If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[Rubicon]

This was happening before this government in Ukraine as well.  However, lawlessness and totalitarianism are distinct.  People can leave the country, and access to information is not controlled.  People can demonstrate.  They are free to express their opinions and criticize the government.

They can only leave the country if they are WEALTHY, or get married to a wealthy westerner, which of course makes their motivation extremely suspect.  They can demonstrate??  Really??  Have you seen the barricades which have been built where the Orange Revolution took place??  Fat chance of that demonstration happening??  They are free to express and criticize the government??  Assuming that their job position is low paying and extremely unimportant, I'm sure that's true.  If however they are a TV journalist or a professor at a University, they will probably soon be unemployed. 

[Rubicon]

The present government is certainly giving a fair impression of totalitarianism as the way forward.  The lawbreaking of the lawmakers is breathtaking.  People will die with greatly reduced life quality as the result.
 
http://foreignnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/breathaking-arrogance-of-yanukovych-and.html
 
Rubicon, check Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.  An extremely pleasant town to waste time and money in, with the cutest of airports to hang in.   

Will do thou great ancient Roman relic nearby dweller upon!!  Seriously though, thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely check it out.

[Boethius]

Demonstrations occur in Kyiv, Rubicon.  In fact, there was a huge protest yesterday on pension reform.   

Millions of Ukrainians work illegally throughout the EU, and millions more have emigrated to Russia.

Journalists in Ukraine do, in fact, routinely criticize the government, and the comments sections in Ukrainian newspapers are full of critical comments.

If the country were as tightly controlled as you assert, mies' original post would never have occurred.

The issues and malaise are related to economic conditions, high level corruption, and entitlements, in all respects, of the elite.  This is because the noose is really tightening.  They can no longer steal Russian gas, so an important source of revenue has been lost.  They can no longer steal government funds with impunity.  And most importantly, they can no longer move money abroad, and, if they do, they are pursued.  So, all their money is locked in the country.  That is why real estate is still disproportionately expensive, and why you see a lot of conspicuous consumption, and why they are even more brazen than in the past.

[Rubicon]

Demonstrations occur in Kyiv, Rubicon.  In fact, there was a huge protest yesterday on pension reform.   

Millions of Ukrainians work illegally throughout the EU, and millions more have emigrated to Russia.

Journalists in Ukraine do, in fact, routinely criticize the government, and the comments sections in Ukrainian newspapers are full of critical comments.

If the country were as tightly controlled as you assert, mies' original post would never have occurred.

The issues and malaise are related to economic conditions, high level corruption, and entitlements, in all respects, of the elite.  This is because the noose is really tightening.  They can no longer steal Russian gas, so an important source of revenue has been lost.  They can no longer steal government funds with impunity.  And most importantly, they can no longer move money abroad, and, if they do, they are pursued.  So, all their money is locked in the country.  That is why real estate is still disproportionately expensive, and why you see a lot of conspicuous consumption, and why they are even more brazen than in the past.

Perhaps it's not a totally totalitarian country, but it's screwed up enough from top down that I find it very aggravating and depressing.  This video has really upset me, I just cannot stomach the fact that this young woman was severely harassed and then even beaten; yet supposedly nobody can really do anything about it.  If it had happened here, in the time that you ladies and others were discussing why nothing could be done about, if the police had not rounded up the scoundrel, a possie of myself and 9 other friends armed to the teeth could have easily rounded him up and given him a good beatdown, allegedly.

The video and the whole thought of it and they way people there just put up with it has really struck a nerve for me.  I just don't think I want anything to do with a society like that anymore.  It's too hard to believe that you can find the needle in the haystack when this lack of morality is the normal way that men and women do business over there.  I don't even see Ukrainian students rising up like they did in Egypt, I just see a bunch of apathetic negative people who are destined to repeat what they are doing over and over without any real actions for change.  As a boy I was raised to be very optimistic and I excelled at sports and I believed I could accomplish almost anything I set my heart and mind to.  Military adventures only broadened my optimism and enthusiasm for my country and for life in general.  I don't see much real optimism over there, just apathy and resignation to a futile future.  Probably if I spoke Ukrainian and/or Russian fluently and had family there I would feel otherwise. 

[Rubicon]

The present government is certainly giving a fair impression of totalitarianism as the way forward.  The lawbreaking of the lawmakers is breathtaking.  People will die with greatly reduced life quality as the result.
 
http://foreignnotes.blogspot.com/2011/07/breathaking-arrogance-of-yanukovych-and.html
 
Rubicon, check Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania.  An extremely pleasant town to waste time and money in, with the cutest of airports to hang in.   

I took a quick look at Lithuania on Wikipedia and it re-confimed my previous choices.  Lithuania is out of the mix, at least at first because I am Protestant by religion.  Latvia has the largest protestant group, followed by Estonia.  So my next target city is going to be Riga and perhaps another city in Latvia, followed by a visit to Talin Estonia and probably some much smaller cities there as well.

[Kuna]

I took a quick look at Lithuania on Wikipedia and it re-confimed my previous choices.  Lithuania is out of the mix, at least at first because I am Protestant by religion.  Latvia has the largest protestant group, followed by Estonia.  So my next target city is going to be Riga and perhaps another city in Latvia, followed by a visit to Talin Estonia and probably some much smaller cities there as well.

Wasting your time...  the days of Latvian women seeking foreigners for marriage is over.  You MAY find one in 10,000 considering it - but the level of suspicion of foreigners hangs in the air.

If you're going there I'd highly recommend spending half a day in the war museum - chilling, but fascinating.

Also,  if you're going there try to avoid the hoards of drunk Pom's in Old Riga, especially when they are moving from one strip club to the other...  and try to eat in the restaurants with signs on the doors that say, "No Stag Parties".

Beautiful city - but stuffed by the English.

PM me for more info.

[ML]

I took a quick look at Lithuania on Wikipedia and it re-confimed my previous choices.  Lithuania is out of the mix, at least at first because I am Protestant by religion.  Latvia has the largest protestant group, followed by Estonia.  So my next target city is going to be Riga and perhaps another city in Latvia, followed by a visit to Talin Estonia and probably some much smaller cities there as well.

Agree with Kuna somewhat.  The women in the Baltic countries can travel freely to Western Europe.  They are not nearly as interested in western men as are the women in Russian and Ukraine.

Plus, regardless of their interest in WM or their ability to travel outside their country; the Baltic women (and probably men also) are not as warm and cuddly as the Russians and Ukrainians.  They are much more reserved and reticent in giving affection. 

Yes, this  is a generality, but that means it will be that much harder for you to find the exceptions.

[ECOCKS]

I agree with Kuna that your trip may not be as effective as you think. While some of your logic is sound there are other factors at play. It strikes me as you somehow think this will give you a "shortcut" of some sort which will save you having to winnow out "evil"-minded gals who are only interested in your wallet or passport.

The exception would be unless you're going in-country for a much longer period of time, a year or more for instance. Then you'll have a chance to search through the population a bit and throw out the hookers, party girls and casual daters who have no intention of leaving Mama and their families. Do you have the resources (time, money, etc.) for this process?

Russia, Ukraine, even Belarus, still have a framework (the agencies) where women who are [truly] willing to look abroad for relationships may "advertise" their intention of leaving the country for the right man. Your odds are no better than hopping a plane to Hamburg or Milan after a time period spent perusing a few dating/relationship sites in other countries.

It's your search but I haven't heard anyone in years who believes that the Baltic States are anything more than party cities. With their EU status they enjoy travel benefits and those that wanted to find WM have largely done so. The remainder who might be willing will have to be found and you have to look at the time you have to do this.

Best of Luck.

It still boils down to you finding a woman who ignites your passions, makes you comfortable and is sincere. Whether you're in Latvia or Ukraine, the same process still has to take place.

[BC]

Rubicon,

If this video bothered you so much, I agree, you should seek elsewhere..

Although a bit taken a bit aback after watching episodes of COPS, it does not deter me from visiting my birthplace..

I accept after living 49 of my 51 years overseas that there is no place on earth that is perfect. I firmly believe it is up to the individual to make the best out of life and not some government.

Candidly, IMHO you should stay home instead and dig in your back yard.

The closest I have found to Utopia as far as women are concerned is southern Spain.. Especially Jerez / Cadiz area.  The black hair, grey eyed women are especially enchanting.

[ECOCKS]

"Cops" has nothing to do with this video. There was a security tape video show that had much more similar situations BUT none of those involved police refusing to respond, political figures acting violently with impunity or the sense of arrogant entitlement which goes with "position".

You could even say that Cops would provide at least a partial answer to some of the crap we see in the FSU system everyday.

It's worth remembering that the U.S. has a population of about 7-8 times that of Ukraine and a free press which reports FAR, FAR more crime, political and economic news that anywhere in the FSU from multiple sources. Ask yourself honestly how many times this happened around Ukraine in the last month or so that WAS NOT reported due to the threats against the press or militsia looking the other way and not even responding.

Certainly, America has a problem with parts of our political structure and occasionally there are instances of physical violence thrown into the mix. The Kennedy involvement in a girl's death, Darryl Strawberry, Lindsay Lohan, occasional legislators, numerous NFL, MLB and NBA players behaviors see some favoritism but are still prosecuted and journalists face no threats for writing the stories. Still, this is systemic in the FSU and nothing like the West.

The security tapes of some beating sicken me but the Ukrainian video is representative of common, every day occurrences that all Ukrainians and most foreign residents acknowledge as the "norm" in their lives.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon,

If this video bothered you so much, I agree, you should seek elsewhere..

Although a bit taken a bit aback after watching episodes of COPS, it does not deter me from visiting my birthplace..

I accept after living 49 of my 51 years overseas that there is no place on earth that is perfect. I firmly believe it is up to the individual to make the best out of life and not some government.

Candidly, IMHO you should stay home instead and dig in your back yard.

The closest I have found to Utopia as far as women are concerned is southern Spain.. Especially Jerez / Cadiz area.  The black hair, grey eyed women are especially enchanting.

Then Southern Spain it is!!  I love olive skinned women, and I speak conversational Spanish, at least enough to get by.  I have enough funds to pack up and go for three months at a time.  I also love Spanish food and hospitality.  Sounds like close enough to Utopia for me to want to check it out...

[Rubicon]

"Cops" has nothing to do with this video. There was a security tape video show that had much more similar situations BUT none of those involved police refusing to respond, political figures acting violently with impunity or the sense of arrogant entitlement which goes with "position".

Exactly!!  If a political figure in the West tried this crap they would be immediately unemployed and in jail, with a longer prison sentence to come.  Somebody posted a bunch of links to videos of civilians getting harmed by criminals.  What does that have to do with the price of tea in China??

[ECOCKS]

Then Southern Spain it is!!  I love olive skinned women, and I speak conversational Spanish, at least enough to get by.  I have enough funds to pack up and go for three months at a time.  I also love Spanish food and hospitality.  Sounds like close enough to Utopia for me to want to check it out...

While some may scoff and you might even be fooling me with sarcasm, I think this plan has an equal chance of success and would be more enjoyable (vacation-type surroundings) than hanging out in Vilnius or Riga. Probably higher cost as well but, how can you set a price on finding the right woman?

Track down a couple of Spain-based dating sites and see how big the potential pond is before getting your gear together and setting out to toss in your hook.

[Boethius]

Update on the video situation.  The son was charged.  He can't destroy the video, as it hit the whole world, he filed a false statement (of assault against the girl, before the youtube video came to light), and, knowing the fate he would face with even one day in jail, he has now run away.

[ECOCKS]

Is there a link on that info?

[Boethius]

Here is the link, in a Russian language Ukrainian paper -

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/events/1237681-syn-nardepa-landika-obyavlen-v-rozysk

[Daveman]

Exactly!!  If a political figure in the West tried this crap they would be immediately unemployed and in jail, with a longer prison sentence to come.  Somebody posted a bunch of links to videos of civilians getting harmed by criminals.  What does that have to do with the price of tea in China??

It's related in that such things occur everywhere and with a similar apathetic attitude of "don't get involved". 


Rubicon, I don't recall ever seeing anyone post here who has been more, seemingly anyway, emotionally all over the place than you have been.  Now you seem to be swearing off Ukrainian women because of their government and corruption.  That's certainly up to you as FSUW really are not for everyone but it seems a strange non sequituresque conclusion. 


Considering Spain, would you be willing to convert to Catholicism to be with a good woman?  Generalization as usual, but there's an excellent chance that "good women" you find there will be Catholic.  Test the waters and see, but it's something to keep in mind from the outset.


 

[ECOCKS]

Sure, apathy happens but, as he says, ours generally involve criminals rather than arrogant politicians who are secure in the knowledge that even the police dare not touch them.

The girl being beaten next to the table of four young men, well I haven't seen or heard of anything like that in the US. The videos I HAVE seen, like the old man being car-jacked by multiple assailants and the passerbys watching the homeless guy get kicked by two or three young men look like disparity of force considerations to me. Fear of physical danger at the scene rather than fear of political power initiating reprisals. It makes for good movies and reading perhaps but do you really know, first-hand of any similar incident involving a politician doing something like this and being able to leave the country 4-5 days later? Journalists being threatened en masse if they publish stories? Really?

[mendeleyev]

Good link! Thank God the truth is coming out!

Had we been sitting in that restaurant on that day, my wife and/or my mother in law would have gotten involved, thereby getting me involved, in defense of the girl. However I know my limitations and would likely be laying in a hospital bed about now...if not already roaming the earth in my soul while waiting for the Orthodox "40 days" to pass.

[Daveman]

Sure, apathy happens but, as he says, ours generally involve criminals rather than arrogant politicians who are secure in the knowledge that even the police dare not touch them.

The girl being beaten next to the table of four young men, well I haven't seen or heard of anything like that in the US. The videos I HAVE seen, like the old man being car-jacked by multiple assailants and the passerbys watching the homeless guy get kicked by two or three young men look like disparity of force considerations to me. Fear of physical danger at the scene rather than fear of political power initiating reprisals. It makes for good movies and reading perhaps but do you really know, first-hand of any similar incident involving a politician doing something like this and being able to leave the country 4-5 days later? Journalists being threatened en masse if they publish stories? Really?

So, I take it then that you now must want to send your Ukrainian wife back because of the environment of corruption from which she comes, because she did not engage in revolution against her tyrannical government?   


That's what I was getting at. 

[JohnDearGreen]

A better question than, "How do you think her father reacted?" would be, "How do you think her MOTHER would have reacted?"

Wonder how is wife is reacting.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/1236481-smi-syn-regionala-landika-izbil-devushku-v-luganskom-restorane-u-postradavshej-sotryasenie-mozga

[BC]

Then Southern Spain it is!!  I love olive skinned women, and I speak conversational Spanish, at least enough to get by.  I have enough funds to pack up and go for three months at a time.  I also love Spanish food and hospitality.  Sounds like close enough to Utopia for me to want to check it out...

They are not all olive skinned.  Many with light complexion, but beauties all the same and warm/open personalities.

Best time is when there is the festival in Jerez that lasts a couple weeks and is a lot of fun.  Summer also great but will be hot, beach the morning, sleep all day and get out around 10 till wee hours of the morning.  Great food especially seafood.  Plenty to do and see.

Plan ahead, travel light and you can get some really cheap flights with ryanair to many places in EU.  http://www.ryanair.com/en/cheap-flight-destinations

Enjoy.

[tfcrew]

Apology if this has been mentioned...
What amazes me, is how nonchalant are people in the booth across.
The girls in the booth behind eventually get up and leave [one w/her butt hanging out]...
Agree that all things considered, this could happen anywhere.

[Rubicon]

Good link! Thank God the truth is coming out!

Had we been sitting in that restaurant on that day, my wife and/or my mother in law would have gotten involved, thereby getting me involved, in defense of the girl. However I know my limitations and would likely be laying in a hospital bed about now...if not already roaming the earth in my soul while waiting for the Orthodox "40 days" to pass.

Mendy,

I am proud of you and I admire you very much that you would have gotten involved.  It is the only moral and proper thing to do in a situation like that, IMO.  As Ed said one solution may have been to stand between the girl and the attacker, and if you were well dressed or in a group there would be good chances that he might back down.  But the really important thing is that people in the area need to be more willing to do SOMETHING if they ever want the situation of abusive politicians and others who do not fear any consequences to change.  I hope that you will consider to write about this story and its aftermath in your online newspaper; hopefully both in Russian and English.  I would be very happy to see it there.  Death is only the beginning.  If we cannot live our lives at least somewhat morally on this earth, how can we expect to reach a higher plateau on the next??

[Rubicon]

Wasting your time...  the days of Latvian women seeking foreigners for marriage is over.  You MAY find one in 10,000 considering it - but the level of suspicion of foreigners hangs in the air.

If you're going there I'd highly recommend spending half a day in the war museum - chilling, but fascinating.

Also,  if you're going there try to avoid the hoards of drunk Pom's in Old Riga, especially when they are moving from one strip club to the other...  and try to eat in the restaurants with signs on the doors that say, "No Stag Parties".

Beautiful city - but stuffed by the English.

PM me for more info.

Hi Kuna,

If I go to Latvia and Estonia I won't be hanging out in the major cities for more then a day or two and just to do the tourist thing there.  I've heard of the British stag parties and that the locals are sick of that situation.  One word out of my mouth and they'll know I am a Yank and I look more German anyways.  No, my plan would be to take a three month extended holiday and to visit as many small cities as possible and to attend a few evangelical Lutheran church services.  I've never been really into big city party type girls anyways and prefer women with more traditional small town/country values.  Down to earth types.  We like to say the salt of the earth.  The kind of woman who would love you truly with her whole heart and soul and follow you to the ends of the earth if you asked her to.