Bringing up kids....

[Ranetka]

Everytime I think I know all about English culture something unexpected will happen and I will realised I forever will be an alien.
 
An acquentice recently discovered her 12 y.o. daughter stole £20 and spent it on sweets.
 
The mother amongst other things went to the police and asked them to have a chat with a girl "to put a fear of God" into her.
 
I can only imagine how horrified the poor kid was.
 
I can not imagine a Russian parent doing anything like this to a 12 yo who nicked a few quid to buy some sweets for her school friends.
 
What do you think? Would you do it? Do you think it's a correct thing to do?

[Boethius]

No.  My children would never steal, but any bad behaviour by them has always been dealt with by me and my husband, not strangers.   A mother who needs to have the police speak to her twelve year old is not parenting her child.

[BC]

It's probably not the first time, thus such reaction.

Stealing can be a sign of deeper trouble - possibly trust issues.

More positive, or even professional attention might help.

[Ranetka]

It's probably not the first time, thus such reaction.

Stealing can be a sign of deeper trouble - possibly trust issues.

More positive, or even professional attention might help.

Apparently the first time. Never before and mother now is cryiing all night because of the broken trust and how wrong her child is.
 
I agree with what you said about deeper trouble though.
 
Still 12 yo....£20....sweets.....and a policeman????
 

[Rubicon]

Everytime I think I know all about English culture something unexpected will happen and I will realised I forever will be an alien.
 
An acquentice recently discovered her 12 y.o. daughter stole £20 and spent it on sweets.
 
The mother amongst other things went to the police and asked them to have a chat with a girl "to put a fear of God" into her.
 
I can only imagine how horrified the poor kid was.
 
I can not imagine a Russian parent doing anything like this to a 12 yo who nicked a few quid to buy some sweets for her school friends.
 
What do you think? Would you do it? Do you think it's a correct thing to do?

I would have scolded her because she did not also bring me a Ham sandwich.  Definitely no police involvement unless there is something of a more serious nature which has been going on for quite some time.  Parents should build trust and love with their children and deal with issues directly with their children.  Outsiders have no business getting involved.

[Ranetka]

I would have scolded her because she did not also bring me a Ham sandwich.  Definitely no police involvement unless there is something of a more serious nature which has been going on for quite some time.  Parents should build trust and love with their children and deal with issues directly with their children.  Outsiders have no business getting involved.

I am very pleased to have some post from you I am in total agtreement with. 

[Rubicon]

I am very pleased to have some post from you I am in total agtreement with. 

Me too!!

[Muzh]

No.  My children would never steal, but any bad behaviour by them has always been dealt with by me and my husband, not strangers.   A mother who needs to have the police speak to her twelve year old is not parenting her child.

How right you are on this!!!


My 6'5" 235lb 17 yo still gets the "look" once in a while. My friends are amazed when they see this and my son bows his head. Keep in mind I never laid a hand on them.

[The Natural]

You keep it in the family! My take on this is to avoid involving the authorities as far as possible in any matters regarding the family. They already put their noses far too much in private affairs.
 
What if the police decided to make even a further issue of such an episode and involved the CPS? Now, that could get real nasty as has been documented many times from many instances.

[BC]

You keep it in the family! My take on this is to avoid involving the authorities as far as possible in any matters regarding the family. They already put their noses far too much in private affairs.
 
What if the police decided to make even a further issue of such an episode and involved the CPS? Now, that could get real nasty as has been documented many times from many instances.

Natural,

That may work for a while but relies on the family being able to get to the root of the problem.  Is too often not the case and things tend to escalate thereafter.  Many parents tend to believe that asking for outside assistance somehow means they are unfit parents and this is simply not true.  Kids are not born with an instruction manual and parenting can be very challenging.

A young child that steals something is not in itself a problem, depending on how it is dealt with.  After stealing a water pistol, my father took me back to the store and paid for it.  We had a talk and he told me 'Son.. if there is something you need so badly that you think you have to steal it, let us know and if we can we will buy it for you."  think I was somewhere around 6 or 7 at the time.  This same message has been passed down to the next generation.

A 12 year old should have formed a good sense of right and wrong, thus my thoughts that it is quite possible some deeper issues are at play like peer pressure, low self esteem, emotional needs not met etc..  I don't know what would bring a parent to take the child to the cops as a 'lesson' unless their parents used the same 'technique'.   

But I also remember our neighbor who was a cop took us kids down to the jailhouse one day.  We were not in trouble or had done anything wrong, but a touch of reality isn't bad IMHO. This was on a military base so the jail was quite tame.  Maybe this parent thought it would be a good experience.  The best outcome might have been if the cops asked the mother whether or not the child was being given a regular allowance.  Cops are usually pretty astute people so I doubt they raised all kinds of hell with the child.  I can imagine they are confronted with similar parents fairly often.

[Gator]

I am not a black-and-white thinker.  Me thinks this is not the first time for this 12-yo to do something really bad.  Kids suddenly don't convert from an angel to satan's seed.  Perhaps the mother has attempted in the past to correct bad behavior and the pattern continues.  Nevertheless, going to the police should be a last resort (after a psychologist).  Meanwhile, there are other steps to include withholding privileges for a long, long time.   
 
With some kids it is almost hopeless.  My two Russian stepkids were as different as night and day.  The daughter was indeed an angel.  The son lied incessantly.  Even when presented with evidence that we knew he was dishonest, he refused to admit he lied.  His mama would punish him severely and it did not work.  Add to that his proclivity to get into fights at school, I would be saving some money for his legal defense fund if he were still my responsibility.    The fighting in school started to decline when his peers learned to prepare for him and inflicted pain (peer discipline is very effective).  To his credit, I don't think he ever stole money.  I would guess that his problem had psychological roots.

[remiel6]

my wife and I joke that our son, who is now only 2 months old, might fear having a chat in dads office more than he does the police. I also would never hit a child, but sometimes being forced to explain yourself and the embarrassment might be more valuable. Without knowing the mother or the child its hard to say if this mother was right. It seems a bit extreme though.

[BC]

With some kids it is almost hopeless.  My two Russian stepkids were as different as night and day.  The daughter was indeed an angel.  The son lied incessantly.  Even when presented with evidence that we knew he was dishonest, he refused to admit he lied.  His mama would punish him severely and it did not work.  Add to that his proclivity to get into fights at school, I would be saving some money for his legal defense fund if he were still my responsibility.    The fighting in school started to decline when his peers learned to prepare for him and inflicted pain (peer discipline is very effective).  To his credit, I don't think he ever stole money.  I would guess that his problem had psychological roots.

Gator,

A lot of dynamics in play for sure..

I tend to think along the lines of:

Scream at a child enough and the child will learn screaming is ok.

Hit a child enough and the child will learn violence is ok.

Make a child feel worthless enough and the child will believe you at some point.

Abandon a child emotionally and you'll teach them to rely on only 'self' for their needs with distrust of everyone else on earth. - My way or highway.

Add it all together and you'll end up with a violent loudmouth capable of doing practically anything to satisfy perceived needs since "It doesn't really matter anyway what I do since even my parents tell me I'm not worth anything anyway"

There has been a good amount of discussion in the past about trust with WM/RW relationships.. the same applies to our relationships with kids.

A child should know who to turn to when difficulties arise.. like 'Mom, all the kids are taunting me because I don't have any candy to share when we meet at the park..'  or 'Mom, why do the kids in our neighborhood only like me when I have candy?'

I remember an old TV announcement, "Do you know where your children are?"  I really think there should be announcements like "Did you give your child a hug today?"

It's really the best thing a parent can do.  Make it a part of [dot]every[/dot] day, good or bad.

[Gator]

Hit a child enough and the child will learn violence is ok.

You are absolutely correct and speak as a father, seemingly a good one.  Regarding your example, I have seen mothers slap a kid and yell "Don't hit!"  Duh.....
 
My point about the my two ex-stepkids, both are from the same womb and same home, yet as different as night and day.  I spent many years with those two kids, and I observed no difference in the standards mama used for one vs. the other.  Raising kids is indeed a complex and demanding ordeal, yet rewarded with joy. 

[TheTraveler]

This doesn't sound like anything that couldn't be handled within the family with a forced ice cold shower and some hot sauce.

[Gator]

This doesn't sound like anything that couldn't be handled within the family with a forced ice cold shower and some hot sauce.

I don't believe corrective measures involving physical pain are as effective as other measures. 
 
I guess that this will start a debate about whether to spank or not.   My ex-wife from Moscow spanked her kids until they were about 10, but mostly punished them in other ways.  I discussed this with her and she did listen.  What surprised me the most is how she would lock them alone in their apartment when she worked or went out.

[Daveman]

I don't believe corrective measures involving physical pain are as effective as other measures. 
 
...

I took the Saudikrain approach.  Whacked off the arm and then made Borsht.  I guess it involved a little pain at first, but he got over it and the lesson took hold well. Dinner wasn't half bad either. Had a very "Chickeny" taste.

[GQBlues]

Boredom, unspent energy, unproductive attention, etc...always produce bad behavior on kids, especially the boys. Kids at these young age(s) need constant output, or source to expend a lot of their energies and attention.
 
One of the things an ex-GF showed me before was, when speaking to a child is to make sure as much posssible, get down to their level (meaning kneeling down and speaking). Kids would easily associate fear (negative) to violence (ultra negative) from those who emphasize authorities. Anyway you can alleviate this type of association is always prescribed. Kids tend to listen and absorb instruction better when not intimidated (maybe part of the reason why children will first confide and trust their peers than their parents). Kids easily associate many things growing up and sadly, pain and fear are alway on the forefront of those associations.
 
My kid brother, IMO, is the world's greatest Dad in the way how his kids are and had become within the family and out in society. None of his kids were ever spanked.
 
Interestingly, a lot of these 'tips' also holds true for Cesar Milan and his pack.
 
Hard to opine on the mother's action for calling the cops. Not enough info..
 

[BC]

My point about the my two ex-stepkids, both are from the same womb and same home, yet as different as night and day.  I spent many years with those two kids, and I observed no difference in the standards mama used for one vs. the other.  Raising kids is indeed a complex and demanding ordeal, yet rewarded with joy.

Just guessing.. - the boy is older?

In any case, and not pointing a finger at your ex or yourself, normal sibling rivalry and jealousy may go a bit overboard when a major role model (usually the father) is not present.  I noted this with our daughter around 10 or so when our son was born.  Mama of course was giving more attention to the newborn so she sought more attention from me at the time.  I can see an elder child in a single parent household feeling quite left out, even a bit abandoned.. so attention of any kind, even bad is sought elsewhere.

Aside from that boys are boys and their actions somewhat a mystery to some mothers.

I really have to thank my parents for their dedication and ability to keep our family together, even through some very rough times.  I cannot recall a single quarrel or raised voice between them and this alone has much to do with my demeanor today.  I remember a 'warm' home with plenty of hugs to go 'round. 

[Gator]

I remember a 'warm' home with plenty of hugs to go 'round.

I grew up the same, and I recommend the same background for any future wife. 
 
My ex-wife had none of this as in NONE - an orphan with living parents raised by her stern grandmother.  Our family counselor knew my situation and asked rhetorically, "You were married for 25 years to a clinically depressed spouse, so why did you marry a woman with an untreated psychological condition?" 

[BC]

I grew up the same, and I recommend the same background for any future wife. 
 
My ex-wife had none of this as in NONE - an orphan with living parents raised by her stern grandmother.  Our family counselor knew my situation and asked rhetorically, "You were married for 25 years to a clinically depressed spouse, so why did you marry a woman with an untreated psychological condition?"

Is indeed a good question.. -why we can't follow our own advice.  Maybe because experience precedes knowledge?

You live, you learn IMHO..

Gator, we'll have to sit down together one day for a beer or three and commiserate.

My son and I laugh at each other when this song plays on the radio.  He's quite a 'catch' and has had his share of 'doozie' relationships too..

If you wanna be happy For the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife,
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall.
As soon as he marries her
Then she starts to do The things that will break his heart.
But if you make an ugly woman your wife,
You'll be happy for the rest of your life,
An ugly woman cooks her meals on time,
She'll always give you peace of mind.

Don't let your friends say You have no taste,
Go ahead and marry anyway,
Though her face is ugly, Her eyes don't match,
Take it from me she's a better catch.

Say man.
Hey baby.
Saw your wife the other day.
Yeah?
Yeah, she's ugly.
Yeah, she's ugly but she sure can cook.
Yeah?. Okay.

Jimmy Soul

[I/O]

Renetka: I think you've jumped to an erroneous suggestion that this is anything to do with culture, nationality or location, it's people and to suggest it wouldn't happen among your countrypeople is wrong, trust me, I know so on this exact example, I've seen it..........sadly. Secondly, I don't think it an appropriate course of action period. There's been a huge breakdown in communications and or family structure long before this happened.

Furthermore (humour insert), it isn't generational or national. My mother and my wife alike threatened their children with "I'll call the police" or "the police will get you" to deal with errant boys from time to time and at least twice in history, action was added by accident. My mother, in the '60's with three young boys in hand was attempting to cross a street amid a day long shopping expedition. Traffic was as thick as the frustration and from nowhere, a young policeman on foot patrol appeared, swept two of the boys (my brothers) up in his arms, beckoned the traffic to stop, my mother apparently swept me up and they crossed the street, all three boys having eyes like dinner plates. You can guess mothers threats had taken on real meaning and the childrens behaviour was considerably improved for the balance of the day if not year as "the police will get you" had taken on real meaning.

Fast forward to around 2007, Mrs I/O is attempting the escalator to one of the Metro stations in central Moscow, umpteen bags in hand and a tired complaining child in tow. Her threats of "the police will get you" took on real meaning as she was running late and probably in tears, a handful of foot patrol Moscow police officers sized up the situation, a couple of them grabbed her bags, another picked up the lad (3 1/2 years old at the time) and assisted her down the escalator, through the maize and onto the correct metro car. My stepson still relates to me that you need to be careful if you are naughty, the police can "get you". A side point, Russian police are NOT all bad, there are a few really decent guys among them and we'd both love to catch up with that Moscow group one day, their efforts allowed Mrs to catch a plane she was sure to miss.

I know about parenting only what I've learnt through having a step child for a few years and now a few months old baby. One protocol I've established for myself and it seems to work is 3"C's". Concern, Clarity and Consitency. I concern myself with childrens interests and desires together with what I think is good for them and I understand the two don't always concur. I try to be very clear with the guidelines and consistently don't waver (for the most part).

Our kids are not perfect, we both know and understand that but we did get a huge buzz on holidays this last few weeks. We were staying in a situation with, among others, a large group of retirees who can be quite "expecting" of children and very judgemental. We make a special effort in such situations to keep baby quiet and mostly successfully but our son is allowed his freedom largely, after all, it is holiday time. A spectacle wearing old PITA who was making comment on anything and everything (she probably attends many on line forums, shoot me) approached us as we were walking to the beach and remarked "you have lovely children, it's hard to imagine such well behaved kids in this day and age". We were blown away because, frankly, our kids are nothing special in that respect. Perhaps simple methodology is working at this stage and no, I'd never call in the police................

[Ranetka]

Thanks I/O. I no longer think it is cultural as a few people here said they would not call the police.
IT Is just my other friend I discussed it with was adamant this is what needs to be done and talked about it like it was a ususal thing to do hence my assumption.
 
Once again I would like to say to people it was 12 y o never involved in any trouble nicking ridiculous amount of money to spend on sweets.
 
I still think there is a huge difference between threatening a child with "I will cal for a policeman" and actually going to the police station and asking someone to have a chat with the girl.

[Rubicon]

That was a really excellent story I/O.  Great to hear a positive story about Russian policemen because it's true that the media prefers to focus on the negative and sometimes we all as humans become cynical as well.

Your story reminded me of what happened to me as a boy.  I fell out of a slowly moving car my mother was driving when I fell asleep in the back seat without my seat belt on.  I awoke to some policemen bent over looking at me and my mother frantic.

The police treated me and my mother with respect and we were on our way after they determined there was nothing wrong with me.  (okay I can hear the jokes coming now)

Ranetka maybe you could print I/O's story and show it to your friend.  It seems that she just does not know how to handle her child and needs some help with her.  I don't know if she belongs to a Church or some other civic organization where perhaps somebody could help her.  As GQ says it is very important to get down to the level of the child and not to make them feel threatened but to show them kindness and empathy.  Like you I just cannot imagine calling the police over such a trifle.  Your friend is showing signs of being stressed out.  I don't know what the answer is but I hope you can help her to find it.

[Ranetka]

Thanks for the suggestion. This is not a close friend plus being childless myself I do not feel it's my place to give advise about parenting.