She is here! My 'trip' report continues

[jb]

Clyde,

Are you really that dense?

Re-read the PM for Gawd's sake.  If you have any question about what I said please remember PM's are PRIVATE ~!!!

[Son of Clyde]

jb you must have sent it in a hurry, I had to reread it several times.

Sorry for my response, it was deleted.

And I do not post pm's on any board I was alluding to what I thought you were saying. Maybe KenC made a copy of my post before I reworded it.

[jb]

Clyde,

I'll make a deal with you, just delete the PM and I'll never have any future contact  with you again.

Does that sound fair to you?

[Son of Clyde]

jb, I am soooooo upset you no longer want to be my friend.

[KenC]

Racerx, you deserve mana for that post.

Clyde, you are one of these over the 500 post wall

And Doug itself is over these 500 limit...

Negate the value of a post ( because the poster have already post a lot ) don't deserve mana... the only problem that i see here is that sometime people use more time to destroy idea from other that post own idea... really easy to say that someone is wrong when no other alternative are proposed...
[/quote]
Huh?  No alternatives proposed?  You had better improve your reading skills because that is exactly the problem here.  Doug has refused most of all the good suggestions for alternatives to his silly plan.

KenC

[jb]

Clyde,

Don't aggrandize yourself, I was never your friend.

[jb]

Ken has the right of it here.  A huge amount of bandwidth was expended for the purpose of educating PG.  It was all for naught. 

IIRC, a similar amount of bandwidth was likewise expended to educate Barney17.

Some people get it, others do not.

[Son of Clyde]

jb, keep this off the board ok?

Send me a nasty pm I don't much care. You are jb, you will always be jb, you see no value in change.

I am trying to change. I am trying to contribute to the board, maybe I have nothing of value to contribute. If this is true I will fade away. This board is not real life. I gave you an opportunity to contact me and you chose not to do so. I learned a long time ago you were not interested in being my friend. Old news now.

You seem to have a great capacity for offensive hurtful remarks and I am trying to refrain from offending others. You continue to be jb and I will struggle as Clyde and make mistakes and hopefully learn from them.

[Admin]

I see no value in dredging up old news which occurred on another board eons ago.

Take it into the PM system or email, if you really MUST grieve each other.

- Dan

[Bruno]

[size="3"]Huh?  No alternatives proposed?  You had better improve your reading skills because that is exactly the problem here.  Doug has refused most of all the good suggestions for alternatives to his silly plan.[/size]

[size="3"]KenC[/size]

Ken, i was not speaking over old poster ( with more of 500 post )... these old poster are here from more of one year and have follow the Doug story from the very beginning... but more about some newcomers who make comment on this topic without know all the story...

Yes, Doug have use a strange way... one that i will never use for myself... but until now, he seem lucky... Several have give him good advice... he have follow some and refused a lot of other...

And after more of one year... i think that good or bad advice, Doug will not follow them... He will follow his own way... and it is his right... Simply i hope that the ship will not sink since he is not alone in the ship...

And about my reading skill, don't worry... i improve it everyday ...

[Turboguy]

Huh?  No alternatives proposed?  You had better improve your reading skills because that is exactly the problem here.  Doug has refused most of all the good suggestions for alternatives to his silly plan.

KenC

Well as I sit in Moscow catching up on the events of the past week,  I will say one thing.  Had Doug made another visit or two before starting on the K-1 he would have been doing pretty much what you guys think he should have except for the language part which is something he has to either deal with or not.   Does anyone really think one or two more short visits would have let him learn that much.

I think if they were both looking at the K-1 as a vacation then it would be wrong.  I think they both had serious intentions of marriage as long as things went well and they both liked what they found in their life together in America.  They only way they would really find out is what they did anyway.  Even a couple of short visits would not have told them what they need to find out.

I think dougs hopes are he will help others in their learning process.  Yes, it may be how not to do things but I have learned and I think others have.  I am glad he has shared the details of what he experiences.

 

 

[Son of Clyde]

I don't know what has transpired in the last few days. But it isn't over until it's over.

Regardless of the outcome I think Doug has learned a lot about himself and living with a Russian woman. I am just a few months ahead of Doug and it is still not a bed of roses. I don't see how any relationship can be perfect. I am working out things with my wife without asking anyone here for advice. It seems to be doing some good.

I think this thread can be constructive if we follow the story from Doug and no one else. Doug is experiencing this, not any of us.  

[KenC]

Huh?  No alternatives proposed?  You had better improve your reading skills because that is exactly the problem here.  Doug has refused most of all the good suggestions for alternatives to his silly plan.

KenC

[/quote]
Well as I sit in Moscow catching up on the events of the past week,  I will say one thing.  Had Doug made another visit or two before starting on the K-1 he would have been doing pretty much what you guys think he should have except for the language part which is something he has to either deal with or not.   Does anyone really think one or two more short visits would have let him learn that much.

I think if they were both looking at the K-1 as a vacation then it would be wrong.  I think they both had serious intentions of marriage as long as things went well and they both liked what they found in their life together in America.  They only way they would really find out is what they did anyway.  Even a couple of short visits would not have told them what they need to find out.

I think dougs hopes are he will help others in their learning process.  Yes, it may be how not to do things but I have learned and I think others have.  I am glad he has shared the details of what he experiences.

 

 
[/quote]
Turbo,

You must be jet lagged my friend, because using your "logic" why then bother to go meet the gal at all?  If you both have the same intentions, just "order her up" and have her shipped over FedX.  It is silly to think that more visits (short or long) wouldn't have helped set a better foundation for marriage.

KenC

[Photo Guy]

[size="3"][color="navy"]KenC,
[color="darkred"]How bad[/color] are things with Larysa and Me?

Your entire line of thinking is based on your imagination-
[color="black"]You imagine that our relationship is rotten[/color]. Not true. So get a [color="blue"]clue[/color].
Just because I mention a problem or two doesn't mean being with her is not worthwhile.

An update: things are improving and her English teacher is praising her  progress after four weeks of lessons. I can see her progress and her  attitude is slowly becoming more cheerful and less  'homesick'.   ...Our conversations are getting longer and  more complex.   [color="blue"]..And we still enjoy the jacuzzi.[/color]  [/color]
[/size]

[ronin308]

Turboguy, the first thing another visit would have done is had him find out the problems Larissa was having with the language.  Correcting that is a huge deal in terms of putting stress on the two of them during the K-1.  Right now she is having to learn the language, learn about Photo and make a decision that will effect her for quite some time, if not the rest of her life.

1 or 2 additional 2 week visits would have put them a little further ahead of the game, in terms of the decision making process.  Instead of spending 4 weeks here to be able to have a complex conversation that should have happened months ago.

There are many roads to success in life.  In my opinion Photo's choices have made him walk down the more difficult road than he had to go.  He still can be successful, but he simply made it harder on himself than it had to be.  I think that is one of the big lessons to learn here. 

 

 

[KenC]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

KenC,
How bad are things with Larysa and Me?

Your entire line of thinking is based on your imagination-
You imagine that our relationship is rotten. Not true. So get a clue.
Just because I mention a problem or two doesn't mean being with her is not worthwhile.

An update: things are improving and her English teacher is praising her progress after four weeks of lessons. I can see her progress and her attitude is slowly becoming more cheerful and less 'homesick'.   ...Our conversations are getting longer and more complex.   ..And we still enjoy the jacuzzi. 

Photo,

Get off the peyote would ya?  At no time have I ever said things were "bad" or that your relationship is "rotten."  What I have said, time and time again, is that you are taking foolish and unnecessary risks with your life and Larysa's by rushing everything.  (So it is you that is clueless)((Again))

Glad to hear her English is progressing.  BTW, the homesickness really doesn't go away for the first few years, so don't hold your breath on that one.  You got to be closing in on 30 days left on her visa, any indication of what she is going to do yet?

KenC

[/size]

[Oosik]

Guys,

How is it of value to constantly deride PG? If he rejects your advice or opinions, and you reinforce your advice or opinions with even better (you think) arguments, and he still dissagrees, MOVE ON!!

I think most of us see some goofy stuff going on with his deal, but remember:

Telling other people how to live their lives is bad enough, but demanding that they validate your opinon of them is bizzare.

[BWDave]

whassup all,  been reading this "thread" as you all call it for more than a week now but am going to discontinue doing so if it keeps going the way that it is. I'm tired of the "doug bashing" and I do'nt even know the guy. I think that most of you are genuine in your efforts to help the guy but there is one in particular, and maybe another, that seems to  be using this just for entertainment. His entertainment that is, he sure is'nt entertaining me. Lets hear more from you doug, and when I say this I mean tell me about the last time that you took her to dinner, or how's it going in the bedroom,, how does she like Arizona,,  did you take her to Rawhide ( I'm a florida boy but I"ve been to Rawhide a couple of times, dated a Scottsdale girl while doing some time in the army) I'm sure she would have a blast there,  All I'm getting at is it sure would be nice if Doug had more time to talk about things like this, but the poor guy has to spend his time defending his actions and decisions. Good luck Doug and please keep us informed.  Dave

[jinx13]

 Yes, I agree with the last guy, enough of the bull. Give Doug a chance to tell what's happening in their everyday life, thats what us "newbies" want to read, not all you veterans bashing on someone saying the same crap over and over again but just phrasing it in different way.

 I want to know details, how do you speak with each other? do you use translation devices, or just try and use basic english? do you try and speak Russian? Does she complain about our food (already know the answer I think) Does she like the weather, the people, is she annoyed by their courtesy (hello, how are you, how is your meal?) or does she find it refreshing not to have frowning, rude Natasha serving her meals at restaurants?

 These are just a few things I could think of, I'm sure Doug can tell a lot more. I check this thread almost everyday and always see him trying to defend himself, it's rediculous, she's here, they are trying, give them a chance!  Hope to hear more true life, and less bull - Dave

[Son of Clyde]

When the newbies have to post here in defense of Doug, something is terribly wrong. I don't think this thread is the most constructive thread for a newbie to read and be able to think he is going to receive decent advice here. Well, maybe they will receive good advice if they can take the harsh criticisms that come with it. I thought this board was going to be better than that other one. Dan is trying his best to make it a great board without having to edit our posts. But what is the new guy to think? Will he trust us to give advice?

[Turboguy]

First off, I think there is a lot of good in these posts.  I think the Doug bashing is not part of that.

Before I talk about Doug, I think there was a bit of Clyde bashing in the past, here and other places.   I think Clyde's experiences have been really helpful to a lot of people and I think Clyde has immerged as a real inspiration to many people.  It is not a bed of roses for him sometimes but both he and his bride have a dedication to working through their difficulties and a commitment to each other and I think in they will find what they both wanted, a happy life together.

I was not implying in my previous post that nothing could be gained by Doug making another trip.   It is sort of like if you want to buy a Corvette will test driving a Silverado help you make that decision.  Larisas concerns were that she wanted to see what her life in America would be like and what her life with Doug would be like.  I think they both went into it with the goal of having a happy life togeter.

I will agree with those that are tired of the Doug bashing.  Most of it is the same tired stuff we have heard for 10 months and most of it is pulled from what someone imagines which may have little or now basis in truth.  I don't think bashing anyone is constructive.

Something I have always felt is that our choices in who we spend our life with are often based on a few defining moments.   That it is not spending months and months with someone it is something that is said or done for a few minutes in all that time.  I can think of one gal who I liked a lot.   One of the things I liked about her was that as we walked around the city she could not pass one of the old babuskas begging in the street without putting a few coins in her cup.  It made me feel she had a lot of compassion for people.  With my former Fiancee Luda it was one event pertaining to a cab ride that always came back to my mind and made me overlook a lot of red flags I should not have.   I think with Doug and Larisa the thing he talked about and the kids made him feel she had a good heart and was someone she wanted to be with.  I think those defining moments can also happen the other way.   One gal I met who seemd nice decided she wanted to drink Vodka in the morning.  If I wasn't for that, I liked her but that was a defining moment that made me say, move on.  The girl that is special to me right now, there was one thing that my mind keeps going back to.  Otherwise she seemed wonderful but that one episode was a defing moment for me.

Personally I think if two people want to be together, language, age difference, eductation, distance, money, parents, chidlren or whatever things are against them.  If they want it bad enough they will make it happen.  Perhaps I am just a romantic at heart or perhaps I am just stupid and nieve, more likely a little of both.  It is just what I believe.

[jb]

I can understand why certain men would defend PG's methods, since their own thought processes were not so different. 

To the newbies who wonder about this thread I would say the following; most men have a list in mind of what are the traits in a woman they want when they marry and what charactistics they think are desirable, and also what they absolutely cannot live with.  (High on my list was whining and nagging)
Any women can put on the "Happy Face" for a week or so and you will never know what type of woman you are dealing with until later when she becomes more comfortable around you.  So you need to know the woman to whom you propose marriage fairly well, i.e., more than 4-5 days. 

It should be emblazoned on street corners that evil can lurk behiind pretty faces, men tend to forget that in the presence of a pretty face and a new pair of tits. You also need to meet her family because she is going to be a carbon copy of her mother in not that many years.

I submit this to you as "constructive" advice when thinking about a foreign bride.  Disregard any of these items at your own risk.
 

[Jet]

   Does anyone really think one or two more short visits would have let him learn that much.
---/snip/---
  Even a couple of short visits would not have told them what they need to find out.

All bashing aside, this type of thinking is the crux of my difficulty with this situation as I have come to understand it. Perhaps I'm more pragmatic than some, but I also understand that in ANY relationship, the first 6 months is the "infatuation stage" and wish fulfillment type thinking runs rampant in the hearts and minds of both the man and the woman, and no matter how you slice it, the first visit is "holidays" and bears NO resemblance to real life. The value I found in my subsequent visits to Liliya, was that it gave me the opportunity to see how she interacted with others in the community, in a setting where she was comfortable and confident; it gave the opportunnity to see how her parents interacted with each other in daily life; it gave me the opportunity to have an argument with the woman who would most probably become my wife, and to see her when she was upset/angry/frustrated/irritated; it gave me the opportunity to meet the people she had chosen to be her friends and interact with them. I learned quite a lot in a couple of short visits, and it perplexes me why others would not be interested in gaining the same type of knowledge. Even with all I learned in Russia, there were still many more obsticals to overcome once Liliya was here, and had I not been armed with the knowledge I aquired abroad (and the reassurances of what I thought I originally detected about my wife's strengths, weaknesses, and character), I might very well have ended up like the "restraining order guy" from the thread Catzenmouse started. THAT, in my opinion is the value of making a second (or third, or forth) trip, and that value is all too often underestimated....

[Turboguy]

Jet, I am not saying that it would not have given them more insight.  If I find the right gal I plan to visit all I can and want to do that for more than one reason.  I think it reaffirms that you are serious for one thing.  

In my case of last year which most of you know about, and where things did not go as I hoped, I have to say the gal I met on my second trip to see her was a totally different gal than I met on my first trip.  Night and day difference.  My biggest problem was that I got hooked enough on my first trip to overlook the red flags i saw on my second trip thinking it might be pms or something. 

I think the things they needed to know the most they could only find out with here her but no, I don't think the way Doug did it is the best way.   It could be the best way for them depending on finances and available time but I would not suggest it as a good way to go.    It seems only logical to me that the more time two people spend together the more they will know about each other.  No if's ands or buts.  One way or the other that part is behind them and they tried it thier way.  If it works great.  If it does't you guys told him so but I just think the bashing and repeating the same tired lines accomplishes nothing.  

[jb]

It could be the best way for them depending on finances and available time but I would not suggest it as a good way to go.

I think T/G has inadvertently put his finger on the crux of the matter when he mentions finances and time.  It has been said a zillion times that this is not an endeavor for the ill prepared.  It is time consuming and expensive to pursue a foreign bride.  Very.  Doug apparently did not have the necessary resources to invest in further trips, he pulled the trigger after having spent only a few days in Kiev.  I realize the trip report has been re-written to not reflect the true nature of the courtship, so the newbie reading this will not understand anything of the "why", and only see "Doug Bashing" when in fact it is more like the old married guys who are just shaking their heads in wonderment. 

I have never wished bad things for Doug and Larissa, quite the contrary, I hope they achieve everything their heart's desire.  Although, I often think as I read his posts, that I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

As I've already said, if it all works out for the better, Doug should never make another bet in his life, 'cause he's used up all his allotted luck for this lifetime.