Cursing women

[Boethius]

Hmm, not always obvious in online communications.  Plus, much depends on one's own life experiences.

[OlgaH]

... she spoke like a scaricatore di porto (longshoreman/stevedore)

In Russia we usually say "she/he curses like a shoemaker ( or a cobbler).

[Jumper]

Boe-
 ..color me confused
 
  I think  my posts where completely clear that i did not find Kunas' wife a dishonest person,or what  society  would term a *liar*.
 
In fact my thoughts were exactly as you mentioned-
 It was her means of avoiding a topic she din't want to discuss.period.
 
And frankly its an aversion to the topic that  I find to be incredibly common in RW, despite the debate about it here.
 
but yes, it was not a complete statement of truth now was it? which was Ades point i believe?
 
 but he took it further into to an indication of a general cultural mentality he had recently become more aware of, a tip of the iceburg?(which overall i've seen similar as well, so not sure where that line is)
 
 In fact it is why i was questioning Ade and looking for clarification ,which he provided.
 
 Ade was the only one I see making her statement out as
a concrete *lie or truth* black or white thing ,
where  anything not fully the turth was a lie.
Taking it to absolute literal meaning.
 
That is the right of every individual to do, guided by
their own ethics compass.
 Ade made his clear, that any diversion from absolute truth was a lie,and the person then a liar.
 
My responce was operating under the context that he had set,and I even asked specifically if he actually wanted to go there..
for obvious reasons that spring up now.
 
 
but i certainly never indicated in any way that i felt Kuna's wife was a liar, if anything, i was defending her position and statement from the exact same place you just did.
 
Ade taking the statement  very literally, to a point most would not,  to not expect a *reaction* is a bit funny..?
 
 
Let's not beat around the bush,
you mention your husbands absolute honesty , and i do not doubt it.
So would he:
1.outright  tell Kuna his wife is a liar,in view of her statement?
2.remain silent,but feel that  she is, according to a very strict unyielding and literal moral compass.
3.or think along the lines ,that you stated your own beliefs to be.
????
it's merely interesting ..
 
and obviously i have way too much time on my hands..
 
 
 
absolutely i think Kuna's wife is an honest person.
 I also firmly believe Ade is a person of ethics who avoids lies and deception.
Maybe to a point of being a bit socially abrasive as in this particular case.(if he operates in real life as he posted here,but my bet is he simply doesnt blurt that out when such *lies* occur)
 
Nothing wrong with being true to your own ethical compass..
Yet his need to bluntly point out  her statement as a lie ,to expand on his recent deeper glimpsies into FSU culture, seemed odd.
 
 

[Anotherkiwi]

...Not condoning anything what Hitler stood for, but yes, Norwegian women were very sought after by German soldiers. After the war ended however, and the soldiers went home, these women met an awful fate. The women who had been with German soldiers were called "German sluts", got their hair shaved and had to live in shame for decades. They had been with the enemy, so to speak. Sad story really and the children of such relationships were also treated badly, being called "German bastards" or something like that.

Best example that I know of is Anni-Frid Lyngstad (Frida from ABBA).  Here's the start of her entry in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad):
 
Anni-Frid Synni "Frida" Lyngstad was born in Bjørkåsen, a small village in Ballangen near Narvik, in northern Norway, as the result of an affair between 19-year-old Synni Lyngstad (19 June 1926 - 28 September 1947), and a married German soldier, Alfred Haase (1919 - January 2009), just before the end of the Second World War and the German occupation of Norway. Lyngstad's father returned to Germany when his troops were evacuated.  In early 1947, Lyngstad, her mother, and her maternal grandmother Arntine Lyngstad ("Agny") left her birthplace, fearing reprisals against those who had dealings with the Germans during the occupation. This could entail not just insults, but also forced separation of infants from their parents and relatives.

[Boethius]

I have no comment on Kuna's wife, as I don't know her, and I assume she doesn't post here.  All that matters is she makes him happy and vice versa.

I don't think Ade's comment was meant to offend, and I "get" what he was saying.  I didn't find it odd.

[Rubicon]

Best example that I know of is Anni-Frid Lyngstad (Frida from ABBA).  Here's the start of her entry in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad):
 
Anni-Frid Synni "Frida" Lyngstad was born in Bjørkåsen, a small village in Ballangen near Narvik, in northern Norway, as the result of an affair between 19-year-old Synni Lyngstad (19 June 1926 - 28 September 1947), and a married German soldier, Alfred Haase (1919 - January 2009), just before the end of the Second World War and the German occupation of Norway. Lyngstad's father returned to Germany when his troops were evacuated.  In early 1947, Lyngstad, her mother, and her maternal grandmother Arntine Lyngstad ("Agny") left her birthplace, fearing reprisals against those who had dealings with the Germans during the occupation. This could entail not just insults, but also forced separation of infants from their parents and relatives.

Great post Kiwi.  I always liked ABBA as a teenager, but I had no idea that Frida was the product of one of these affairs.  I wonder why her mother Synni died at such a young age?? 

[Ade]

Nice rant Kuna. I should point out however, that although the personal insults may have given you some small sense of gratification, they had no effect on me whatsoever. You understand this, right? But in case you don't and for the benefit of others that don't know me, let me explain; only those people that I respect have any hope of ever hurting me or mine with insults.

For the google challenged let me insert the generally accepted definitions of lie and lying.

–noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
 . –verb (used without object)
5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
6. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

Now, if your wife deliberately attempted to mislead you with a false statement, for whatever reason, it is a fact, not an opinion, a fact by the commonly understood definition of the word, that she lied.

If her command of the English language was so poor that her statement was the only way she could express that she didn't want to talk about swearing or that she didn't accept swearing in her house, then of course she wasn't lying as she wasn't trying to deceive you with a deliberate untruth.

I probably should have punctuated my original statement with a question mark and it would have saved you the time and effort you wasted on writing all those insults. Although, going by your past history, I'd say personal insults are something you like to throw out there when you think you can get away with it. Classy.

[Ade]

but yes, it was not a complete statement of truth now was it? which was Ades point i believe?
 
 but he took it further into to an indication of a general cultural mentality he had recently become more aware of, a tip of the iceburg?(which overall i've seen similar as well, so not sure where that line is)

I was fully aware of the existence of those particular cultural leanings but it's only relatively recently that I discovered how deep they run and how extremely common they are among the people there. There seems to be exceptional people and families that buck the trend and have a stronger sense of what is right in spite of the environment they grew up in, but, going by what I have witnessed and from what my wife has said, they are in the minority.

In fact it is why i was questioning Ade and looking for clarification ,which he provided.
 
 Ade was the only one I see making her statement out as
a concrete *lie or truth* black or white thing ,
where  anything not fully the turth was a lie.
Taking it to absolute literal meaning.
 

The trouble with lying is that it is easy, it's the lazy man's way out and it can become such a habit that it becomes pervasive. You can fudge the the grey area between truth and lies as much as you want, but a deliberate attempt to deceive is, IMO, wrong. Sure, telling your girlfriend you can't make a date because you have to work late when you are really going for a beer with your mates is not tantamount to breaking marriage vows. But it is still wrong, and it's incredibly disrespectful to the person you are telling the lie to.

My wife and I don't lie to each other. She has told me several times that she likes and appreciates my honesty and directness. Believe it or not, sometimes she says I'm not direct enough. The reason I had this "insight" into how pervasive these "flexible morals" are among FSUW is because she has been very candid with me about acquaintances she knows. If the guys here end up with a women like my wife, they can count themselves very lucky men.

[Rubicon]

Nice rant Kuna. I should point out however, that although the personal insults may have given you some small sense of gratification, they had no effect on me whatsoever. You understand this, right? But in case you don't and for the benefit of others that don't know me, let me explain; only those people that I respect have any hope of ever hurting me or mine with insults.

For the google challenged let me insert the generally accepted definitions of lie and lying.

Now, if your wife deliberately attempted to mislead you with a false statement, for whatever reason, it is a fact, not an opinion, a fact by the commonly understood definition of the word, that she lied.

If her command of the English language was so poor that her statement was the only way she could express that she didn't want to talk about swearing or that she didn't accept swearing in her house, then of course she wasn't lying as she wasn't trying to deceive you with a deliberate untruth.

I probably should have punctuated my original statement with a question mark and it would have saved you the time and effort you wasted on writing all those insults. Although, going by your past history, I'd say personal insults are something you like to throw out there when you think you can get away with it. Classy.

Wow Dude, you have some issues.  Let it go.....PLEASE!!

[Ade]

Wow Dude, you have some issues.  Let it go.....PLEASE!!

Interesting that you think I have "issues". Which ones precisely?

[Anotherkiwi]

Great post Kiwi.  I always liked ABBA as a teenager, but I had no idea that Frida was the product of one of these affairs.  I wonder why her mother Synni died at such a young age??

Synni died of kidney failure.
 
ABBA are certainly my favourite group of the 1970s and early 80s, just ahead of Fleetwood Mac.  It's one of my real regrets that, as a teenager, I didn't have enough money to fly to Sydney to see them in concert on their amazing 1976 tour of Australia.  Unfortunately they never made it to New Zealand.

[Gator]

My wife and I don't lie to each other. She has told me several times that she likes and appreciates my honesty and directness. Believe it or not, sometimes she says I'm not direct enough. The reason I had this "insight" into how pervasive these "flexible morals" are among FSUW is because she has been very candid with me about acquaintances she knows.
 

 
Based on my experiences I would guess that the forthrightness of your wife may be due less to your wife's moral compass and more because of the depth of respect and emotional connection between the two of you.  I congratulate you for finding it and nurturing it.
 

 
I was fully aware of the existence of those particular cultural leanings but it's only relatively recently that I discovered how deep they run and how extremely common they are among the people there.

Okay, but why use the statement by Kuna's wife as an example for introducing your revelation?   Is her statement in the same category?
 
You have not disclosed the nature of the deceits by your wife's  RW acquaintances.  Are they in the category of a RW secretly spending more money for organic milk when her husband told her to buy the less costly common milk?       I presume the deceptions fall in the category of RW being unhappy with their spouse:  a RW is plotting to leave him or perhaps having an extramarital affair.  That news would be alarming but should not be unexpected given some RW 1) were not in true love when they married because of the fast track process and 2) did not marry in good faith (consider their husbands as temporal mules), plus the influence of their Russian culture.  IMO an AW would more likely confront her husband about  problems and would not enter a new relationship before exiting the old relationship.   
 

There seems to be exceptional people and families that buck the trend and have a stronger sense of what is right in spite of the environment they grew up in, but, going by what I have witnessed and from what my wife has said, they are in the minority.

To say "minority" is rather damning.  However, if you consider Kuna's wife as dishonest and thus a part of this deceitful majority based on "no curse words" statement, I assert your standards are too rigid.  Believe it or not, I too abhor liars.  However, my standards are not based on a black-and-white analysis of the words but on 1)  the consequences of the deviation from the truth (e. g., whether potentally harmful or not, hiding a fly or elephant, etc.) and 2)  patterns (e. g., repetitive, pervasive).  What are the consequences of the false statement made by Kuna's wife.  IMO the consequences are positive and not harmful.   A pattern?  Kuna says no.
 

The trouble with lying is that it is easy, it's the lazy man's way out and it can become such a habit that it becomes pervasive. You can fudge the the grey area between truth and lies as much as you want, but a deliberate attempt to deceive is, IMO, wrong.

I am surprised that a man of you intellect would have such a rigid black-and-white opinion.  Just a word of advice - most people do not live in a black-and-white world.   Flexibility and diplomacy are very important.

[Misha]

The reason I had this "insight" into how pervasive these "flexible morals" are among FSUW is because she has been very candid with me about acquaintances she knows.

And Europeans and others don't have "flexible morals"? Are you going to tell me that the British don't "forget" to declare some income from time to time when completing their tax returns if they know that they won't get caught? Such "flexible morals" usually add up to billions of dollars and tend to be quite pervasive as well    In other words, FSUW don't have a monopoly on "flexible morals."


Where culture comes into play is in defining which "flexible" morals are more acceptable.

[OlgaH]

When our granny's doctor told us that she would not make even one year (she has a cancer), my mother and I lied to our granny, we did not tell her what the doctor told us, we told her that everything will be fine. So far our granny already made 3 years more, I don't know if it is due to the diet and herb supplements my mother forced on our granny or the hope we give her every other day or all together. Each day is counted, and every time when I talk to my granny she tells me "Olga, I will die soon, I don't feel good". I know it is true, but my tongue doesn't turn to tell her the truth and I lie: "No granny, you are the strongest woman I have ever known and you will wait for my next visit, I will bring you a new pair of shoes" Last time I brought her a pair shoes the style she likes along with other presents. She looked at me and said "why you spend such money on the shoes? I will die soon and in the coffin it doesn't matter what shoes will be on me" I replied that she will not die until she wears out the shoes but she should expect I will bring her another pair of shoes 


 

[Boethius]

And Europeans and others don't have "flexible morals"?

Sure, and many FSU individuals don't have flexible morals.  But the "layer" is larger there, at least, currently.

I don't think Ade will post examples, but I read the post he deleted, which listed some examples.  Suffice it to say the majority of them would be shocking to most Westerners.



A nice story, Olga.  I have witnessed many loved ones die.  I am convinced most people know when they are dying, even as those around them deny it.

[Ade]

And Europeans and others don't have "flexible morals"? Are you going to tell me that the British don't "forget" to declare some income from time to time when completing their tax returns if they know that they won't get caught? Such "flexible morals" usually add up to billions of dollars and tend to be quite pervasive as well    In other words, FSUW don't have a monopoly on "flexible morals."


Where culture comes into play is in defining which "flexible" morals are more acceptable.

No, as Boe pointed out, there are people everywhere with "flexible morales" but I've yet to come across as many people from such a wide variety of seemingly respectable and educated backgrounds, with such indifferent attitudes towards laws and basic ethics.

I don't really expect you or anyone else here, especially if they are married, to agree. My guess is that if you are married to a woman like my wife, she probably won't want to talk about it, and if you aren't, well, she probably won't want to talk about it either.

[OlgaH]

I think to be absolutely honest and never tell a lie means to be brutally honest and very often on the level of heartless cynicism. It means for example when a mother asks you "is not my baby cute?" you have to look in her eyes and say "no, your baby is the most ugliest baby I have ever seen in my life" if you think so just to be absolutely honest.

"I must be cruel only to be kind" Hamlet. William Shakespeare

"Compassion is the basis of all morality". Arthur Schopenhauer

Yes there is time to be cruelly honest to be kind and there is time to be "a lair lair pants on fire" to be kind and sympathetic. It is just up to the individual understandings of morals, kindness and compassion.

Honestly, I would rather prefer to keep a distance with a person who says that he is absolutely honest and never lies" 

[Rubicon]

Synni died of kidney failure.
 
ABBA are certainly my favourite group of the 1970s and early 80s, just ahead of Fleetwood Mac.  It's one of my real regrets that, as a teenager, I didn't have enough money to fly to Sydney to see them in concert on their amazing 1976 tour of Australia.  Unfortunately they never made it to New Zealand.

I was lucky enough to see them live in Seattle I believe in 1979.  It was also the first live concert I ever went to.  They put on a really great show!!

[Ade]

I think to be absolutely honest and never tell a lie means to be brutally honest and very often on the level of heartless cynicism. It means for example when a mother asks you "is not my baby cute?" you have to look in her eyes and say "no, your baby is the most ugliest baby I have ever seen in my life" if you think so just to be absolutely honest.

"I must be cruel only to be kind" Hamlet. William Shakespeare

"Compassion is the basis of all morality". Arthur Schopenhauer

Yes there is time to be cruelly honest to be kind and there is time to be "a lair lair pants on fire" to be kind and sympathetic. It is just up to the individual understandings of morals, kindness and compassion.

Honestly, I would rather prefer to keep a distance with a person who says that he is absolutely honest and never lies" 

You can usually tell the truth without being hurtful. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal you know although it can take some skill and effort to say the truth and not hurt. But that's the problem, it's so much easer in a lot of situations just to lie.

[Misha]

Sure, and many FSU individuals don't have flexible morals.  But the "layer" is larger there, at least, currently.

I don't think Ade will post examples, but I read the post he deleted, which listed some examples.  Suffice it to say the majority of them would be shocking to most Westerners.

Speaking from my Canadian experience, I can affirm that we have our layer that is pretty thick as well that is more than happy to prey upon the naive and happily steal them blind  The difference, perhaps, is that the pool of gullible and naive is perhaps deeper in Canada, but there are plenty of sharks as well 

[Rubicon]

Interesting that you think I have "issues". Which ones precisely?

Which ones??  Calling another man's wife a liar is very insulting, inappropriate and certainly lacks diplomacy.  Trying to force your rigid style of honesty on Kuna.  Not dropping it when it would have been better to just drop it instead of raising the conflict to a higher level.

Now if you think FSU women have flexible morals and you think that they as a group have this problem more than others then I would say that you never dated an Iranian women (or I could give another example).  This may or may not be true in your experience, yet it still does not make it proper to be so inflexible and simply rude towards another poster who shares this internet space.

[Boethius]

Speaking from my Canadian experience, I can affirm that we have our layer that is pretty thick as well that is more than happy to prey upon the naive and happily steal them blind  The difference, perhaps, is that the pool of gullible and naive is perhaps deeper in Canada, but there are plenty of sharks as well 

I never stated there are no sharks here.  However, I can assure you, it is worse in Ukraine, and I doubt Russia is much different.

[Rubicon]

You can usually tell the truth with being hurtful. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal you know although it can take some skill and effort to say the truth and not hurt. But that's the problem, it's so much easer in a lot of situations just to lie.

with being hurtful...Freudian slip??

[Misha]

I don't really expect you or anyone else here, especially if they are married, to agree. My guess is that if you are married to a woman like my wife, she probably won't want to talk about it, and if you aren't, well, she probably won't want to talk about it either.

The thing is, I don't have to get all my information from my wife  I have met plenty of wonderful FSU people on my own, and more than my share of less than honorable ones. What it teaches you is simple: you must not be naive and believe and accept everything that you are told. Also, a Manichean worldview does not do much good in the FSU...

[Rubicon]

When our granny's doctor told us that she would not make even one year (she has a cancer), my mother and I lied to our granny, we did not tell her what the doctor told us, we told her that everything will be fine. So far our granny already made 3 years more, I don't know if it is due to the diet and herb supplements my mother forced on our granny or the hope we give her every other day or all together. Each day is counted, and every time when I talk to my granny she tells me "Olga, I will die soon, I don't feel good". I know it is true, but my tongue doesn't turn to tell her the truth and I lie: "No granny, you are the strongest woman I have ever known and you will wait for my next visit, I will bring you a new pair of shoes" Last time I brought her a pair shoes the style she likes along with other presents. She looked at me and said "why you spend such money on the shoes? I will die soon and in the coffin it doesn't matter what shoes will be on me" I replied that she will not die until she wears out the shoes but she should expect I will bring her another pair of shoes 

That's a really great story Olga!!  It shows that the power of compassion and love can overcome so many obstacles!!