With apologies to David Letterman

[chivo]

I'm sure there are other reasons you would be better off staying home and dating locally, but here are my top 10 reasons why you should think long and hard before you waste your time and money.
 
10) You're underfunded and/or you don’t have enough vacation/free time to invest in face to face situations - This is pretty simple, without a certain amount of disposable income you will not have the means to follow through with this journey.
 
Nothing guarantees success but you just have to see your lady in many different situations to know if you can live with her over the years.
 
9) The mystery of marrying a foreigner is gone - Meeting and marrying someone has lost whatever luster it originally had which wasn't much to begin with. Remember, most ladies in the FSU don't want to marry foreigners, unless of course you actually live in their city.
 
8,) You don't live there - See above. As obvious as it seems to be you live in another country. Long distance relationships rarely work in country much less outside of one.
 
7) You have no idea about the culture – Of course we’re all individuals but, if I've said it once I've said it a thousand times; the better you understand a culture, the better you'll understand the person. Trying to think as an American/Australian/Canadian/Italian, ect, and using that mindset to understand your FSU woman is a recipe for disaster.


6) You and she don't speak the same language – Communication is the key to any relationship. Yes she speaks English and you know how to say "пиво" but if you think that she'll be able to express anything deeper than the simplest level of her hopes and dreams you're kidding yourself. And I don't care how fluent you think she is.
 
Of course living in country will change that and her level of English, but we're talking years down the road.
 
5) You think they're easy - Because of the basic rule of supply and demand in the FSU, and the fact that most/all FSUW want to marry and have a family and children - you think they're desperate. And they might be easy to marry depending on their situation, but they won't be easy to deal with afterward if they don't really love you. And they probably don't at first given the dynamics of the relationship.
 
This also applies to their economic state. Remember most things that are available now weren't available even a few short years ago. Times/attitudes/living conditions are changing fast in Eastern Europe and they've also seen how the other half lives.
 
IOW, the playing field has changed. They have travelled more, have access to more information through internet availability, and are much more prepared and aware of things than even 5 years ago.
 
4) You think with the wrong head - Russia/Ukraine/FSU is one of the easiest places to date and/or sleep with women for a variety of reasons that even the most annoying caveman can  improve his social dating status. Do not confuse this with actual love and a lifetime of marital bliss.
 
3) You're way out of your league - While I personally believe a man can up his level of woman given some of his shortcomings, one needs to temper his ego knowing that she will be living in your country, and therefore will over time better understand her market value. Sorry, but it matters.
 
2) You try too hard to impress and/or you’re not yourself - If you come and start acting, dressing, living large, and all around behaving in a way that is not the real you, you’re headed for trouble. Be yourself, simple
 
1) You're a moron, lunatic, egomaniac, psycho, pervert, social misfit, control freak or any combination of - nuff said.

[ML]

2) You try too hard to impress and/or you’re not yourself - If you come and start acting, dressing, living large, and all around behaving in a way that is not the real you, you’re headed for trouble. Be yourself, simple

We read here often how we men are supposed to do this and that to attract the woman, adapt to her way of thinking, etc.

I think such advice and actions are pretty silly given that there are many more women looking than there are men looking.

Yes, I am kind and considerate, polite, reasonably well groomed, etc., but I just put myself out there as is.  If a given woman likes it, then OK; if not, then OK also.

Sure, there are always those who retort:  Well you haven't found one to marry you yet.  Very funny to me since getting a gal, whether FSU or not, to agree to marry is one of easiest things in the world to do.

So I agree with OP, although it might not be quite the same way he intends.
That is:  Be yourself and stop trying to impress the ladies.

[mendeleyev]

6) You and she don't speak the same language – Communication is the key to any relationship. Yes she speaks English and you know how to say "пиво" but if you think that she'll be able to express anything deeper than the simplest level of her hopes and dreams you're kidding yourself. And I don't care how fluent you think she is.
 
Of course living in country will change that and her level of English, but we're talking years down the road.

+10

I am not saying that communication is impossible but it requires investment and work and it is lunacy to think that because she "speaks" English that she is "fluent." (Same reason I have doubts regarding many in-country "translators.") True fluency at least in part includes the ability to understand a language so thoroughly that one can instinctively think in that language.

[BC]

True fluency at least in part includes the ability to understand a language so thoroughly that one can instinctively think in that language.

.. and even have dreams in that language.

As far as practical fluency tests go, the best is the telephone test.. to be able to call an unknown party on the phone with at least three goals.. something like call the Sberbank toll free number find out the address of the nearest branch, the requirements for opening an account and the current USD exchange rate and fees for changing $1525 USD.

[chivo]

So I agree with OP, although it might not be quite the same way he intends.
That is: Be yourself and stop trying to impress the ladies.

Be yourself is the way I intended it. Not sure how you can spin it any other way or understand it any differently.
 
Your post was "interesting". 
 
 
 

[chivo]

10

I am not saying that communication is impossible but it requires investment and work and it is lunacy to think that because she "speaks" English that she is "fluent." (Same reason I have doubts regarding many in-country "translators.") True fluency at least in part includes the ability to understand a language so thoroughly that one can instinctively think in that language.

It's funny how we hear a Russian speak English and almost automatically assume they're at a native level because they seem to handle social situations rather easily. Not to mention that some even have an ability to understand you at seemingly high level and even laugh at your jokes. Especially if someone is not in the habit of speaking English to foreigners and naturally talks to them like they would a native speaker.
 
It's not until you start to ask them some serious questions or talk about sensitive issues that you truly understand "their" level. I also understand this better as my Russian improves and I'm able to handle everyday situations much easier, yet can't even begin to truly express some deeper issues. As anyone who has ever tried learning another language, understanding what is being said comes much faster than the ability to express oneself at the same level.
 
This really hit home the other day while I was talking to a friend of mine who has spent some time in the USA. She speaks very good English IMO, even though we have never really talked about things below the surface.
 
It has only been recently that we've been talking at a more intimate level and I was a little surprised when I asked her a question a tad more difficult regarding her life and she told me (matter of factly as they're prone to do  ) " I don't speak English well enough to explain myself the way I want".
 
 

[mendeleyev]

Especially if someone is not in the habit of speaking English to foreigners and naturally talks to them like they would a native speaker.

Yes, Chivo. Truly important when a man is in-country to learn how to speak clearly, without slang, and use good grammar because what would be easily understood back home around the water cooler is often not understood in casual conversation with a non-native English speaker.

[chivo]

I'm sure there are other reasons you would be better off staying home and dating locally, but here are my top 10 reasons why you should think long and hard before you waste your time and money.

I was in a bit of a hurry as I wrote this so I might not have worded this exactly the way I should have, but basically some newbies have been floating around (and I'm sure many lurkers as well) so I thought I might give them pause before they actually jump in the water.
 
What I meant to say is like anything else that takes balls to do, make sure you not only understand what you're really getting yourself into, but why you're doing it.
 
And for anyone who has been there, done that to feel free to give their reasons why someone should think twice thrice before taking the plunge.   

[GQBlues]

....
It's not until you start to ask them some serious questions or talk about sensitive issues that you truly understand "their" level. I also understand this better as my Russian improves and I'm able to handle everyday situations much easier, yet can't even begin to truly express some deeper issues. As anyone who has ever tried learning another language, understanding what is being said comes much faster than the ability to express oneself at the same level.
 
This really hit home the other day while I was talking to a friend of mine who has spent some time in the USA. She speaks very good English IMO, even though we have never really talked about things below the surface. ....

Chivo-
 
I am swamped at the moment but I took the time to read your OP and wanted to give out major 'props', man. All of it...most especially the quote I used above.
 
At about the first year of my marriage, after an issue arose I resigned myself to things being the way they are however frustrating they appeared to me. I went upstairs to find wifey crying her heart out and I asked if she was alright. She basically said something to the effect...'what she told me during our discussion didn't came across to her, and likely to me, what she really wanted to convey'. She simply didn't know how to do so. She even went as far as using Prompt after our argument/discussion to see if it'll 'capture' the same expression as she intended. It failed.
 
Tells me she is so frustrated, not because of me or herself, but rather because she felt she couldn't 'fully' express what she really wanted to convey and she didn't want to leave this gap between us because she was concerned an unwarranted wedge could keep us apart when none exist. I was frustrated because a large part of me wish I knew her tongue as much as she can eventually be aware of mine.
 
Anyway...just wanted to stop by real quick to give you props for your post/s...

[Daveman]

Funny yet excellent thread... great stuff 

[chivo]

Anyway...just wanted to stop by real quick to give you props for your post/s...

Thanks for the "love", appreciate it.

[Misha]

IOW, the playing field has changed. They have travelled more, have access to more information through internet availability, and are much more prepared and aware of things than even 5 years ago.

Very good points and right on the money! However, with this point, I would say that it even muddies the water even more. They may travel, but that does not mean they are aware of what immigration to a new country truly entails and may have an unrealistic picture as to what to expect when living and working in a new country.


Reminds me of a joke (анекдот) that some friends of mine told who had immigrated twice: one to Israel and once to Canada:


A group in heaven decided that they wanted to go on a trip down to hell. They buy their cruise and head down to Lucifer's playground. They see beaches, they see people playing and having fun. Back in heaven, they decide to immigrate. So they fill out the paperwork and finally go down to their new afterlives. Once there, they are thrown into the fire and brimstone. They cry out: this isn't the hell that we saw. The Devil replies: that hell is for the tourists, this hell is for the permanent residents (substitute green card holders etc...)

[Gator]

Chivo,
 
I don't know any single man who has spent as much time in the FSU as you.   Plus you have a keen sense of observation.  Your advice, not just in this thread, is always valuable.
 

2) You try too hard to impress and/or you’re not yourself - If you come and start acting, dressing, living large, and all around behaving in a way that is not the real you, you’re headed for trouble. Be yourself, simple
 

Lily expressed this very clearly as advice from a RW to a Western man:
 

I wonder, why do you guys strive to please women? Be yourself and enjoy yourself... IMHO no need to please anyone, potential dates including. If women, or just any person, just cannot be happy themselves, no one can make them happy unless they want and do it themselves!

Her advice works well, unless the man just happens to be one of the following:
 

1) You're a moron, lunatic, egomaniac, psycho, pervert, social misfit, control freak or any combination of - nuff said.

 
 
Such flawed men almost never recognize it, much less admit it and improve.  Is there an Assholes Anonymous?  So their behavior will manifest itself eventually with a FSUW.  To the RW's benefit, I find many RW (in their 30s and 40s) to have more street smarts and a stronger sense of skepticism than AW.  Hopefully this will serve the RW well in avoiding relationships with such men.         

[Gator]

Very good points and right on the money! However, with this point, I would say that it even muddies the water even more. They may travel, but that does not mean they are aware of what immigration to a new country truly entails and may have an unrealistic picture as to what to expect when living and working in a new country.
 

Works the other way too.  Traveling with a RW does not mean you are aware of how life will be when the two of you set up house.
 
 

Reminds me of a joke (анекдот) that some friends of mine told who had immigrated twice: one to Israel and once to Canada:

Did your friends tour Canada before immigrating?        Tell them it could have been worse, they could have gone to America.   

[Misha]

Works the other way too.  Traveling with a RW does not mean you are aware of how life will be when the two of you set up house.

Exactly! It is when the usual drudgery of daily life sets in, that you know you can truly be a couple IMHO.
 

Did your friends tour Canada before immigrating?        Tell them it could have been worse, they could have gone to America.   

LOL! The one who told the joke had visited family briefly in Canada.

[ML]

A group in heaven decided that they wanted to go on a trip down to hell. They buy their cruise and head down to Lucifer's playground. They see beaches, they see people playing and having fun. Back in heaven, they decide to immigrate. So they fill out the paperwork and finally go down to their new afterlives. Once there, they are thrown into the fire and brimstone. They cry out: this isn't the hell that we saw. The Devil replies: that hell is for the tourists, this hell is for the permanent residents (substitute green card holders etc...)

Actually there was more to the story.  They saw a man sitting in nice bar with bottle of cold beer and beautiful blonde woman on his lap.  Looked really great. 

Then they noticed and remarked to the man . . . there is no hole in the beer bottle.

He said:  And not in her either.

[chivo]

However, with this point, I would say that it even muddies the water even more. They may travel, but that does not mean they are aware of what immigration to a new country truly entails and may have an unrealistic picture as to what to expect when living and working in a new country.

Misha I agree. My point wasn't that they have a better understanding of what it's like to immigrate to another country, but that they have a better understanding of other cultures. That 5 years ago many Russians had never been outside the country accept for Turkey and Egypt and the majority did not have access to the internet.

I'll take something as simple as fashion for instance. 5 years ago you would have been hard pressed to find a RM wearing shorts and sandals in public. Even though it has consistently become more prevalent over the years, this summer I was amazed at the amount of RM in shorts and sandals walking around the city. Just think back 10 years as you well know, and as anyone who had been to Russia/Ukraine around then will tell you black was by far the color of choice for RM and you would have been laughed out of town wearing shorts in public or at least stared at as being from another planet.

I believe this has to do in large part to it (wearing shorts in this case) being widely accepted in Europe and their exposure to European counties. Not to mention the fact that many have been to the USA also with Miami, Los Angeles, and New York City being by far the most popular destinations. Add the internet explosion to the equation and you can see how the attitude of the people has changed dramatically. And it continues to change at a much faster pace than already established countries obviously.
 
Any man headed here needs to really understand this and keep pace with the changes especially as it concerns their shift in mentality. What was happening and considered normal or traditional even last year can be old hat now. 

When I talk to people here, mostly RW, about their desire to possibly live in another country, they are well aware of the differences in visiting another country and actually moving there permanently. Most who want to move to another country only mention it as a temporary situation just to understand it better. Not as a permanent situation.
 
Remember, Moscow offers as much opportunity to the average Russian throughout the country now than just about any other place I can think of.

[chivo]

Chivo,

I don't know any single man who has spent as much time in the FSU as you. Plus you have a keen sense of observation. Your advice, not just in this thread, is always valuable.

Praise indeed. Gator you have always been a class act on this forum and you have taught me some invaluable lessons as well with your behavior under certain situations. It's one of the reasons I stick around. There's much to learn away from the Russian thing on a forum like this about oneself when you're dealing with another you don't exactly see eye to eye with, or especially when you've put your proverbial foot in your mouth.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but I like to keep my internet persona as real or as close to my real life persona as possible. What you see is what you get.

Such flawed men almost never recognize it, much less admit it and improve. Is there an Assholes Anonymous? So their behavior will manifest itself eventually with a FSUW. To the RW's benefit, I find many RW (in their 30s and 40s) to have more street smarts and a stronger sense of skepticism than AW. Hopefully this will serve the RW well in avoiding relationships with such men.

Yes it was said partly tongue in cheek, but as anyone who has met more than a few of these guys during their travels will attest, they seem to be in a larger percentile than expected. It also goes to my reasons #2, 3, & 5.

And the Russians always wonder why I don't have any American friends here .

[vwrw]

First of all, chivo thanks for sharing  your thoughts with us. Even though my thinking does not coincide with yours on some points, I still appreciate your effort .

Your top 10 reasons are valid mostly for people with your values and definition of success. For example among us are people who would not consider their attempt to date abroad as a waste of time and money  even if the attempt did not result in marriage; this is still an experience that you cannot get by staying home and dating locally.

In regard to item 10 on your list…I hate to resort to anecdotes to show that people with very limited funds and time can also succeed in finding their halves in FSU, so I am going to generalize my observations. There are males in West and females in East who can and are willing to put up with defects of character in their partners, differences of opinion, and weird habits. Their ability to adjust and become happy with whatever they get (as far as she is relative thin  and he wants her to live with him) amazes me. Have those people listened to your #10, they still would be lonely because those  males in West could not find  relative thin  females willing to cohabite with them and those females could not find males  in East. Your reason 10 is not a reason for them.

Chivo “Remember, most ladies in the FSU don't want to marry foreigners, unless of course you actually live in their city.”

Most ladies in the FSU have never thought about marring foreigners . Not thinking is not the same as not wanting to marry foreigners. My belief (almost unfounded)  is that most ladies in the FSU would not mind to marry male citizens of other counties if they took the steps to communicate with them or had a chance of experiencing American males’ treatment of their women.

In regard to item 6 on your list. Communication is important but it is just a key to any relationship, not the only key. Moreover, the biggest channel of information transmittal is nonverbal.  For example, to many (most?) people, a hug for support or comforting means more than words or seeing that their partners DO something to show their care and love means more than verbal expressions of the feelings. Besides, not all people need deep self-disclosure. These people can be happy, communicating in broken English all their life together. They even develop their own language.

In regard to item 5 on your list. Why “they are not easy” should be a reason not to go? I think if guys were looking for easiness, they would choose doing nothing, being coach potatoes that play video game all day long with breaks to visit porn sites.

In regard to item 4 on your list. What people see as marital bliss varies. For some, the fact that their wives make them think with the wrong head is all they need and want, why shouldn’t they “try it on”? My six sense tells me they would NOT be the ones that will consider their trip waste of time and money afterwards. IF you do not believe me, just ask Pike, Albert or his other embodiments . I do not remember him complaining about his trip being a waste of time and money. 

In regard to item 3 on your list. Reassessment of your market value does not necessarily lead to abandoning your partner. People tend to develop emotional attachments to their near and dear people that bound them to their significant others even if the substitution is easily available. Moreover, many people fear changes and often prefer what they have over what they might have. Yet even more significant... if partner’s belonging to certain league is not a dominate need/desire, then whether relationship lasts depends more on mutual desires and need satisfaction than on the leagues to which the partners belong.

There are more points I cannot agree with, but by for now I am bored with countering.

[noelscot]

I'm sure there are other reasons you would be better off staying home and dating locally, but here are my top 10 reasons why you should think long and hard before you waste your time and money.

This post is pure gold.


In the spirit of David Letterman (being funny and all), I propose this as the number 1 reason a guy should stay at home and look for women:


There are already foreign women in your country looking to get a green card! lol.

[Kineo]

There are already foreign women in your country looking to get a green card!

This is very funny and definately in the spirit of David!
 
 

[Kineo]

 
Great post!
 
This post reiterates many things that I have read here many times but it seems many people seem just not quite get.
 

9) The mystery of marrying a foreigner is gone - Meeting and marrying someone has lost whatever luster it originally had which wasn't much to begin with. Remember, most ladies in the FSU don't want to marry foreigners, unless of course you actually live in their city.

Maybe my thoughts on this one are a little different though. I think if one is marrying a woman for the mystery of being foreign they maybe asking for disappointment. I think the mystery of being foreign will tend to disappear over time. I feel a lot of that has already disappeared for me. But at the same time the woman I have found has become more and more special to me. The thing that probably reminds us the most that this relationship is we a foreign woman is the issue of language. This leads to the next subject.
 
The challenges surrounding language barrier are huge. And the implications should not be underestimated. As several have already told their stories on this thread. I think the first and most important step in this is both party recognising this barrier. Then gain an understanding that it will take a lot of patience and determination to bridge this gap. This is part of why I am trying to learn her language as well as her learning mine.
 

[chivo]

First of all, chivo thanks for sharing  your thoughts with us.

You're welcome.
 

Even though my thinking does not coincide with yours on some points, I still appreciate your effort.

No surprise here either.

Your top 10 reasons are valid mostly for people with your values and definition of success. For example among us are people who would not consider their attempt to date abroad as a waste of time and money  even if the attempt did not result in marriage; this is stilgl an experience that you cannot get by staying home and dating locally.

You mean sex tourists. Agree, they have no problem experiencing something they aren't getting at home, which is SEX!! Not exactly to my point about the failure to seek and obtain a wife which is the bottom line here

In regard to item 10 on your list…I hate to resort to anecdotes to show that people with very limited funds and time can also succeed in finding their halves in FSU, so I am going to generalize my observations. There are males in West and females in East who can and are willing to put up with defects of character in their partners, differences of opinion, and weird habits. Their ability to adjust and become happy with whatever they get (as far as she is relative thin  and he wants her to live with him) amazes me. Have those people listened to your #10, they still would be lonely because those  males in West could not find  relative thin  females willing to cohabite with them and those females could not find males  in East. Your reason 10 is not a reason for them.

There are always exceptions to any rule, but the people you talk about are clearly the exceptions and are much in the minority.
 
If you can't afford multiple trips with increased face time together your probability for success will decrease exponentially. And that's my point.
 

and Chivo “Remember, most ladies in the FSU don't want to marry foreigners, unless of course you actually live in their city.”

Most ladies in the FSU have never thought about marring foreigners . Not thinking is not the same as not wanting to marry foreigners. My belief (almost unfounded)  is that most ladies in the FSU would not mind to marry male citizens of other counties if they took the steps to communicate with them or had a chance of experiencing American males’ treatment of their women.

I also mentioned, unlike even a few years ago, many RW have had the chance to travel abroad to experience other cultures and see first hand what you talk about.
 
Many of the RW I talk to today would consider a foreigner, and it my shock some people, but about 50% of them would even consider a black man if he treated them they way they wanted to be treated.

But, and it's a big but (no pun intended ) if they lived in their city. Most don't want to move to another country to find out, but yes some would, desperate ones for sure. They have seen how the other side lives and the "mystique" has lost some of its luster.

Many RW also talk about how different their culture is and are not sure if they could/would want to bridge that gap.

In regard to item 6 on your list. Communication is important but it is just a key to any relationship, not the only key. Moreover, the biggest channel of information transmittal is nonverbal.  For example, to many (most?) people, a hug for support or comforting means more than words or seeing that their partners DO something to show their care and love means more than verbal expressions of the feelings. Besides, not all people need deep self-disclosure. These people can be happy, communicating in broken English all their life together. They even develop their own language.

You're really reaching here.

And yes not all people need deep self disclosure (mainly men  ), but most women do. At least the ability to express themselves, their wants and needs, to deepen the bond with their spouse. As a woman you should know this.

Sure some will settle for less. I mean someone around is better than no one around, yes? Some would argue that it isn't.
 

In regard to item 5 on your list. Why “they are not easy” should be a reason not to go? I think if guys were looking for easiness, they would choose doing nothing, being coach potatoes that play video game all day long with breaks to visit porn sites.

Again you missed my point.
 
My point is that some men will decide to give Russia/Ukraine a try because the women are easier to date here than in their countries, and they most certainly are. This does not mean they're easier to marry and take home to mom or they're marrying you for the right reasons, you know, the possibility of love and a family.
 
The men you talk about, i.e. porn freaks, couch potatoes and video adolescents will never factor into this equation.
 

In regard to item 4 on your list. What people see as marital bliss varies. For some, the fact that their wives make them think with the wrong head is all they need and want, why shouldn’t they “try it on”? My six sense tells me they would NOT be the ones that will consider their trip waste of time and money afterwards. IF you do not believe me, just ask Pike, Albert or his other embodiments . I do not remember him complaining about his trip being a waste of time and money.

I don't remember them getting married either. Scroll up and reread what I said about sex tourists. 

They also took their fair share of abuse from the peanut gallery for their exploits.

In regard to item 3 on your list. Reassessment of your market value does not necessarily lead to abandoning your partner. People tend to develop emotional attachments to their near and dear people that bound them to their significant others even if the substitution is easily available. Moreover, many people fear changes and often prefer what they have over what they might have. Yet even more significant... if partner’s belonging to certain league is not a dominate need/desire, then whether relationship lasts depends more on mutual desires and need satisfaction than on the leagues to which the partners belong.

Like many of your arguments you seem to focus on exceptions rather than the rule. I understand there will be times when things don't seem to make sense and that love conquers all. Usually in fairy tales. 

We need to stay more in reality and let men know that going too far out of their respective leagues most likely put their train on the wrong track. I think we have had enough wrecks here in the past to prove this point.
 

There are more points I cannot agree with, but by for now I am bored with countering.

Yes, I see that suicide seemed more interesting a topic for discussion with you at that time  .

[chivo]

Great post!
 
This post reiterates many things that I have read here many times but it seems many people seem just not quite get.
 

Thanks Kineo.
 
And yes, nothing earthshattering or groundbreaking with what I wrote, even though a couple of points haven't had their fair justice given to them. But, like you said, many here just don't seem to get it so I thought I would go over it again for whom it may concern.

[Eduard]

10

I am not saying that communication is impossible but it requires investment and work and it is lunacy to think that because she "speaks" English that she is "fluent." (Same reason I have doubts regarding many in-country "translators.") True fluency at least in part includes the ability to understand a language so thoroughly that one can instinctively think in that language.

This is one of the key reasons why my guys have such a high rate of success - they never have to deal with the language barrier. And you are absolutely correct about the "in country" translators. They do have their limitations.