Cursing women

[Ade]

The thing is, I don't have to get all my information from my wife  I have met plenty of wonderful FSU people on my own, and more than my share of less than honorable ones. What it teaches you is simple: you must not be naive and believe and accept everything that you are told. Also, a Manichean worldview does not do much good in the FSU...

I'm sure you have met a lot of wonderful people in Russia. So have I.

[Misha]

I never stated there are no sharks here.  However, I can assure you, it is worse in Ukraine, and I doubt Russia is much different.

Worse, perhaps, but people are not as naive. However, it is not as bad some would believe 

[Ade]

Which ones??  Calling another man's wife a liar is very insulting, inappropriate and certainly lacks diplomacy.  Trying to force your rigid style of honesty on Kuna.  Not dropping it when it would have been better to just drop it instead of raising the conflict to a higher level.

Now if you think FSU women have flexible morals and you think that they as a group have this problem more than others then I would say that you never dated an Iranian women (or I could give another example).  This may or may not be true in your experience, yet it still does not make it proper to be so inflexible and simply rude towards another poster who shares this internet space.

You are of course trying to be funny, right?

Well, I was amused anyway.

[Boethius]

Worse, perhaps, but people are not as naive. However, it is not as bad some would believe 

Uh, yes, it is.  My husband, who lived there for over half his life, certainly thinks so.  I have never seen the level of duplicity here I have there, and I have seen some pretty wild things here.

[Rubicon]

You are of course trying to be funny, right?

Well, I was amused anyway.

No, not trying to be funny.  But if you were amused I guess it shows another side of you.  Perhaps you like to point fingers at somebody else, but not have it pointed back at you (??)

[Boethius]

While of course modern days Ukraine is not a direct descendant of Kievan Rus there is a direct relation between the two. I realised it when I went to Saint Sofia in Kiev. I have seen the tombs of people who are characters in Russian folk tales and whose names I heard from an early age (like Владимир Красное Солнышко).  So yes to me Kievan Rus is my direct roots as many other things in pre-soviet and pre-Romanov history. Can you say this about Canadian ingenious population history? With respect I do not think so Misha.

That was a good post, Ranetka, and I meant to address it at the time, but was sidetracked.

You are a little younger than my husband.  But you heard the same fairy tales he did as a child, the same fairy tales his mother did as a child, and the same fairy tales the children I saw running around on the streets heard.  I suppose we could say that is the same for Canadian children, but most of the fairy tales we learn are European (mostly from the Brothers Grimm).

There is no "one" indigenous Canadian culture.  Canadian first nations don't even all speak the same language.  A Mi'kmaq doesn't speak Mohawk, a Mohawk doesn't speak Cree, a Cree doesn't speak Haida.  The traditions are different.  Many first nations tribes warred against each other.  They don't have "one" unique culture, their traditions, cultures, and oral histories are unique to the Canadian tribe or region in which they reside.  That is far different from the fairy tales that children from Siberia to Transcarpathia have heard.

As for continuity of a people, my husband worked with a man who moved from a village.  His village nickname was "zhid".  Derogatory in Russian, not in Ukrainian.  When asked about the nickname, the man told my husband that in the early 1800's, a Jewish merchant traveled through his village, met and fell in love with a girl from the village, and settled there.   

There are not too many North Americans who can claim a nickname that has followed them through two generations, let alone, almost two centuries.

[Misha]

As for continuity of a people, my husband worked with a man who moved from a village.  His village nickname was "zhid".  Derogatory in Russian, not in Ukrainian.  When asked about the nickname, the man told my husband that in the early 1800's, a Jewish merchant traveled through his village, met and fell in love with a girl from the village, and settled there.   

There are not too many North Americans who can claim a nickname that has followed them through two generations, let alone, almost two centuries.

This does not make much sense. Are you trying to say that the man inherited a nickname from an ancestor two centuries prior ?!?

[Boethius]

Yup.  Not that unusual, either.

[Gator]

However, I can assure you, it is worse in Ukraine, and I doubt Russia is much different.

Again, No shiiit Sherlock!  Why would you and Ade think that RWD men are ignorant of such?
 
The Russian business world was like the Wild Wild West except there was no sheriff (or the sheriff was in cahoots with the bad guys).  Who in their right mind would start a new business with a RM without doing 10X the due diligence associated with American business.
 
In the not too distant past the RW romance venture was a minefield of possible scams.  Many of the threads at RWD and its predecessors were about scams.  There were so many scams that Western Union eventually prohibited sending money from AM to RW (even though I had sent money on several occasions, my wire transfer was denied).
 
It gets worse.  Maxx can tell you stories of RW wives damaging their AM husbands.  To top this, the RW felt no remorse.  They are bad apples.  I would welcome reading a psychological profile of one of the bad apples.
 
There are many bad apples in the FSU.  And while I believe most of the RW considering marriage to a western man are sincere and are not bad apples, they have been raised under a tree that yielded many bad apples.  There are many shades of grey.  And some lovable RW just may have been imprinted enough that deep inside is lurking something akin to the pitbull imperative.  [That comment should raise some eyebrows.]
 
Actually, I thought a woman coming from such an environment and yet still having good morals was more pure in heart that an AW with the same morals.  A remarkable jewel in fact.  Also, let us not overlook some advantages of having such a wife.  RW are skeptics and such is a good balance with my optimistic style.   I am amazed by the street smarts of RW - they see things that went over my head because they have lived in a less protective culture fraught with bad apples.

[Boethius]

That post would be a more appropriate response to Misha, Gator.

Why would you and Ade think that RWD men are ignorant of such?

Did I say that?

See above.

[Misha]

Yup.  Not that unusual, either.

Yes, because that is life in a small village, in Ukraine or elsewhere. If you were to go to small villages in Quebec and talk to people in their eighties, I am sure they could recount the oral history dating back from the 1800s too    and talk to real elder from Canada's aboriginal communities and they will be able to provide oral history going back even farther in time...

[Misha]

That post would be a more appropriate response to Misha, Gator.

Did I say that?

See above.

Gator is more than capable of replying to my posts on his own 

[Boethius]

Not really, Misha. 

My nephew's best friend lived 2 floors above us in the same apartment block.  His mother, a year younger than my husband, had tried, during high school, to commit suicide over a boy who rejected her.  Obviously, she survived, and had two children.  Her daughter had a misformed arm, due to an accident at birth.  My husband felt sorry for her, and used to give her candies.  She adored him, and used to tell my MIL she'd marry him when she grew up (notwithstanding he was married).

Baba lived with that family, and was in her eighties.  She babysat Sasha, a neighbour's child, when Sasha's mother was at work.  Baba used to call Sasha "Yosef", because, she said, Sasha had the exact same face as his long deceased Grandfather, who Baba had known since the Grandfather's youth.

Often, when we walked in the neighbourhood, a few blocks from our apartment, my husband would say hello to a young man or woman, maybe 10 years younger than us.  I'd ask who that was, and he'd tell me "X, I used to wipe her nose when she was running around here when she was five.  Now look, she has a baby."

I can't think of too many Canadian neighbourhoods with similar narratives.


As for Gator, you missed my point.  Again.

[Misha]

Not really, Misha. 

I'd ask who that was, and he'd tell me "X, I used to wipe her nose when she was running around here when she was five.  Now look, she has a baby."

I can't think of too many Canadian neighbourhoods with similar narratives.

Then, you don't know Canada very well    If I go to my home village and speak to the elderly inhabitants, they will know me, my parents, my parents and they too will be able to provide many colourful anecdotes....


It is fascinating how easily you can jump between extremes: either you provide such romanticized tales of Ukraine and then you will do a 180 and imply that all are evil.... I do concur with Gator: one is blind if one is incapable of seeing shades of grey.


To summarize, yes, there are many people who will be happy to use and abuse you in the FSU. However, once you know the culture, these people are easy enough to avoid or know how to deal with them. Most people, however, are extremely decent and good and such people will give you all they have should you need their help....

[OlgaH]

They are bad apples. 

Unfortunately they are everywhere.  Workers we hired to do some job on our house pilfered the construction materials in total about $1500. We were blindly trustful and very busy with work to control and I blame myself that I lost my Russian instinct - "trust but verify" 

Oh, and last year we changed the windows to gas filled double glazed windows,  the contractor did not seal the windows and covered it with trim when we were at work. We discovered it only this year when we were having carmel mountain stack stone completing construction on our home. Thank heaven we have a wrap around porch surrounding our home.
 

[Gator]

That post would be a more appropriate response to Misha, Gator.

Did I say that?

See above.

From above.
 

... I read the post he deleted, which listed some examples.  Suffice it to say the majority of them would be shocking to most Westerners.

Since the shocking part was deleted and only you saw it I assumed it had something to deal with deceitful RW, as if that were shocking.  Maybe it was worse than deceit such as murder.
 
 

As for Gator, you missed my point.  Again. 

And why would you write that just after writing "That post would be a more appropriate response to Misha, Gator.  Did I say that?"   I had not written anything in the interim, and you dismissed my earlier comment as not applicable to you. 
 
I notice Boethius that you are participating in at least three sidebars in this thread while I am limiting myself to one.  Although you have immense intellectual capacity, is it possible that you have missed something?    I am not accusing you of such, but just asking.    For example earlier you wrote "Unlike all of you" and corrected it to "others like you" when in fact there were no others, just one person thought she lied.  Jumper, Kuna, Rubicon and I had the same general opinion as you as did OlgaH so it seems.

[The Natural]

I notice Boethius that you are participating in at least three sidebars in this thread while I am limiting myself to one. 

Yeah Gator, but you gotta remember those gals are good at multitasking, unlike us fellows 

[Boethius]

Just a little distracted.  I've been checking in here while documents print, or when I'm scanning or searching (long wait times when you have many documents).  The benefits of self employment.

Anyway, the post you responded to was not an attempt by me to point to the horrors of FSU individuals, it was a riposte to Misha.

I actually don't believe the majority of FSU individuals are dishonest, just that it is more prevalant there than here, and there's less sympathy, I think, for victims, as if their own naivety/stupidity is to blame for their misfortune.

[Misha]

I actually don't believe the majority of FSU individuals are dishonest, just that it is more prevalant there than here, and there's less sympathy, I think, for victims, as if their own naivety/stupidity is to blame for their misfortune.

If a person keeps being scammed, it is hard not to blame for their misfortune...

[Jumper]

I actually don't believe the majority of FSU individuals are dishonest, just that it is more prevalant there than here, and there's less sympathy, I think, for victims, as if their own naivety/stupidity is to blame for their misfortune.

 
That is certainly my own experience.
 
 

[Boethius]

Then, you don't know Canada very well    If I go to my home village and speak to the elderly inhabitants, they will know me, my parents, my parents and they too will be able to provide many colourful anecdotes....


It is fascinating how easily you can jump between extremes: either you provide such romanticized tales of Ukraine and then you will do a 180 and imply that all are evil.... I do concur with Gator: one is blind if one is incapable of seeing shades of grey.

How many neighbourhoods in Canadian cities have the continuity of the Kyiv neighbourhood I lived in, Misha?  There have been four different neighbours in the house next door to me, six in the house three doors down.

How many rural Canadians can say they and their neighbours have lived on the same lands for 500 or 600 years?  Can those elderly inhabitants tell you stories of your parents' great grandparents, which is not an unusual occurrence in Ukrainian villages?


I haven't idealized or romanticized Ukraine.  If you see it that way, it is what you have assumed, not what I have posted.  Continuity or cultural observations are not "romanticism". 

As for being scammed, did I post that people have to be scammed continuously to earn scorn?  No, I did not.   

[Misha]

How many neighbourhoods in Canadian cities have the continuity of the Kyiv neighbourhood I lived in, Misha?  How many rural Canadians can say they and their neighbours have lived on the same lands for 500 or 600 years?

It is poetic, but it a false statement. They haven't lived on their lands for "500 or 600 years" at most they will live one lifetime on their lands. Again, very romantic, but it disregards both the turmoil of the past and the effect of modernity in breaking the imagined continuity over the centuries....

I haven't idealized or romanticized Ukraine.  If you see it that way, it is what you have assumed, not what I have posted.  Continuity or cultural observations are not "romanticism".

See the above. I stand by my analysis: you have idealized Ukraine as was often done in the Ukrainian Diaspora.

As for being scammed, did I post that people have to be scammed continuously to earn scorn?  No, I did not.

Well, a young adult sending thousands to the son of deposed Nigerian generals in 2011 would certainly produce a lot of scorn even if they were only scammed once... As always, context is essential. Somebody scammed who should have known better is not likely to generate much sympathy here or there...

[Boethius]

It is poetic, but it a false statement. They haven't lived on their lands for "500 or 600 years" at most they will live one lifetime on their lands. Again, very romantic, but it disregards both the turmoil of the past and the effect of modernity in breaking the imagined continuity over the centuries....

Yes, Misha.  I literally meant each individual has lived there for 600 years.

There is a continuity and a tie to the place where individuals' ancestors lived.  You will hear lots of Ukrainians say they would not leave the home of their ancestors, who fought and died with their blood for this particular land.  It is a very common attitude there.  It isn't in North America.

As for modernity, despite that "modernity", most Ukrainians are still largely tied to villages.  If you go to Kyiv in mid to late March, you will notice the city is less busy, as so many "Kyiyanins" go home to plant potatoes.

My Grandmother's village has oral traditions of Tatar raids which occurred in the 1400's.  Everyone in her family still lives in the village, but for 3 of the children of my mother's cousins, all of whom live in the nearest city.  Most of them are great grandmothers already.  One of my Grandmother's nieces lived in a neighbouring village, with her husband.  And this, despite the fact they all went to universities in cities, one in Kyiv.

See the above. I stand by my analysis: you have idealized Ukraine as was often done in the Ukrainian Diaspora.

How many Ukrainian villages have you visited, Misha?  You forget, I lived there for quite some time.  My husband, who spent more than a decade working or travelling in villages, has the same view.  Is his perspective "romanticized" as well?  It was not unusual to visit a village and be regaled with the story of how Hannia's chicken mysteriously disappeared in 1978.  It is a reality, not a romantic notion, that attitudes toward moving, especially away from the graves of your parents, are very different.  My MIL would never emigrate, because she could not imagine leaving the land her family has survived in for centuries, and she could never imagine never seeing the graves of her parents again.  A lot of Ukrainians feel the same way.

This may change now that borders are open and people can move far more freely, but this is still the reality of Ukraine at this particular point in time.  It is not "romantic".  It is reality.

Well, a young adult sending thousands to the son of deposed Nigerian generals in 2011 would certainly produce a lot of scorn even if they were only scammed once... As always, context is essential. Somebody scammed who should have known better is not likely to generate much sympathy here or there...

Shortly after the Soviet collapse, a girl from the apartment block went to work in Germany.  She came back with a significant amount of cash, earned working there illegally.  There were no banks then so really, her options in terms of transporting that cash were quite limited.  She was robbed within a day, by someone laying in wait.  Most of her neighbours thought that it was hilarious.  Do you really think most Canadians would have a similar reaction?

[Misha]

There is a continuity and a tie to the place where individuals' ancestors lived.  You will hear lots of Ukrainians say they would not leave the home of their ancestors, who fought and died with their blood for this particular land.  It is a very common attitude there.  It isn't in North America.

People say a lot of thing, especially when in a patriotic mood, but I do not take it at face value    Most Canadians will also say that they would never leave Canada and if you listen the French O Canada you will see that it refers to the land of our ancestors and the sacrifices made for the homeland 

As for modernity, despite that "modernity", most Ukrainians are still largely tied to villages.  If you go to Kyiv in mid to late March, you will notice the city is less busy, as so many "Kyiyanins" go home to plant potatoes.

Out of economic necessity. Given half a chance, most I wager would be more than happy to buy their potatoes in a supermarket.

My Grandmother's village has oral traditions of Tatar raids which occurred in the 1400's.

Yes, and the grandparents in Russian villages also have a rich oral tradition, those 50-and-younger, not so much.

How many Ukrainian villages have you visited, Misha?

I have visited dozens of Russian villages over 15 years, so I have seen more than my fair share of villages and have spoken to many villagers in Russia...

You forget, I lived there for quite some time.  It was not unusual to visit a village and be regaled with the story of how Hannia's chicken mysteriously disappeared in 1978.  It is a reality, not a romantic notion, that attitudes toward moving, especially away from the graves of your parents, is very different.

Again, it is sentimental, but if I visit my village in Canada, people will also tell you about events that occurred in the 1970s...

My MIL would never emigrate, because she could not imagine leaving the land her family has survived in for centuries, and she could never imagine never seeing the graves of her parents.  A lot of Ukrainians feel the same way.

Your point being? Many elderly people in Canadian towns and villages also wouldn't want to emigrate 

Shortly after the Soviet collapse, a girl in the apartment block went to work in Germany.  She came back with a significant amount of cash, earned working there illegally.  There were no banks then so really, her options in terms of transporting that cash were quite limited.  She was robbed within a day, by someone laying in wait.  Most of her neighbours that it was hilarious.  Do you really think most Canadians would have a similar reaction?

Well, jealousy and envy are quite universal. Under the right conditions, yes an unhappy event could generate humour if it an outlet for the underlying envy that the other's "success" created....

[Boethius]

People say a lot of thing, especially when in a patriotic mood, but I do not take it at face value    Most Canadians will also say that they would never leave Canada and if you listen the French O Canada you will see that it refers to the land of our ancestors and the sacrifices made for the homeland 

I have known many Ukrainians who had the opportunity to emigrate.  Many worked here illegally, some, during the boom, on working visas, and some were students, who had no desire to leave.  My MIL is another example.  She could come live with us, but to her, it is too foreign, and, as I posted, she can't imagine leaving her homeland.

Her siblings were all Ostarbeiter, who could have stayed in Germany.  One was even offered the farm of the couple he lived with (they had no children, and treated him well).  All returned to Stalin's USSR, knowing they would face ostracism, because they could not imagine leaving the land of their forefathers.

Out of economic necessity. Given half a chance, most I wager would be more than happy to buy their potatoes in a supermarket.

No, potatoes are pretty cheap in Ukraine.  They are still tied to those villages, and do what they have always done.  Granted, they can sell their produce and earn some extra cash.

Yes, and the grandparents in Russian villages also have a rich oral tradition, those 50-and-younger, not so much.

I am talking about Ukraine, not Russia.  That oral tradition is still alive and well in my Grandmother's village.

I have visited dozens of Russian villages over 15 years, so I have seen more than my fair share of villages and have spoken to many villagers in Russia...

Russia has far, far fewer inhabited villages than does Ukraine.  That was the case even in the 1970's, and I suspect it is more so now.

Again, it is sentimental, but if I visit my village in Canada, people will also tell you about events that occurred in the 1970s...

Sigh.  You missed the point.  It is not about "sentimentalism".  It is about a continuity of a lifestyle, how things don't change.  And please don't tell me about how rural Alberta has not changed.  It has.   When you were growing up, people didn't even have to lock their doors.  Not so now.  My uncle, in Central Alberta, had his truck stolen from right in front of his farmhouse in the middle of the night.  There are grow ops in the region you grew up in (northeast of Edmonton? per your previous description), chop shops, murders.  Not something that would have even been imagined when you were growing up.

Your point being? Many elderly people in Canadian towns and villages also wouldn't want to emigrate 

Did I post they were all "elderly"?  See above.  There are lots of students from Ukraine who study in Alberta, and many have no desire to stay.

Well, jealousy and envy are quite universal. Under the right conditions, yes an unhappy event could generate humour if it an outlet for the underlying envy that the other's "success" created....

You dodged the direct question.