Re: Tragedy in Norway

[ECOCKS]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Terrorism is a fact of life we all live with now. Domestic, foreign, adopted, it's a changed world.

Obviously, at least one of your fellow countrymen believed your immigration is causing problems in your society. He's not alone, bet on it. Or perhaps you're the type who prefers to believe that he is the only insane person in your society? Could you be that naive? 

Oh, take you racial purity insinuation and place it where the sun doesn't shine. Deflection and projecting of ancillary issues on others is a poor tactic.

"Things like this" yeah, the worst terroist incident since the Madrid bombings. The thing we're commenting on, THAT "INCIDENT".

You're right, our government has attempted to create "gun-free zones" at government buildings, school and pot offices, it doesn't work. It doesn't work at privately-owned malls either.

That's okay, we think your gun laws are a joke too. Tit for tat and all that.

I will bet that the police will be changing procedures in the not-too-distant future. Slow changes and all that. Or aye YOU the type of person who believes that now that this guy is arrested it will never happen again?

I read English reports not "dramatizations" because they're in English. If I read Norwegian I would obviously read them in Norwegian. Please send corrections to CNN. Regardless, 60 minutes is still unacceptable, so we disagree.

Your country is being portrayed by CNN, BBC, AP and others as having "lost your innocence". Take it up with them rather than the individual tens of millions reading their reports and reaching conclusions with the information available to them.

I don't care whether you are "convinced" or not. There are always some who refuse to listen. In situations where armed citizens are present, these situations are stopped more quickly and you remain unable to substantiate your claim that innocent bystanders are killed/injured.

Instead, I will be one of those who, everytime an event like this occurs, will be offering up a viable alternative which respects freedom and requires accountability. It might be interesting to see whether the parents of those killed or the off-duty policeman's view of not being allowed/required to carry his firearm has been modified in any way. Apparently, the shooter wasn't responding to harsh language or negotiation as an intervention technique.

If Norway (and other countries) want to give up and allow these events to take their toll on their citizens. then that is certainly their decision. Ironically, it probably won't be the right that places security forces and cameras on every street corner to monitor behavior, it's the leftist countries trying to keep a lid on the growing violence and criminal activity who are going this route.

Eventually, you'll learn or, you won't.

[Gator]

I wrote near the beginning of this thread, "Within the US the white middle class is the most likely source of terrorist acts."
 
 

Did you read this story? He IS your neighbor. I think you guys might be a bit more in fear of this than you were three days ago.

And Ed,  you are my neighbor in a manner of speaking.  I am not convinced that people of your ilk are safe.  I know of no one who buys a vest to hold his tactical gear,  dons a military helmet, and brandishes a weapon not designed for accurate target shooting or eliminating snakes and rodents.  Lord only knows what you are not telling us.  I hope that you do not go beyond the pale.

[ECOCKS]

I wrote near the beginning of this thread, "Within the US the white middle class is the most likely source of terrorist acts."
 
 
And Ed,  you are my neighbor in a manner of speaking.  I am not convinced that people of your ilk are safe.  I know of no one who buys a vest to hold his tactical gear,  dons a military helmet, and brandishes a weapon not designed for accurate target shooting or eliminating snakes and rodents.  Lord only knows what you are not telling us.  I hope that you do not go beyond the pale.

No worries Gator, if I lived next to you, I'd just electrify the fence and keep the guard dogs out on the grounds. It would be handy to know there were diversionary targets around though so you probably would offer some value to the community.

[Gator]

No worries Gator, if I lived next to you, I'd just electrify the fence and keep the guard dogs out on the grounds. It would be handy to know there were diversionary targets around though so you probably would offer some value to the community.

Very prudent.  The FBI watches us people on Medicare like a hawk.
 
Don't show your guard dogs the photos that Jack was talkng about, the ones that scared his dogs.

[Ade]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Terrorism is a fact of life we all live with now. Domestic, foreign, adopted, it's a changed world.

Obviously, at least one of your fellow countrymen believed your immigration is causing problems in your society. He's not alone, bet on it. Or perhaps you're the type who prefers to believe that he is the only insane person in your society? Could you be that naive? 

Of course he isn't. But this was a "perfect storm" of circumstances that could have happened anywhere. Like your 9/11, at the time, unavoidable. It's even possible that it will inspire other nuts to come out of the wood work and attempt copy-cat killings. Good thing guns are more heavily controlled here so impulse gun buying and killing won't be a problem.

And yes, I think things will change. I imagine, next year, it's a good possibility that the guard will be armed and there may now be armed police present at all major events.

But as Gator points out, it's people like you and Anders that I'm most worried about; middle class, seemingly respectable gun nuts with paranoid tendencies and with very strong political/religious views who seem to be able to slip under the radar of law enforcement until the time comes when you pop and go postal. Why on earth would I want guns in more hands like yours? The thought is frightening enough for me to want to get a gun. 

[BC]

I remember living in Germany when all that Baader Meinhof gang was loose.  My father said that we were not going to change our lives in any way because of these folks as that was their intent in the first place.  Many US folks back then decided to try and move back to on base housing.  We did not.  We did not buy guns or make a bunker either.

More recently, my son in law who runs a vacation complex in Germany told me about how Americans arrive in their busses.. with GI's in full field gear and guns with each busload of families and kids.  Based on that alone, the terrorists won.. just think what all these young minds absorbed by this experience.  A fundamental part of their formative life changed - for the worse.

I can imagine them 'gearing up' when older to quell their insecurity.

[Ade]

I remember living in Germany when all that Baader Meinhof gang was loose.  My father said that we were not going to change our lives in any way because of these folks as that was their intent in the first place.  Many US folks back then decided to try and move back to on base housing.  We did not.  We did not buy guns or make a bunker either.

More recently, my son in law who runs a vacation complex in Germany told me about how Americans arrive in their busses.. with GI's in full field gear and guns with each busload of families and kids.  Based on that alone, the terrorists won.. just think what all these young minds absorbed by this experience.  A fundamental part of their formative life changed - for the worse.

I can imagine them 'gearing up' when older to quell their insecurity.

Exactly. Living a life of fear and preparing for the day when some extremist may come along and try to kill you is no life I want to live. I've been accused of being a pessimist here but I refuse to live with this incredibly negative, and in its way, extremist, mindset. Paranoia and fear breeds more paranoia and fear which inevitably leads to bigotry, discrimination and violence.

There will always be extremists that will try to take advantage of more civilised cultures and that's the price we have to pay for having a more peaceful, fulfilling and positive quality of life. It's not a coincidence that Norway is way up there in the worldwide QoL indexes.

[SteveOR]

 
My condolences to our Norwegian friends.  A truly horrific act by an obviously unbalanced individual.
 
Fortunately most people in the world are good, ordinary and even courageous folks.  Here's an example of one man who came to the aid of the kids at the camp.  My hat's off to this hero:
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43880728/ns/world_news-europe/
 
 

[CanadaMan]

Quote from: CanadaMan on 23 July 2011, 13:47:56Ed can you explain why you have a photo of an armed military couple (machine guns) standing in front of a suburban house as your RWD member photo?

Yeah, read the post just above yours. It should be self-evident.

Ed you still haven't explained why you chose to use your photo.
I read your post above mine and it wasn't self-evident.

You simply said  "This is the world we live in now though, get used to it.
I expect much, much worse in the not-too-distant future."

Your photo has been in use long before the Norway tragedy a few days ago.

There are millions and millions of other possible photos/images etc. that you could have used, kittens, puppies, flowers, trees, mountains, loved one, stamps, tea cup, window, envelope, cereal box, peaCOCK, camera, card, shoes, car, etc. (you get the picture, I hope).

Of all the millions of possibilities why did you choose an armed couple in front of a house?

[tfcrew]

 

Don't show your guard dogs the photos that Jack was talking about, the ones that scared his dogs.
 

 
 
 
 

[SMS60]

Yes, he seems to be an ultra right wing Conservative Christian. Seems like insanity is not particular about people's faith.

Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Please educate yourself before you label people with knee jerk reactions.

Conservative Christians are deeply offended.

[BC]

Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Please educate yourself before you label people with knee jerk reactions.

Conservative Christians are deeply offended.

Anders Behring Breivik Norwegian pronunciation: ['andəʂ 'beːriŋ 'bręɪviːk] (born 13 February 1979[1]) is a Norwegian citizen and the self-admitted[4] perpetrator of the 2011 Norway attacks, in which he killed 76 people.[5][6] Police and local media reports describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, nationalist and right-wing extremist.[7] [8][9][10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Posted only as a reference and not to substantiate my personal views.

[SMS60]

Of course, this is what the media reports. But if you read all the accounts of his life it does not show he was a practicing Christian.

In the Wikipedia info you find the answer about 3 paragraphs from the very end. Right above the reference notes. Oh Roger was quick to label and the media took off running.

I dont think this nut case was a practicing Christian and should not be labeled as such. But it sounds good.

Deputy police chief Roger Andresen initially told reporters that information on Breivik's websites was "so to speak, Christian fundamentalist"^{[6] [7][8][9]}Subsequently, others have disputed Andresen's characterization of Breivik as a Christian fundamentalist.^[10] Rev. Olav Fykse Tveit, head of the World Council of Churches and himself Norwegian, accused Breivik of blasphemy for citing Christianity as a justification in his murderous attack.^[11]

[Ade]

Of course, this is what the media reports. But if you read all the accounts of his life it does not show he was a practicing Christian.

In the Wikipedia info you find the answer about 3 paragraphs from the very end. Right above the reference notes. Oh Roger was quick to label and the media took off running.

I dont think this nut case was a practicing Christian and should not be labeled as such. But it sounds good.

Deputy police chief Roger Andresen initially told reporters that information on Breivik's websites was "so to speak, Christian fundamentalist"^{[6] [7][8][9]}Subsequently, others have disputed Andresen's characterization of Breivik as a Christian fundamentalist.^[10] Rev. Olav Fykse Tveit, head of the World Council of Churches and himself Norwegian, accused Breivik of blasphemy for citing Christianity as a justification in his murderous attack.^[11]

Nevertheless, AFAIK he claims to be a Christian much like many others. That he is an extremist fundamentalist should differentiate him enough from the run of the mill Christian that you shouldn't feel too offended at the possibility of being mistaken for him or for having his beliefs. Or do you also claim to be some sort of fundamentalist nut too? If so, what's the problem exactly?

[Muzh]

Let me understand this, the Buffalo gynecologist that was killed by a fundamentalist anti-abortionist and all the other "practicing" christians that came to his defense were not really practicing christians. It was just a label the liberal media gave them, right?
 
Please, let's not get into summoning google to find more examples.

[Voyager36]

Of course immigration is "controlled". It certainly isn't a matter of showing up at the border. But there will always be clashes of cultures when immigration of any size occurs. It happens everywhere and in every country to a certain extent. Integration will occur eventually, but it's a slow generations long process. Or are you the type that thinks we should all become isolationists? All locked up in our own "racially pure" countries stagnating? 

It's reported now that Norway will re-impose border controls.
 
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=130523
 
 

[Ade]

It's reported now that Norway will re-impose border controls.
 
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=130523

Entry to Norway via a Schengen country is not the same as immigration. I imagine reestablishing border control will mean passport/document checks for those entering via Schengen as well as non-Schengen countries.

Norway has always had relatively tough immigration policies, just not tough enough for the far right nationalists. But let's face it, any country that allows immigration at all is probably too lax as far as a lot of right wing isolationists are concerned..

[SMS60]

Let me understand this, the Buffalo gynecologist that was killed by a fundamentalist anti-abortionist and all the other "practicing" christians that came to his defense were not really practicing christians. It was just a label the liberal media gave them, right?
 
Please, let's not get into summoning google to find more examples.

You lost me.

[Gator]

SMS60,
 
Just because someone is a Christian does not mean they are immune from insanity.   Insanity trumps Christianity. 

[Vasilisa]

That's a terrible tragedy.
My condolences to the relatives of the victims.