you  guys have a brisk debate, there are already almost three pages after I posted those photos  so I would not consider it to be a debacle but a natural flow of opinions  Thanks to Olga 

[Gator]

 
 

Sorry for off topic. This phrase I remember in David Lean's movie "Doctor Zhivago" and I always was curious where Robert Bolt got the phrase from, because there is no such phrase in the novel by Boris Pasternak. 

I too recall it  from Dr. Zhivago (Rod Steiger's character), and I don't read Pasternak.
 
These interesting sources about Russian quotes do not attribute it to Pasternak:
 
http://www.walterkoenigsite.com/RussianProverbs.html (except it says you find a Tartar, which makes more sense than peasant).  To keep this on topic, maybe Tartars danced in laps centuries ago.
 
http://www.vmcaa.com/russian.html   attributes it to Milla Jovovich.  That has to be wrong because she was born well after the film was produced.  Some young people claim to know everything. 
 
 
 
GO LIGHTNING!  Ahead of Boston Bruins 3-2 after two periods!!!!

[OlgaH]

http://www.walterkoenigsite.com/RussianProverbs.html (except it says you find a Tartar, which makes more sense than peasant).  To keep this on topic, maybe Tartars danced in laps centuries ago.

I think Tartar men as any men did not mind a lap dance along with belly dance even centuries ago  Centuries ago a lap dance was more popular among Russian noblemen then among Russian peasants especially during serfdom.

The proverb "Scratch a Russian, and you'll find a Tartar" can be found in Dostoevsky's novel "Teenager" more over Dostoevsky put it in French "Grattez le russe et vous verrez le Tartare". There is a supposition that the phrase came from France.

[GQBlues]

GQ you met several RW on your one and only WMVM trip.  I guess you did not meet enough if you feel that RW are being made to play a game they don't want to play.  This is not a life or death decision.  RW are survivors and if they never marry an AM, they will manage to live, and they will have plenty of fun times [and the vast majority of RW who sign up with a MOB site never marry].  A good RW has too much pride to want your sympathy.

I don't know Gator, I'm certainly not one those folks who term Russian women as 'survivors'. On the contrary, given the same level plain AWs do, they're just as equally capable in actions or beliefs, IMO.
 
But in terms of FSUWs involved in the MOB, it isn't too long ago during the most difficult post-Soviet time of the '90s, IIRC, FSUWs were tripping over one another trying to get their hands on the closest blue passport carrying traveller, no? The difference with today is clearly evident. So, to say otherwise I don't believe is being fortright. It isn't a coincidence that as Russia's economy grew, the MOB in Russia dissipated. Unfortunately I can't say the same about Ukraine even today.
 
I certainly don't disparage the MOB. How can I? My own mother, and myself, were clear benefactor of such a thing. I do believe however, making FSUWs seem as though they really are bigger than life by lustful foreign men do more of a disservice to these women in more ways than one. For me, I respect a typical, or atypical, FSUW as simply a woman like any other. No worldy patronizing adjective necessary.

[ML]

I don't go to night clubs, but  have seen some pole dancing, etc., in various movies and tv police shows, etc.

I must say the concept of 'lap dance' still eludes me.
To me, that conjures up that the woman is actually in the man's lap.
But I understand they are not in the man's lap and, in fact, I hear that actual touching may not be permitted.

So I am still in the dark as to why it is called 'lap dance.'

Anyone have the answer?

[OlgaH]

If I wouldn't have done this in my youth, and I presently wouldn't want my daughter to do this, I certainly wouldn't think it A-OK for someone else's daughter.

Boethius,

If I had a daughter I would have a problem with sleep knowing that my daughter is hanging out somewhere in the flats and night clubs with the absolutely strange men, looking for a husband among them, and most likely I would tell my daughter that there is more chances to meet a nut case or desperate man. I don't think the men who have at least a little bit more than 50% of common sense would use such method looking for a potential life partner. But it is just my own opinion. To each his own.

[GQBlues]

I cannot comment on the manner of speed dating as I have never attended,  but it seems we have speed dating in Russia.

Well now you see, like I said, given the same level playing field, FSUWs are like any other...   
 
What took you guys so long?

[OlgaH]

We have so called meeting clubs for singles since the Soviet time for people of different ages but usually for people after 30 and more

Here is one of them in Moscow
http://clubdvor.ru/klub_komu_za_30.php

and in Yekatyerinburg
http://www.uniqclub.ru/


Photos and videos of meeting evenings.
http://clubdvor.ru/gal.php

[Turboguy]

So I am still in the dark as to why it is called 'lap dance.'

Anyone have the answer?

Yes, I can understand why they call it a lap dance.  Sometimes it is better to be in the dark however.
 
Besides that my wife is in Russia and it might be better for me to not tap into my memory to try to explain it. 
 
Perhaps it will answer your question to say that they can touch you, such as sitting in your lap but you can't touch them.

[Gator]

I don't know Gator, I'm certainly not one those folks who term Russian women as 'survivors'.

   
 
I disagree.  I see them as survivors in the sense that they can persevere and remain functional despite severe hardships.  Just like the beautiful alpine flowers that survive the coldest winter.
 

   On the contrary, given the same level plain AWs do, they're just as equally capable in actions or beliefs, IMO.

Quite possibly RW are more capable.  RW have experienced hardships and obstacles that would have sent AW to a therapist for twice per week sessions.  Natural selection has eliminated those RW who could not cope or had no common sense.  As just one example, have you ever gone to a Russian school when classes are over?  Some of the tykes are met by their mothers but most walk home with their peers and without adults.  There are no traffic controls such as a crossing guard holding a stop sign.  Kids are on their own to cross the street, and the streets can be busy.  And anyone who has been to Russia knows that cars and not pedestrians have the right of way.
 
 

But in terms of FSUWs involved in the MOB, it isn't too long ago during the most difficult post-Soviet time of the '90s, IIRC, FSUWs were tripping over one another trying to get their hands on the closest blue passport carrying traveller, no?

 
 
Many did.  Nevertheless the "many" were a very small percentage of the total. 
 
 

The difference with today is clearly evident. So, to say otherwise I don't believe is being fortright.

Didn't say that, and I almost agree except that the MOB business is still active in Russia.
 

No worldy patronizing adjective necessary.

Exactly, so why are some people suggesting that FSUW need protection from agency owners?  FSUW can take care of themselves.  Those participating in coarse activity at socials are choosing to do so; they are not compelled to do so.  The desperate ones are perhaps believing that the alpine winter will never end and looking to be transplanted to warmer climes.  Yet many, many in the same situation are coping.   BTW, desperation was a big turnoff to me (I am no White Knight).

[Gator]

So I am still in the dark as to why it is called 'lap dance.'

Anyone have the answer?

 I don't know about the FSU; however, I live in Tampa, the World Capital of Lap Dancing. 
 
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=125815&catid=8
 

But I understand they are not in the man's lap and, in fact, I hear that actual touching may not be permitted.

The City of Tampa attempted to enforce an ordinance requiring 6 feet of separation.  The City lost.
 
The rules differ dependent upon whether the bar serves alcohol.  In clubs that serve alcohol, the woman must keep her breasts covered.  Some clubs cover only the nipples with clear medical tape, after first getting the nipples erect and hard (anyone want to apply for that job?).  No touching of breasts is allowed. 
 
In clubs that do not serve alcohol, complete nudity is allowed.  Touching is allowed but not the orifices.  The man must keep his clothing on, and Mr. Happy must stay inside the trousers.

[SFandEE]

I certainly don't disparage the MOB. How can I? My own mother, and myself, were clear benefactor of such a thing. I do believe however, making FSUWs seem as though they really are bigger than life by lustful foreign men do more of a disservice to these women in more ways than one. For me, I respect a typical, or atypical, FSUW as simply a woman like any other. No worldy patronizing adjective necessary.

Well said.

[Boethius]

Rubicon, I will try, but this is difficult because the Russian here is very concise, I have to find some verbs, and some of the words are slang, difficult to translate.  Perhaps Olga or possum can give it a go as well -

I sort of know a woman (because I act as a translator once in a while) and she made an accidental discovery.   A certain number of “perennial brides” who “don’t speak English and would like to learn”, and who “would like to get a foreign passport and visa” attend these functions, but it’s all a sham.  Lady X told me there’s a package price for the organizer and brides, and after bamboozling a foreigner, the organizer and the bride split the fee (I’m not sure how it works, but I think it’s) 50/50. 

So, the organizer  tries to gather as many “brides” as possible to those social meetings (in order) to create a large client base.  In reality, the “brides” are naive, and they’re not familiar with the subject.  So, I mean the arena/stage for the business is very good.  Do you really think those brides want to go abroad?   I am pretty sure the income here is bigger for them than it would be there.  Everybody who goes to those social meetings knows why they are going there and if you think 50/50 isn’t fair, nobody would ever go there.  I don’t really care what opinion those amoral Pokemon perverts from the West have of my country.  All of those pictures trigger laughter inside me, not derision.

[Rubicon]

Thanks, Boethius.  Your translation was excellent and pretty much what I expected.
Also quite funny, IMO.

[Boethius]

Dave, I never stated the girl in the picture was in danger.

Gator, I was not shocked.  I have attended village weddings.  However, saying "She can just leave" indicates a certain lack of knowledge of female psychology.  And, if you and AJ don't think that North American women face the same problems with drunken men in their own country, I have a bridge you may want to look at . . .

Ok seriously now, a little reality people?
 
Ukraine is rough and tumble,from a very early age on.
 If you actually think the average young woman growing up in a particularlty sexist, macho culture, doesn't know how to handle simple advances or that style of *grouping*.....
on the bus, the mashrutka, at the disco , at a party,
I think you've been drinking the wrong kool-aid.
They know how to handle men, they deal with men from a much more macho culture daily...
 
 
As far as having fun, I  think few in the world  know how to more than RM/RW.
 If you think you are visting a land of Puritans, you might want to check your history for where those people actually settled.
 
que Cyndi Larpers' Girls just wanna' have fu'huuuun..
 
Cindy might not be your kind of chick,
but for the sake of reality lets not pretend their arn't whole nations filled with her, and she's someones wife and mother.
 
 
I do think the Babushka's likely have the whole
*old rich guy with poor young girl* thing covered..
 
 
::tosses in some sunflower seeds for those who might need a bag:::::::::::::::
 
bon appetite
 
 
i've got mine, salsa flavored..
 

Ukraine is not puritan, but shortly before the collapse, while I was there, a couple in an adulterous affair were killed, when they fell through planks on a construction site during a noon time rendezvous.  Nobody, not their families, their spouses, not even their union, would take the bodies and bury them.

Can you imagine that happening in the U.S.?

One of my husband's married coworkers was sleeping with a woman who worked on their job (also married).  As their encounters were all at a shed located on the workplace grounds, everyone knew.  The man had been in two accidents.  His coworkers told him to stop sleeping with her, or by accident 3, he'd be dead.  Ukrainians are fairly superstitious, and, as much as they are not puritan, they're mostly not too removed from the village, they do have certain fairly ingrained views.

I also read your post to my macho husband, who lived in Ukraine (and Russia) for well over half his adult life, and he disagrees with you.  What he said was "A woman says "Hey, you're groping me!" and the guy will respond, drunkenly, "Dream on, bitch.  Bobyk zdokh ten years ago."

Yes, Ukraine is a macho culture.  Yes, women can be groped on subways/buses, though it is very rare in Central/Western Ukraine.  However, women face the same, even worse, in North America, and actually, far more often.  The difference in Ukraine, where it's not particularly common, is that a groper will be beaten by a husband/father/boyfriend/brother, and nobody, including the police, will say a thing.  I actually witnessed this.    It's far more common to be groped in village movie theatres than anywhere else in Ukraine.  In fact, that is why most villagers go to movies.

[Rubicon]

"It's far more common to be groped in village movie theatres than anywhere else in Ukraine.  In fact, that is why most villagers go to movies."

 

[Boethius]

Quite possibly RW are more capable.  RW have experienced hardships and obstacles that would have sent AW to a therapist for twice per week sessions.  Natural selection has eliminated those RW who could not cope or had no common sense.  As just one example, have you ever gone to a Russian school when classes are over?  Some of the tykes are met by their mothers but most walk home with their peers and without adults.  There are no traffic controls such as a crossing guard holding a stop sign.  Kids are on their own to cross the street, and the streets can be busy.  And anyone who has been to Russia knows that cars and not pedestrians have the right of way.

I'm not so sure of that.  People are the same, pretty much, world over.  How are the AW who lost loved ones in Joplin coping?  How about the mothers who are homeless, or who can't put food on the table?

http://www.christianpost.com/news/rising-hunger-trend-affects-1-in-4-us-children-41917/

[GQBlues]

I disagree.  I see them as survivors in the sense that they can persevere and remain functional despite severe hardships.  Just like the beautiful alpine flowers that survive the coldest winter.

Surely VAWA would disagree?
 

Quite possibly RW are more capable.  RW have experienced hardships and obstacles that would have sent AW to a therapist for twice per week sessions.  Natural selection has eliminated those RW who could not cope or had no common sense.

Until the day Russian women rise to stake their causes and claim their rightful place and proper recognition in their society, like AWs did in the US, then I'll readily agree with you as to their capability. Until then, I'll reserve my opinion on this matter firmly.
 

As just one example, have you ever gone to a Russian school when classes are over?  Some of the tykes are met by their mothers but most walk home with their peers and without adults.  There are no traffic controls such as a crossing guard holding a stop sign.  Kids are on their own to cross the street, and the streets can be busy.  And anyone who has been to Russia knows that cars and not pedestrians have the right of way.

LOL. You're basing your sampling from happy suburbia, USA Gator. I see no difference to your RW sampling from those living on skidrow or inner city kids of America. How many RWs do you know who can easily survive the mean streets of Detroit or South Central, LA?
 
Heck, it seems the midwest either gets blown down every year when tornado alley comes a'churning or the Mississippi decides to cry them a river, you certainly don't hear too may AWs running for therapy, do you?
 
But regardless, if walking along a busy chaotic streets of Russia defines survivalship and toughness to you, then I defer you to the ladies of Somalia, Sudan, Bangladesh, et al...or as near to us as South America. When I ran away from home and picked fruits and vegetables (Asparagus AHHHH!) along with some females, both illegal and citizens alike, during a usual San Juaquin Valley 110 degree summer, I am hard pressed to envision a single Russian woman who would've worked half the shift these women put on day after day. And interestingly enough, if you tell me there are those whom you know that can, the irony will be is, you will simply be proving my point.
 
Gator, you may have travelled the world and have seen many, many things when you did, but one thing you need to remember is this, you gazed upon the lives of the many from a traveller's eyes. I have lived half of my life from well below the bowels of some of our world's poor for months, years, and over a decade. I ate, slept, and sh!t where they did. I have lived the conditions of what some women have to live through, day in and day out, up close and personal. So trust me when I say "in relative comparison" understand that I know what I'm talking about.
 
Women of Russia, as do women of the world, are one and the same given the same rules of life and living. One no more survives life's challenges and difficulty than another, as a whole or on average.
 

Many did.  Nevertheless the "many" were a very small percentage of the total.

Which still doesn't retract from the fact 'many did'. 
 

Exactly, so why are some people suggesting that FSUW need protection from agency owners?  FSUW can take care of themselves.  Those participating in coarse activity at socials are choosing to do so; they are not compelled to do so.

I disagree. Why is it that 'socials' are far more prevalent in Ukraine today as it is, and/or as it was, in Russia? Because of Russia's 'improved' economy, many no longer 'have to' anymore. There's no denying this simple reality. Heck, I'd be hard pressed to find a 'social' of the same kind if I were to look for one in London or Stockholm, would you?
 

The desperate ones are perhaps believing that the alpine winter will never end and looking to be transplanted to warmer climes.  Yet many, many in the same situation are coping.

Sure and why not? What other 'viable choices' do they have? That's my point. The desperate ones is the object point of our discussion, is it not?
 

BTW, desperation was a big turnoff to me (I am no White Knight).

...and as with me.

[Boethius]

One big difference is the men who attend.  Jack is pretty picky about who he takes. 

I am not particularly interested in Jack or his business, Turbo, and you may be right in your views of Jack.  However, the first "cattle call" post in this thread doesn't particularly support the assertion that Jack is "picky" about who he takes. 

[GQBlues]

...However, the first "cattle call" post in this thread doesn't particularly support the assertion that Jack is "picky" about who he takes.

LOL. B-4! Bingo!

[Rubicon]

Surely VAWA would disagree?
   
Until the day Russian women rise to stake their causes and claim their rightful place and proper recognition in their society, like AWs did in the US, then I'll readily agree with you as to their capability. Until then, I'll reserve my opinion on this matter firmly.
 
LOL. You're basing your sampling from happy suburbia, USA Gator. I see no difference to your RW sampling from those living on skidrow or inner city kids of America. How many RWs do you know who can easily survive the mean streets of Detroit or South Central, LA?
 
Heck, it seems the midwest either gets blown down every year when tornado alley comes a'churning or the Mississippi decides to cry them a river, you certainly don't hear too may AWs running for therapy, do you?
 
But regardless, if walking along a busy chaotic streets of Russia defines survivalship and toughness to you, then I defer you to the ladies of Somalia, Sudan, Bangladesh, et al...or as near to us as South America. When I ran away from home and picked fruits and vegetables (Asparagus AHHHH!) along with some females, both illegal and citizens alike, during a usual San Juaquin Valley 110 degree summer, I am hard pressed to envision a single Russian woman who would've worked half the shift these women put on day after day. And interestingly enough, if you tell me there are those whom you know that can, the irony will be is, you will simply be proving my point.
 
Gator, you may have travelled the world and have seen many, many things when you did, but one thing you need to remember is this, you gazed upon the lives of the many from a traveller's eyes. I have lived half of my life from well below the bowels of some of our world's poor for months, years, and over a decade. I ate, slept, and sh!t where they did. I have lived the conditions of what some women have to live through, day in and day out, up close and personal. So trust me when I say "in relative comparison" understand that I know what I'm talking about.
 
Women of Russia, as do women of the world, are one and the same given the same rules of life and living. One no more survives life's challenges and difficulty than another, as a whole or on average.
 
Which still doesn't retract from the fact 'many did'. 
 
I disagree. Why is it that 'socials' are far more prevalent in Ukraine today as it is, and/or as it was, in Russia? Because of Russia's 'improved' economy, many no longer 'have to' anymore. There's no denying this simple reality. Heck, I'd be hard pressed to find a 'social' of the same kind if I were to look for one in London or Stockholm, would you?
 
Sure and why not? What other 'viable choices' do they have? That's my point. The desperate ones is the object point of our discussion, is it not?
 
...and as with me.

I agree with you GQ that many Russians underestimate how hard us Americans will work for an average wage.  Like you I grew up poor and did many different jobs.  My brother and I were roofers in High School and it gets a lot hotter than 110 degrees on a hot summer day up on a roof.  Try tearing off three layers of old roof at the same time with a pick axe and roll it up into a ball and than heave it into a dumpster.  That snip is extremely heavy.  Some days I loaded as much as 5,000 pounds of new material up three levels of scaffolding.  My brother now owns his own Roofing company and the only guys he can get who can handle the work and the heat day in and day out are Mexican.  He offered all of them legal assistance and they are all now legal citizens.  He has been in business for 21 years and most of his workers started with him 21 years ago.