Re: Why FSUW Look Abroad

[SFandEE]

BTW....Obama's Utopia!

?????


What do you prefer?  The Bush political machine utopia of warfare off the books, profit to Wall St. consequences to Main St., and horrifying trade and budget defecits


Quips at Obama or not to be done in a vacuum, too simple

[CanadaMan]

OK Muzh, we’re on the same page now!   
Gator gets it and so do you now.

I think you are taking issue by how it was said, not what was said.

Yup. I clearly don’t read enough of GQ’s posts as I should, or I would have known
not to take him too seriously.

 
I’ll know better the next time. 


BTW, did you start a post under the same name as this one yesterday by accident?

[Vincenzo]

Lets ask google why an accountant,  a secretary,  data entry or bank tellers salaries are equally low in  comparison to the west or w. europe , similar jobs?
because higher education is free*? (there's a big asterisk)
 
I have a friend that makes about $300 a month.

I know a few secretaries, tellers, and receptionists in the West. They earn minimum wages, drive very old cars, bring lunches from home and expect to be fired for any remark.

I've written to a plastic surgeon in Russia. She had everything: an apartment, a car, traveled abroad a few times a year.

Here is the difference:
A Russian doctor earns $300 a month, but her services are free.
An American doctor charges $300 for 10 minutes of her time and then goes to play golf. An auto worker who pays to the doctor, asks $50 per hour to build cars. However, a Chinese worker can build a similar car for $100 a month. What's the result? The American worker is unemployed.

I've been to the Ukraine. $300 there buy a lot.

[Jumper]

Vincenzo-
You're playing wild and loose with the exceptions to the norm, to make some  general case?
A Moscow  plastic surgeon really? are we to compare that now? to the average persons life living  in the west or in russia?

 So some secretaries in the west  make minimum wage? and drive old cars?
they make roughly $1200 a month.
Amazingly almost very few of them would trade that for making  $300 or less  a month,, and riding  a bus or marshrutka travel.
and you know, oddly enough, there isn't any *marrying  me just for a green card worries*
 for men in ukraine wanting to marry  a western woman.
 There are very fundamental reasons, isn't that the simplest part of all that?

Me? I could be happy living there and i'm not knocking the FSU countries.I see the differences and the good and bad points of both.

I was just in Vienna, and also Ukraine, if you cant tell the general differences.
I think  you have walked around  with blinders on.
By the way i was with a RW, and her friend who had relocated to Austria.
Real first hand experience living the FSU life, and a western european one.
  Care to know she felt about almost every aspect comparing cultures/places?
but you would first want to tell the single mother how much she actually got for child support as well right? (never a kopek in 7 years ,and no divorced friends of hers ever regularly either, but google says they get half,so it must be true?)


 $300 buys a lot there?
Ok ,go there and live on $900 for 3 months.
We'll assume you'd want at least a decent flat at resident rates. (not a western flat  mind you) So $225/month lease  would be a great find  in a provincial city (there might be a waiting list)
That leaves you $225  for food, transportation ,and any entertainment for 90 days.
So I surely hope $300 buys a lot.

Sure I could live on that there, and an awful lot of Ukrainians do,and even less.
no one was stating they can't?

So lets cut to the chase , what's your point?

If you've actually been to Ukraine, and think womens rights are on par with western europe or the west.. then we simply don't see the same.
 
 

[Sia]

I wonder how long can a person live on $ 300 a month while having a diploma of general practitioner and worked on a narrow specialty 6 years? What do you think? It is worth the money? Probably do not need to be unsubstantiated in his desire to hang a label on the women from the former Soviet Union in the fact that they are all criminals and liars and want to escape from the country all possible ways. And you, if they had seen his daughter and how she suffers and suffers from no justice, she would be willing to share such as life in the country in which all do not care?

[The Natural]

My quote:
 
"All his income will go to support his ex? No, nothing goes to support his ex, but to support their common children, which is only fair."
 

I think a Norwegian man has to support his ex-wife by law when she divorces him.

You're killing me Vincenzo. So based on something you read on a message board, you conclude this must be so. Even if someone who actually live there, say otherwise?
 
Then how come I don't have to financially support my ex? Of course because we did not have any children together. And how come it is so that the man don't have to make any more payments after the last child turn 16? Is it so in your thinking, that the ex-wife all of a sudden can cope on her own just because her child turn 16? Of course not, it's because the payment is made for the children and not the ex-wife.
 

But when he brings a Russian or Thai wife he can always threatens to divorce her if she isn't submissive. If he divorces during the first 3 years of their marriage, she'll be deported immediately.

Women who come here outside of the European Union needs to stay here legally for 3 years before they get permanent residence, yes. The reason they are permitted to come and live here in the first place is because they married a Norwegian citizen. Is it otherwise in USA? Are you saying that in USA, a woman can marry a US man, move to the country, divorce him the next week and still get permanent resisdence? Really?

[Boethius]

I don't know about the U.S., but in Canada, absent fraud (i.e. the non resident spouse entered into the marriage for the sole purpose of obtaining Canadian resident status), a foreign spouse becomes a permanent resident on landing in Canada.

[BC]

I don't know about the U.S., but in Canada, absent fraud (i.e. the non resident spouse entered into the marriage for the sole purpose of obtaining Canadian resident status), a foreign spouse becomes a permanent resident on landing in Canada.

If I understand correctly, immigration is a federal matter, not state, therefore mute in state court.  The state could however determine that if requirements for residency in that state were met, that a person is indeed resident for purposes of establishing jurisdiction.

[Turboguy]

Are you saying that in USA, a woman can marry a US man, move to the country, divorce him the next week and still get permanent resisdence? Really?

I would say that could and has happened.  All they have to do is claim abuse.  If the marriage only lasted a day she would still be able to become a perminant resident.  I do know first hand of one case where the marriage just lasted weeks and the woman got her 10 year green card.
 
My wife is in Russia right now.  She tells me that food and clothes are more expensive there than here so while we are trying to decide how people get buy on low incomes we might want to add that factor in.
 
As far as the scenario about doctors surviving on $ 300.00 a month I believe I have heard that it is common to tip the doctors over there, at least if you don't want to wait until you are old and grey for your free services.  I have a feeling if I gave my Dr a tip he would take days to stop laughing.

[Simoni]

As far as the scenario about doctors surviving on $ 300.00 a month I believe I have heard that it is common to tip the doctors over there, at least if you don't want to wait until you are old and grey for your free services.  I have a feeling if I gave my Dr a tip he would take days to stop laughing.

Our daughter was sick over here last week.  104 temperature.   My wife first took her to the elite pay for treatment service. Not so good.   Still sick next day so took her to free service.  Free service was better!  We gave the doctor a twenty dollar tip and she was very happy. 

[Gator]

 
My wife is in Russia right now.  She tells me that food and clothes are more expensive there than here so while we are trying to decide how people get buy on low incomes we might want to add that factor in.
 

True with the exception of bread and dairy products.   They cost much less than here in the USA, and frankly are better tasting in Russia.  I assume the Russian government may subsidize these two staples.

[Gator]

Our daughter was sick over here last week.  104 temperature.   My wife first took her to the elite pay for treatment service. Not so good.   Still sick next day so took her to free service.  Free service was better!  We gave the doctor a twenty dollar tip and she was very happy.

104F is serious.  Glad to know the little princess has recovered. 
 
Young kids can develop a high fever to combat their infection, and if the cause is bacterial they can recover naturally and quickly in a day or two, sometimes aided by an advil.  It is possible that you visited the free service just before the natural conclusion of her illness, a recovery that may or may not have been speeded by how the first physician treated her.  Not saying this is her case - I have 0.1% of the facts and I am not a pediatrician.   

Of course it could be something really serious, and because a parent can never know a visit to the doctor is advisable, imperative if the fever persists.  Earaches were the most problematic with my sons.

[Muzh]

OK Muzh, we’re on the same page now!   
Gator gets it and so do you now.
Yup. I clearly don’t read enough of GQ’s posts as I should, or I would have known
not to take him too seriously.

 
I’ll know better the next time. 


BTW, did you start a post under the same name as this one yesterday by accident?

Me?? What post?

[Jumper]

Women who come here outside of the European Union needs to stay here legally for 3 years before they get permanent residence, yes. The reason they are permitted to come and live here in the first place is because they married a Norwegian citizen. Is it otherwise in USA? Are you saying that in USA, a woman can marry a US man, move to the country, divorce him the next week and still get permanent resisdence? Really?

 

if they married outside the country and she came to the USA  on a petition for alien relative.

Then she comes here with a 2 year conditional residency based on marriage, very similar to Norway.
(not like Canada , which requires the couple be married for sometime before immigration?)


but  there are provisions in the conditional residency that do allow her to remove the conditional and get permanent status well  before the conditional 2 years of  marriage
is complete .

yes,really.

in fact if she (or he) used the person as a mule for immigration , was smart understands and uses the system ,she would have her permanent residency and citizenship much faster than a person who stated married and jumped thru all the removal of conditions in the traditional and intended way.
i have been through it, (removal thru the traditional way of actually being and staying married)I do know the regulations.

It is absolutely not true she has to claim abuse or file a DV charge,
this keeps being stated on message boards as fact, and is not correct.

it is true that if she claims abuse , files a domestic abuse charge,
its almost a fast track to getting her conditions removed.

Here is a link to how to remove conditional residency and apply for permanent status.
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=745218a1f8b73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=4ca43a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD
Remove Conditions on Permanent Residence Based on MarriageYour permanent residence status is conditional if it is based on a marriage that was less than 2 years old on the day you were given permanent residence. You are given conditional resident status on the day you are lawfully admitted to the United States on an immigrant visa or adjustment of your status to permanent residence. Your status is conditional, because you must prove that you did not get married to evade the immigration laws of the United States. To remove these conditions you must file Form I-751, Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence.

Eligibility Criteria

Generally, you may apply to remove your conditions on permanent residence if:

• You are still married to the same U.S. citizen or permanent resident after 2 years (your children may be included in your application if they received their conditional resident status at the same time that you did or within 90 days)
• You are a child and cannot be included in the application of your parents for a valid reason
• You are a widow or widower of a marriage that was entered into in good faith
• You entered into a marriage in good faith, but the marriage was ended through divorce or annulment
• You entered into a marriage in good faith, but either you or your child were battered or subjected to extreme hardship by your U.S. citizen or permanent resident spouse
• The termination of your conditional resident status would cause extreme hardship to you

It can be applied for in the first few weeks...
and yes entered in good faith is the question, but seldom questioned nearly as much as you might expect.

She could simply say it was an honest sincere marriage, but realized once
living together that it would not  work out.
maybe the husband agrees?
its does happen, and people do get the conditions removed.
no DV charge needed at all
(now  some use this part of the system to better establish their case,and by most reports she really only needs to say she is afraid)



 In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the regulations, or them having a means to remove the conditions early.

Obviously they shouldn't be abused, but any regulation will have it's loopholes.

Of all the cross cultural marriages i know of in my area, and there are quite a few of  them, none  involve abuse of this part of the regulations.

Certainly it can happen, ,members here have had it happen.



         

[Muzh]

Our daughter was sick over here last week.  104 temperature.   My wife first took her to the elite pay for treatment service. Not so good.   Still sick next day so took her to free service.  Free service was better!  We gave the doctor a twenty dollar tip and she was very happy.

Whenever you travel with your little one, always bring with you a bottle of children's ibuprofen. It worked wonders with my children. It would reduce the fever for exactly 8 hours! Like clockwork. If she is under two, check with your ped. If there are no issues, usually it is half the dose for two and under. My wife is a pediatrician.

[The Natural]

but  there are provisions in the conditional residency that do allow her to remove the conditional and get permanent status well  before the conditional 2 years of  marriage
is complete .

yes,really.

Alright, I stand corrected. Now I understand better all the "mule" talk 

[CanadaMan]

Me?? What post?

 This one:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13577.0

[Vincenzo]

 So some secretaries in the west  make minimum wage? and drive old cars?
they make roughly $1200 a month.
Amazingly almost very few of them would trade that for making  $300 or less  a month,, and riding  a bus or marshrutka travel.
and you know, oddly enough, there isn't any *marrying  me just for a green card worries*
 for men in ukraine wanting to marry  a western woman.
 There are very fundamental reasons, isn't that the simplest part of all that?


I was just in Vienna, and also Ukraine, if you cant tell the general differences.
I think  you have walked around  with blinders on.
By the way i was with a RW, and her friend who had relocated to Austria.
Real first hand experience living the FSU life, and a western european one.
  Care to know she felt about almost every aspect comparing cultures/places?

Yeah, it's nice to be a secretary with $1,200 a month in Vienna. Income tax in Austria is up to 50%.
I checked apartment prices: http://derstandard.at/anzeiger/immoweb/Suchergebnis.aspx?FromAgentStatic=27801
Tiny apartments cost €500.

I don't know about your secretaries. Russia has one of the highest incoming immigration. Apparently, people enjoy to ride marshrutkas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

Russia experiences a constant flow of immigration. On average, close to 300,000 legal immigrants enter the country every year

Why would a successful Ukrainian man marry a foreign woman when he is surrounded by the most beautiful and smart women?

Most Russians whom I contacted live in extended families. Their apartments are almost free because they were given by the government, property taxes are extremely low.
If we talk about provincial towns, I saw streets of nice log houses. I assume wood is abundant and super cheap, land if almost free.
Not like in Vienna. However, I heard if you don't work in Austria, the government will give you unemployment and a free apartment. I like socialism.

[Misha]

I know a few secretaries, tellers, and receptionists in the West. They earn minimum wages, drive very old cars, bring lunches from home and expect to be fired for any remark.

I've written to a plastic surgeon in Russia. She had everything: an apartment, a car, traveled abroad a few times a year.

Here is the difference:
A Russian doctor earns $300 a month, but her services are free.

Do you really think that a plastic surgeon in Russia earns $300 a month?!? If you do, you are serious misguided.  Googling, I found this price list for a clinic in Moscow: http://www.aesthetics.ru/operations/prices.shtml.


As you can see, breast enlargements start at 260,000 roubles, face lifts at 200,000 roubles, etc... Do you really think that the plastic surgeon that is conducting an operation worth close to $9,000 dollars will only be paid $15 or $20? [She will be performing, presumably, one operation or more per day.]


As for your statements about secretaries earning minimum wage, this is also incorrect. A good secretary, administrative assistant as they are usually called in Canada, will be earning a very good wage and will be earning much more than minimum wage, and will drive a new car if she wants one.


Your generalizations are oddly enough wrong for both Russia and at least my corner of the "West."

An American doctor charges $300 for 10 minutes of her time and then goes to play golf. An auto worker who pays to the doctor, asks $50 per hour to build cars. However, a Chinese worker can build a similar car for $100 a month. What's the result? The American worker is unemployed.

Sorry, but the doctor will be doing a lot more work and won't be playing as much golf as you imagine. As for the cost of the car, that includes not only the labour of the workers assembling the cars, but the labor of the engineers and other specialists who designed the car and its components. China still has a way to go before it can compete with the Korean carmakers, let alone the American and European producers.

I've been to the Ukraine. $300 there buy a lot.

You will certainly survive, but it certainly won't buy a lot....

[Vincenzo]

A good secretary, administrative assistant as they are usually called in Canada, will be earning a very good wage and will be earning much more than minimum wage, and will drive a new car if she wants one.

I checked the facts for Toronto.
Office jobs: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/ofc/
Offers for administrative assistants: $25,000 a year.
I don't know about taxes.

Apartments: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/apa/
Cheap ones: $800-1,000 = $12,000

It's nice if she can save $500 a month to pay for a new car, luxury restaurants and new breasts. I doubt it.

[Misha]

I checked the facts for Toronto.
Office jobs: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/ofc/
Offers for administrative assistants: $25,000 a year.
I don't know about taxes.

Apartments: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/apa/
Cheap ones: $800-1,000 = $12,000

It's nice if she can save $500 a month to pay for a new car, luxury restaurants and new breasts. I doubt it.

Why would you go to Craig's List to look for a job? Here is one of the many jobs advertised on Workopolis for an administrative assistant in Burlington, Ontario: http://www.workopolis.com/EN/job/13197190?uc=E4


As you can see, they are offering $20 per hour, 35 hours per week. This is more than double the minimum wage and works out to $36,400 per annum or a bit more than $3,000 per month. More than enough to pay for an apartment, a new car and if she saves up for it plastic surgery    Can't you just admit that you are wrong?

[Boethius]

I checked the facts for Toronto.
Office jobs: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/ofc/
Offers for administrative assistants: $25,000 a year.
I don't know about taxes.

Apartments: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/apa/
Cheap ones: $800-1,000 = $12,000

It's nice if she can save $500 a month to pay for a new car, luxury restaurants and new breasts. I doubt it.

Are you kidding?  I live in a city smaller than Toronto, in Western Canada, and, hire admin assistants.  Juniors with no experience are making $35,000 plus benefits.    Custodians here make $15-$20 an hour.

[Muzh]

This one:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13577.0

Actually, that was a response to Roy Hobbs when he inquired about going postal. It seems the thread was split into "Aphorisms."

[Gylden]

Here is the whole quote from Wiki:
 
300,000 legal immigrants enter the country every year; about half are ethnic Russians from the other republics of the former Soviet Union. In addition, There are an estimated 4 million illegal immigrants from the ex-Soviet states in Russia.^[31] There is a significant inflow of ethnic Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, and Ukrainians into big Russian cities, something that is viewed unfavorably by some citizens.

[Jumper]

Vincenzo-
I never spoke about secretaries in Vienna?
I spoke about minimum wage in the WEST , that you refered to, in that case you infered the US.I gave examples of the lowest salary a US secertary could have,the  minimum wage you had stated?
 
 
I then spoke about visting vienna with a RW and her friend who has relocated there from Ukraine. I relayed what they think, how they feel after being both places , some of their experiences in both Ukraine and Austria,  that do not coincide with googled  perceptions,at all.
 
You missed the entire point about a ukranian man not having to worry that any woman marries him for immigration..
    
 
 I do not worry over this either,at all.
 
but it is a possiblity in a thread debating why FSU women relocate?
Some do relocate because of the harsher conditions in their home country. I do not consider that a bad motivation, just one of several reasons they might entertain the idea of looking abroad.
 Certainly  the people that might take that path, are probably not moskovitchkas whose occupatiion is plastic surgeon.
 
 
Russia is one of the few industrialized nations with a declining population over the last decade, so if it recently turned thats a good thing.
 
I like the FSU, the culture and the people.There are advantagers and disadvantages to living most anywhere.
I lived in Czech rep for a couple of years, I recently returned there for a visit and really enjoyed my time.
Yet i wouldn't ignore the daily hardships of living in Brno on an avarage salary there.
 
For you to portray some bed of roses in the FSU  for the majority,or they have  an inherireted flat, but also an average salary in a provincial city, is what's amusing.
Yes they have fun, have family, enjoy life, but they wont ignore the difficulties like you seem to be  doing.
 
You have all the wiki facts without living there.
 
 
Yes certainly many people there are quite well off.
 
What exactly is your  point?