Hello and a few questions

[GQBlues]

So GQ, according to your logic (????), when someone suggests that a new member join Elena's Models then he should pay for that persons membership to prove he was giving good advice.

TG, seriously. I need not repeat myself as you well know what the matter is. If you can't back your statement up, please give it a rest. 
 

Did my son get married or laid?  Married no, laid, yes, twice and he said the one was the best sex of his life.

 
So, on that merit, is this focal to your recommendation to Van? 
 
Yes or NO. It's very simple.
 

I think Jumper's post was quite good and I think anyone reading this garbage would be shaking their head at what you are saying.  I agree, you need to step back for a while and get control of yourself.

Of course you'd feel that way, TG. You need to hide behind any possible rock/skirt you can find right now. Quite understandable.
 
Anytime you feel like backing up your recommendation, please let us know, OK? 
 

Yes, I spent about as much on tours as Van makes in a year.  The EC tours were a waste and I never recommend anyone to go on a big agency tour.  Jack's were very different and I do think it would be the best choice he could make.

Because your son got laid twice on Jack's tour? Isn't it suppose to be about meeting potential wives?

[Turboguy]

 
So, on that merit, is this focal to your recommendation to Van? 
 
Yes or NO. It's very simple.
 

No of course not. 

[GQBlues]

No of course not.

Great! I'm happy to hear that, TG   
 
Neither of you (son) found a wife either so what exactly is your reason for recommending Van to spend maybe 8 grand (20% of his annual gross salary) and attend Jack's tour?

[Faux Pas]

Turbo, GQ


I've followed this volley as it's developed and quite frankly, I see both your points. Turbo apparently felt quite empowered and confident after Jacks tours at least enough to recommend them.


GQ makes a very valid point, van1970 has stated his desire to find a wife with whom to have children. Neither of which Turbo found on the various tours.


In an effort to not split this thread I am going to ask you both to direct your helpful responses to the OP and not each other. You've both made your points, a number of times. By all means open yourselves another thread and hammer this out but, let's leave this one as a instrument of learning for the OP?

[Turboguy]

Thanks FP,
 
I have to go do some work for a change so I won't be on the comupter for the next 3-4 hours.  The only thing I might want to add would be relative to Van's thread but that may change while I am gone and if it is only to rebuff GQ then I will start another thread.  Personally it seems to me that the conversations with GQ are and can go nowhere productive.

[GQBlues]

No problemo FP.
 
Just for info however, the last two posts (Jack and mine) had been cut and re-posted on Anything Goes (member's only).
 
 

[Faux Pas]

Thanks guys. You've both given him some really good stuff in the process but, it's denigrated to the point of repetitious and not a useful form.   

[BC]

Thanks guys. You've both given him some really good stuff in the process but, it's denigrated to the point of repetitious and not a useful form. 

I suggest a good pause for this thread in order to let Van return, digest what has been said already and respond.  He posted 2 posts a week ago and checked in two days ago without responding.

Is that worth a pi$$ing contest?

[Muzh]

Van:


After reading all the "help" offered to you, may I recommend that you seriously consider talking to Jack off list and see if there is something to your liking? The point is, after all the semantics, you don't know squat about this journey and unless you are willing to throw away thousands of $$$, find someone that has a track record of success. Agencies should be off line. Also, remember that Jack and Ed are running a business, but at least they give you personalized service and it is a lot easier to engage your BS detector.


BTW, I never used Jack, although I wanted to meet him here in Ukraine, nor Ed, nor I used any agencies. Thank god for that, the agencies that is.


Bottom line, this should be a FUN endeavor so try to make it fun.


To all the guys who offered your illustrious assessment of this guy, why don't you look yourselves in the mirror?


My goodness. Some people an be real idiots when it comes to human relations.


If anything, read Gator's advice. The best so far.

[GQBlues]

...My goodness. Some people an be real idiots when it comes to human relations....

So said the kettle...and FP was hoping for a more gentle continuance?

[Muzh]

So said the kettle...and FP was hoping for a more gentle continuance?

Well Mr. Black, how about some gentleness?

[GQBlues]

Well Mr. Black, how about some gentleness?

Not until you're done with the mirror.

[LAman]

Van:

 To all the guys who offered your illustrious assessment of this guy, why don't you look yourselves in the mirror?


My goodness. Some people an be real idiots when it comes to human relations.


If anything, read Gator's advice. The best so far.

Don't know who exactly you were speaking of Muzh....but I learned more over the years from those who were the most 'critical' of my thoughts and aspirations. Although, it was ME who ended up deciding what I would do or not, which was best. The pats on the back were nice but got me no where other than short term feeling good. I gave my best thoughts( on OP's posts) based on some guys who I have met or through my friend who has been on many tours.
I do see how Jack's can be helpful in OP meeting girls....but what happens when guy is alone( with girls)....you true character and personality comes out..it could be great for OP but could also be crash and burn. It is for OP to decide if he wants to play it out!!!

[Mike78]

Van,
 
It's very simple really. You already earned my admiration when you said....
　
Most of what folks are missing here are 2 HUGE accomplishments you made borne by innocence inspiration. In 2 years time, you lost 80 lbs., and with an earning of 40K, you bought yourself a home. Not too many people can say they can do what you just did, man. That's something you can hold close to your attitude/confidence treasure chest.
 
The fact you also didn't hurl any type of blame to the mythical feminists and the O'Donnell sisters to your social woes, gets huge brownie points from me. When you knew you wanted to take on a path in your life, you took charge and started with yourself, and goddangit, I like that!
 
Will it work for you? A bit of tweaking with your attitude, personality and perspective, you betcha!
 
So to start, in terms of physical appearance, you're already ahead of the herd. Listen, more than half the guys in this pursuit look worst than you, and that's including me, man. Most of them are old and fat and I'm serious about that. The funny thing is, they all look for women who are younger (much younger) and slim as apparently they don't like old and fat women, LOL. Ironic, isn’t it? Something about being 'old' and 'fat' they find disgusting...
 
But did they get the chicks when they hit FSU? Of course they did...that's why they went there in the first place.
 
Anyway, my advice...get rid of the tie, unbutton the shirt and get a nice little make-over. Not much. I'll estimate no more than $400 bucks. A nice short ruffled razor haircut from a good stylist, no part, just the shower-n-go look will do wonders for your facial features. Lose the Clark Kent look and get contact lenses.
 
Don't underestimate the power of positive self. Boosting your attitude and confidence create opportunities too many men take for granted. It gives you a brighter perspective in all things. Don't fall into the abyss that your sorry fate is everyone else’s fault but your own, which you seem not to possess. Spend that $400 and give what I'm telling you a bit of a chance and start looking at women in a different light. Many will be so happy you are still around and available.
 
You already have what it takes, Van, you’ve already proven that. You now just need to make this (w/women) happen like you have with the other segments of your life. Release yourself...
 
Always remember this, fishing in a barrel doesn't make you a better fisherman.

Good advice GQ. I'd advice Van to save his money (at least for now, and the tours are very expensive) and concentrate on bettering himself. As for appearance it might be good idea to hit the weights as well a little bit; not only you wil look better a little buff, but heightened testosterone will add to your confidence and make you be naturally more masculine.

Very little dating experience at his age could be serious issue. Try to date here in America, make a game out of it. Don't look for a wife per se, just some fun, the point is not to take it too seriously but to get some experience. You need to sift through a lot of dirt to find the gold, and this statement would be valid in USA or FSU. There are a lot of dating resources out there (many are bad, but some are good), check some out.

In my experience, the guys that are good with women

- know how to appear attractive - good style, in shape, posture, body language
- are not needy or too outcome dependent
- simply just don't give a #^&$*
- don't put women on a pedestal
- play the numbers heavily and are not shaken by rejection one bit
- are generally high-testosterone risk takers
- are a little selfish and cocky
- some are quite misogynist and def not politically correct


Now I'm not saying to transform yourself into some misogynist womanizer, but adopting even some of these qualities to a certain degree could help your romantic life tremendously. Especially if you are the typical "nice guy" (it seems to me that you indeed are).

Only after gaining some experience I would venture out to look outside of USA.



Hope this helps somewhat...

[Muzh]

Don't know who exactly you were speaking of Muzh....but I learned more over the years from those who were the most 'critical' of my thoughts and aspirations. Although, it was ME who ended up deciding what I would do or not, which was best. The pats on the back were nice but got me no where other than short term feeling good. I gave my best thoughts( on OP's posts) based on some guys who I have met or through my friend who has been on many tours.
I do see how Jack's can be helpful in OP meeting girls....but what happens when guy is alone( with girls)....you true character and personality comes out..it could be great for OP but could also be crash and burn. It is for OP to decide if he wants to play it out!!!

I have no argument with what you just said. None.


Now, explain to me how this is being critical of Van in terms of him advancing his quest?

Van....to be honest and frank...it was depressing reading your OP.
I felt compassion for you. I do firmly believe, if you cannot date women you are looking for at home..you'll not have better luck in FSU....you will have anguish, heartbreak and empty pockets.
 
I do applaud you for your personal 'gains' in your situation. I don't know how one 'changes' their personality. It could be inside ready to come out but mostly people are what they are. And you need to find someone who accepts who you are. It is MUCH easier done at home!!
I do also believe there is someone for each of us but you may never find her...so best to be happy with yourself....the self confidence mentioned earlier.
 
By the way..the match date...there is a reason she didn't return calls...sorry dude

You call that being critical? I think a kick in the cojones would be a lot more comfortable. Seriously, do you talk to people this way?

[BC]

You call that being critical? I think a kick in the cojones would be a lot more comfortable. Seriously, do you talk to people this way?

Muzh,

Call it frank, bold, audacious, gritty or any number of synomyms, aside from the depressing remark quite ok IMHO.  The message is clear.

Not to say that it applies to Van, but there are men that are just not equipped for all this.  I firmly believe in jb's words that go something like this:  "This venture is not for everyone."

Has nothing to do with being a MAN.. Heck, I am certainly not the type that should be skydiving or climbing K2 today so don't try to talk me into it.  Sure I'd love to do it but have learned that I have limitations, nor do I mind others telling me so.

[Muzh]

Muzh,

Call it frank, bold, audacious, gritty or any number of synomyms, aside from the depressing remark quite ok IMHO.  The message is clear.

Not to say that it applies to Van, but there are men that are just not equipped for all this.  I firmly believe in jb's words that go something like this:  "This venture is not for everyone."

Has nothing to do with being a MAN.. Heck, I am certainly not the type that should be skydiving or climbing K2 today so don't try to talk me into it.  Sure I'd love to do it but have learned that I have limitations, nor do I mind others telling me so.

Still, my point is; do you normally talk to people like this? You definitely didn't do it to me.

[BC]

In my experience, the guys that are good with women

Mike,

Good list.

Can maybe add

- realize that women enjoy sex as much as men.
- disregard rejection and move on quickly.

Walking up to 10 women, quick intro and a 'You know I really think we could have a good time...' might get you slapped once, laughed at thrice, a 'duhh' twice, an 'I'm married' once and two in the sack.   The next night at the same gathering place even the woman that slapped you will be intrigued.

[BC]

Still, my point is; do you normally talk to people like this? You definitely didn't do it to me.

No, I don't usually talk like that but there have been occasions..

I tend to use a little lube.. easier for both  LOL

[Muzh]

No, I don't usually talk like that but there have been occasions..

I tend to use a little lube.. easier for both  LOL

Thx, that was my point.

[I/O]

van1970 has stated his desire to find a wife with whom to have children.

I didn't notice "wife" in any of his comments. The only "desire" listed is for children.

[Turboguy]

I firmly believe in jb's words that go something like this:  "This venture is not for everyone."

So, should we set a new rule, maybe an 11th commandment, "Only Alpha males are allowed to go to the FSU to find a wife"
 
So, how do we suggest someone go from Z to A,  (Z being someone who has little experience with women, A being an Alpha male.)
 
The suggestions seem to be that he should lock himself in his bedroom pumping iron until he looks like a young Arnold then go out into the world and all the young chicks will swoon to his adonis physique, and to limit is dating to the American scene which most of the members here have stayed away from because it totally sucks and to not even think about going to the FSU where there are a lot of women looking for a good man and are willing to accept a less then perfect man (otherwise most of us would be relagated to playing with ourselves)
 
Perhaps there are some men who are "not cut out for this".  We sometimes seem to have a penchant for setting up death panels to decide exactly who those are. 

[BC]

So, should we set a new rule, maybe an 11th commandment, "Only Alpha males are allowed to go to the FSU to find a wife"
 
So, how do we suggest someone go from Z to A,  (Z being someone who has little experience with women, A being an Alpha male.)
 
The suggestions seem to be that he should lock himself in his bedroom pumping iron until he looks like a young Arnold then go out into the world and all the young chicks will swoon to his adonis physique, and to limit is dating to the American scene which most of the members here have stayed away from because it totally sucks and to not even think about going to the FSU where there are a lot of women looking for a good man and are willing to accept a less then perfect man (otherwise most of us would be relagated to playing with ourselves)
 
Perhaps there are some men who are "not cut out for this".  We sometimes seem to have a penchant for setting up death panels to decide exactly who those are.

TG,

No one on earth can prevent Van or anyone else for that matter from getting on a plane.

Has nothing to do with alpha or zeta.  In my book, anyone applying for their first passport and/or has not traveled and experienced foreign countries should look first, not once but thrice before jumping.  In fact I think actively looking for a wife is a path that should not even be followed.. but hey that's just me maybe. Take it or leave it - I'm sure Van will decide for himself.

Sorry but I just don't get much of your spiel.. we can sit around all day and talk about red flag this or red flag that regarding any woman on the planet without your objection.. but once anyone raises a red flag aimed at a man you start chirping.  Why is that?

The dating scene? It's there and obviously works.  Tens of thousands if not more 40+ men get married each and every year.. a few hundred get on a plane. Show me that does not work.

Was PG ready for all this?  Talk about red flags all over the place with rah rah band egging him on. Try putting yourself in Van's shoes to follow your own path with the resources he has at hand.. do you think you would be able to follow the exact same path?  As I see it you were able to persevere because you had the monetary resources and time to pull it off, even if it took you 20 years instead of 10 and a quarter million bucks.

Van is on the road to success as it is so why throw kinks in the works seeking some rather expensive shortcuts seeking instant gratification.  He can probably do quite well at the local library, grocer, book store, laundromat, gas station, church, sport events, dance club, whatever.  My gut feeling is he needs only exposure and not the hand holding you suggest.

In fact, look at the 7th commandment "Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful."  In a way you are asking Van to ignore it by getting on a plane to be somebody he is not.

[Misha]

So, should we set a new rule, maybe an 11th commandment, "Only Alpha males are allowed to go to the FSU to find a wife"

 


I have said this before, I am a shy man. I was neither a Don Juan nor a player, yet I managed to marry a wonderful woman    If anything, I found that dating in Russia was much, much easier for a shy guy like me.


It all boils down to this: can you hold a conversation when you meet a woman. The trick is not talking, but getting the woman to talk, which in my experience is not that hard in the FSU. Once you have done that, then there is not need for this Alpha-male bravado and those childish PUA games. If you have generated some interest, then the main advantage of the dating in the FSU kicks in: she will be the one doing her best to let you know in no uncertain terms that she wants a second date, something that in my very limited dating experience women in Canada do not do....


Also, some women are clever enough to understand that shy men have their advantages 

[Muzh]

TG,

No one on earth can prevent Van or anyone else for that matter from getting on a plane.

With all due respect but it seems the caveat is: No Alpha male; do not ask here.

In fact, look at the 7th commandment "Always be yourself. Show the ladies the real you. Be truthful."  In a way you are asking Van to ignore it by getting on a plane to be somebody he is not.

One more time; what you just said is that if he is not a buffed alpha male, he is not being himself. Or is it that you are protecting the Russian virginal damsels from non-alpha male?


IOW, how can he be himself according to you?


Just curious.