RW with children: pros and cons

[I/O]

Too much bullsch!t about discipline here. Guidance, now there's a word.

[BillyB]

I was spanked when I was a child when I deserved it, and I soon learnt what the limits of acceptable behaviour were.  However, I probably would prefer the "time out" option these days, especially as it is now illegal here to spank your child.

 
I know a Mexican guy who's child reported him to school for spanking. The school reported him to authorities. At court he told the judge this is the way his culture disiplines bad kids. He asked the judge "If my kids are stealing or destroying property, will you pay for it if you take away my authority to raise my kids the way I want? If you will assume responsibility, I will raise my kids the way you want." The judge dropped the case.
 
 
Kids need to learn there is a consequence to every action. Some kids respond to a mature talk. Some don't. Some kids are just wild. I remember being in a store and some young boy was knocking stuff off the shelves non stop. His mom was saying "Johnny, stop it." She said that 50 times but never even touched his hands to stop him or remove him from the store. I guess she's one that believes no physical contact when disiplining her son. Her son will most likely be out of control most of his life until others, including police, use physical contact to show him he's doing wrong.

[Ade]

http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2008/05/harsh-discipline-makes-aggressive.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090915100953.htm
http://library.childwelfare.gov/cwig/ws/library/docs/gateway/Record?rpp=10&upp=0&m=1&w= NATIVE%28%27recno%3D72029%27%29&r=1
http://www.americanhumane.org/children/stop-child-abuse/fact-sheets/child-discipline.html

Although there is still some debate, it seems to me that the use of corporal punishment as a means to control a child's behaviour is short sighted and, TBH, the lazy way of bringing up a child. I would suggest that parents that use physical force to discipline their children deserve to get a swift kick themselves. Studies have shown that the use of positive reinforcement is far more effective in the long term. Physical restraint should be used if absolutely necessary. Those that think being violent towards children can result in favourable behavioural changes are either incredibly misinformed, ignorant and/or stupid. In the vast majority of cases, the behaviour of extremely out of control kids can be traced back to the way the parents brought them up. Very few children are mentally unstable to the point of uncontrollable behaviour and the only effective way of changing behaviour like this is by setting boundaries and being firm, consistent, and patient. I mean really, hitting kids?  How can anyone think this is a good idea?

[GQBlues]

Here is my 2 cents on the topic.

Many men who want to start a family prefer to find a woman who doesn't have children yet. If a guy is young enough, up to his early 40s it is very realistic and possible. There are many RW in their late 20s or very early 30s who would consider marriage to a WM of that age range and who have no children yet. When a WM is approaching 50 years old and up, looking for a woman with a child makes a lot more sense IMO. Here's why:....

Cool. Another wonderful 'do as I say, not as I do' advice.
 
So I guess that not only is it a much better choice these days to own up to someone else's responsibility for the sake of 'expanding one's dating pool, the accepted reality that these women are/will be prepared to marry men who they would (normally) not have anything to do with otherwise, is being heralded as the preferred route.
 
Are the men in this pursuit so stupid and gullible that the what/how they should live their pasture years be chosen for them these days? For the most part, many of the men involved with the MOB couldn't manage to co-exist with a singular woman in their own society, let alone one outside of it and with a child, or two...and likely don't speak her/their language, of different culture, etc...
 
Easy enough...Yes, everything taken at face value.

[OlgaH]

Here is my 2 cents on the topic.

Many men who want to start a family prefer to find a woman who doesn't have children yet. If a guy is young enough, up to his early 40s it is very realistic and possible. There are many RW in their late 20s or very early 30s who would consider marriage to a WM of that age range and who have no children yet.

Mrs (and friends) attitude, if he's over 35, never married, no kids, check the fine print.

To risky for  RW in their late 20s or very early 30s. He can be one of

... many of the men involved with the MOB couldn't manage to co-exist with a singular woman in their own society...

 

Though if a RW is street smart she can use him like a ticket.

[Eduard]

we use the "time out" technique with our 5 year old when she gets out of control. But most of the time one of us has to drag her to her room, she just won't go on her own. Kids can be challenging at times but they bring lots of joy as well which makes it all worth it.

[Shadow]

We use the method that any punishment (and that is mostly non-physical) is done on noticing the behaviour we wish to be corrected. If the behaviour stops, it is praised and all is forgotten.
At young age reasoning is pretty hard as children can get away with playing not understanding what you say.

Sometimes we feel like training pets, sometimes they actually seem to react human...

The good thing however is that they do seem to understand certain things as when they are in company of others they act like little angels...

[BillyB]

I mean really, hitting kids?  How can anyone think this is a good idea?

 
I remember during a Presidential debate Al Gore was asked in he believed in the death penalty. He said "yes, because it actually saves lives when people know there is severe consequence for their actions." I was actually surprised at his answer thinking he was one of those hands off people kind of person.
 
 
Since you think hitting kids is bad, if a bunch of kids attempting to steal your car or beat your wife in an attempt to steal her purse, would you try to negotiate with them with words or fists?
 
 
Nobody is advocating hitting kids for fun but all consequences should be on the table and a child can choose what path in life they want and they should understand some paths have harsher consequences than others.

[Shadow]

Since you think hitting kids is bad, if a bunch of kids attempting to steal your car or beat your wife in an attempt to steal her purse, would you try to negotiate with them with words or fists?
 

Words (of encouragement )

[LAman]

 
I know a Mexican guy who's child reported him to school for spanking. The school reported him to authorities. At court he told the judge this is the way his culture disiplines bad kids. He asked the judge "If my kids are stealing or destroying property, will you pay for it if you take away my authority to raise my kids the way I want? If you will assume responsibility, I will raise my kids the way you want." The judge dropped the case.
 
 
Kids need to learn there is a consequence to every action. Some kids respond to a mature talk. Some don't. Some kids are just wild. I remember being in a store and some young boy was knocking stuff off the shelves non stop. His mom was saying "Johnny, stop it." She said that 50 times but never even touched his hands to stop him or remove him from the store. I guess she's one that believes no physical contact when disiplining her son. Her son will most likely be out of control most of his life until others, including police, use physical contact to show him he's doing wrong.

In first situation...who knows how often kid is spanked/hit and for what reason? Does father drink or take his frustrations out on kid? There is a reason schools report possible abuse.
 
In second example....it is obvious this kid was never supervised from day one. Parenting is nourishing and guiding........setting discipline as child grows. It is behavior learned from day 1.
 This situation mentioned has little to do with 'physical contact'...it is a behavior learned....kinda reminds me of children that yearn for attention....attention that was never given them.

[Ade]

 
I remember during a Presidential debate Al Gore was asked in he believed in the death penalty. He said "yes, because it actually saves lives when people know there is severe consequence for their actions." I was actually surprised at his answer thinking he was one of those hands off people kind of person.
 
 
Since you think hitting kids is bad, if a bunch of kids attempting to steal your car or beat your wife in an attempt to steal her purse, would you try to negotiate with them with words or fists?
 
 
Nobody is advocating hitting kids for fun but all consequences should be on the table and a child can choose what path in life they want and they should understand some paths have harsher consequences than others.

What you don't seem to understand Billy, is that research has shown that violence towards kids is self defeating and the child is less likely to learn good behaviour and more likely to be violent towards others; the risk of that increases the more severe it is, and the longer the violence corporal punishment continues.

To this day, one of the most vivid memories I have as a child is of my father chasing me up the stairs with a slipper in his hand and slapping me across the arse when he caught me. It didn't hurt much as far as I remember, but I, as a 6 or 7 year old, was absolutely terrified and that image remains with me to this day. As contradictory as it sounds, my father is a rather gentle and soft spoken man and he's incredibly difficult to anger. However, he followed this traditional "spanking" methodology thinking, in his ignorance, much like you, that it was a good thing to do. You however, have the benefit of tonnes of research that shows otherwise and you would be freaking dumber than a bag of hammers to blindly ignore it.

One thing is for sure; I do not want any kid of mine to have a vivid memory of being terrified of me into their adulthood. FWIW, as a teenager I was a violent, drug taking, criminal that dropped out of school. So spanking, I must say, had little positive effect on me.

Oh, and as for the death penalty; that is a joke. Have you noticed how many murders you have in the US? Do you know how much it actually costs to put someone to death as opposed to just keep them locked up for their natural lives? Do you understand that most murders are crimes of passion committed in the heat of the moment and not planned so no amount of deterrents will help worth a damn?

[Vinnvinny]

Personally speaking I find there is no greater thrill in life as beating up a child and the subsequent knowledge that they will then be living in fear of a big person. It’s a well known fact that if you beat your offspring they will have tendency to grow up to be fun loving, peaceful and law abiding citizens. No doubt our Bill has run this one past A’s mum and they whooped in agreement.

[Misha]

Since you think hitting kids is bad, if a bunch of kids attempting to steal your car or beat your wife in an attempt to steal her purse, would you try to negotiate with them with words or fists?

I would give them the purse and the car keys. At the end of the day, both can be replaced and the police can be subsequently notified 

[Gator]

Multiple issues. 
 
Issue 1 - Marrying a RW with children.  Before considering the idea, one should decide if he truly likes kids and would make a good stepfather.
 
-   Do kids make you laugh?   
 
-   Do you take pleasure in teaching children about life? 
 
-   Are you patient and consistent?   
 
-   Do you enjoy doing kid things with them?   
 
-   Not only do you need to ask yourself if you will enjoy attending soccer games and piano recitals, can you continue to smile when the young girl is missing every other musical note?    Can you tell a young boy how well he played even though he failed to stop an easy goal?
 
If your answers are positive, then congratulations.  You may be a good stepfather.   Now consider the next level of complexity.  The children will not speak your language, they probably have some bad experiences with father figures, and mama may have a different philosophy about child rearing.  You easily could be made to feel like the unwanted odd child in your new family.
 
IMO the RW should express strongly that she wants you to be an integral part of the whole family as a father rather than just a provider.  Then time together is needed to confirm that the two of you are on the same wavelength.
 

[Gator]

Issue 2 - Is there something wrong with women in their 30s and 40s who never had children?
 
I dated a number of such women.  Most of them seem rather independent if not strong minded.  Neither quality is bad.  In fact, I appreciate such women if they are intelligent and reasonable.  However, they do not exemplify the compliant RW model hyped by the agencies.

[BillyB]

What you don't seem to understand Billy, is that research has shown that violence towards kids is self defeating and the child is less likely to learn good behaviour
 

 
Are you more violent than your father? So much for research. You don't understand. Spanking isn't for teaching children good behavior. It's to discourage repeat bad behavior. Words are used for teaching good behavior. Words will not always discourage bad behavior. That is why other options are available. Time outs or spanking.
 
 
The experts advice does not work for everybody. Some children respond to words. Some children respond to time outs. Some to spanking. One piece of advice does not fit all.
 
As civilization advances I understand some people want to be more moral, more ethical and more civilized than their forefathers. Plenty of books to read on how to do that. If a meteor hits earth and weather goes bad and we lose 80% of our food source, you can throw all the experts advice out the window.
 
 

To this day, one of the most vivid memories I have as a child is of my father chasing me up the stairs with a slipper in his hand and slapping me across the arse when he caught me. It didn't hurt much as far as I remember, but I, as a 6 or 7 year old, was absolutely terrified and that image remains with me to this day.

 
I'm scared to walk in front of a moving train so I don't do it. I'm scared to jump off a cliff so I don't do it. Being terrified isn't a problem. Being scared of a consequence such as spanking isn't no big deal. It helps you not do the things you should not be doing.
 
 
Since being terrified of your father slapping you in the arse with your slipper bothers you to this day, is it safe to say you are pyschologically damaged? I don't think your father damaged you.
 
 

  in his ignorance,
 

 
Bad boy for saying that about your father. You resent him for your failures?
 
 
What did he spank you for? Did you do it again? When he was chasing you, did you try to negotiate with him and tell him it won't happen again and say "give peace a chance"? If so, I don't think he valued your word.
 
 

You however, have the benefit of tonnes of research that shows otherwise and you would be freaking dumber than a bag of hammers to blindly ignore it.

 
So anybody that doesn't agree with you and what you read is dumb? For someone who doesn't like violence and war, you sure like to be combative with words. And you wonder how war starts?
 
 
The so called experts aren't going to pay for bad advice if someones child commits crimes. Everybody's family situation is different. All I know is if parents can't control their kids using approved or unapproved methods, and their kids commit crimes against me, I will use unapproved methods to control their kids. I will guarantee that I will stop the kids better than their parents will.
 
 
 

One thing is for sure; I do not want any kid of mine to have a vivid memory of being terrified of me into their adulthood. FWIW, as a teenager I was a violent, drug taking, criminal that dropped out of school. So spanking, I must say, had little positive effect on me.

 
Maybe you didn't get spanked enough. The slipper on the butt techinique isn't a real spanking. I believe in your teenage years your dad lost control of you. I tell my boys if they act like a 5 year old, they will get spanked like a 5 year old.
 
 
I got my butt spanked hard by my dad a few times. FWIW I grew up to be a law abiding citizen. Never got thrown in jail, never got drunk or done drugs. In high school I was the guy who kicked violent kids(such as yourself) butt when they picked on the weak and the ones with disabilities. I don't credit or discredit spanking for the way I grew up but I realized there are consequences for my actions and spanking was one of them.
 
 
Anyway you and others are still free to answer my earlier question. If your wife is getting a beat down by some kids do you....
 
A) Give them an education through pleasant words on how to be good kids.
 
B) Dig deep into your memory on what the experts said in the books you read and proceed..... to teach kids good things through words and positive reinforcement.
 
C) Remember the time you told BillyB that hitting kids is not good and think of an alternative method to diffuse the situation.... such as beating the kids with love and words of course.
 
D) F the experts and everything you believe in and start kicking azz.
 
 

I would give them the purse and the car keys. At the end of the day, both can be replaced and the police can be subsequently notified 

 
Good answer only for the moment.
 
 
Chances are the kids probably wouldn't be caught and if they believe every man would do what you would do, they would do it again and again. One reason I believe kids target stealing from women over men is because there's less consequence of getting physically hurt. Although some of you think violence is not the answer, I think they would prefer a few minutes of a thorough beatdown from me compared to a few months in jail. 

 
 
 
 

[Gator]

Issue 3 - Discipline and guidance.
 
Ade is correct IMO.  The pain inflicted by a beating overwhelms a young mind to the degree that no lesson is really learned.
 
A parent has many arrows in the quiver other than a whipping to encourage the desired behavior.  Endeavor to be intelligent even though it is more difficult than physical force.  Physical force is the easy way and yet the wrong way.   I have seen parents discipline children for hitting by hitting the child.  Saying, "Don't hit!" while giving the kid a slap.  Duh! 

Nevertheless, there are brief times when you will feel that parents should be allowed to eat their young.    

[pitbull]

Issue 3 - Discipline and guidance.
 
Ade is correct IMO.  The pain inflicted by a beating overwhelms a young mind to the degree that no lesson is really learned.
 
 

I think that abusing a child physically is a way for Billy to establish his power over a child, show who is a "master". The whole "learning a lesson" thing is fluff. Billy is actually an interesting exhibit of an Asian traditional mentality, with the ideas about a submissive wife, man's sex-inherent dominance and whipping the kids into submission. Combined with little education (BillyB, if you have acollege degree please correct me), we get what we get. I don't think any half-educated American woman would have anything to do with him.

[ECOCKS]

Nothing wrong with spankings. In another 20-30 years the pendulum will swing back.

[BillyB]

 

I think that abusing a child physically is a way for Billy to establish his power over a child, show who is a "master".
 

 
Do you have children Pitbull? Are you offended that I could beat your child if your child commits a crime against me? Use whatever method you want to teach your child not commit crimes against others but if you fail, don't blame others for having to get your child re-educated on why it is bad to steal, commit violence, or destroy property.

 
My parents know a high school counselor. Sometimes the school has to call police to come and arrest a student who has weapons or drugs in their possession. Almost always the student parent/s come to school not to scold their child but to scold the school administration and police for framing their child. They protect their child by saying their child don't deal with guns or use drugs. Those parents spared the rod and spoiled the child.

 

Combined with little education (BillyB, if you have acollege degree please correct me), we get what we get.

 
In high school I've scored in the top 1% on national tests. The military send my parents a letter to encourage me to enter into their nuclear and officer programs at the age of 16. I went to college but dropped out to enter the First Gulf War. After the military I got into construction and opened a business. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs dropped out of college and started businesses too. I'm not successful as they are/were.

 
I understand how experts come to their conclusions. They look two docile parents that produce a docile child and the child never needs disipline. They think those parents taught their child well. They look at two parents who have routine problems with the law and their child grows up wild and needs more disipline if words and time outs don't work. Even spanking may not work but regardless, experts think those parents are wrong to use harsher methods. Truth is people genes play a role in their temperment and behavior.

 
If a parent wants their child to grow up respecting other people, who are you to criticize their techniques? Spare the rod and you take a chance in spoiling the child. Once they grow up, it's to late to contemplate what you should've, could've done. Don't be surprised if you have to answer to authorities and pay for damages caused by your child.
 

Digging back into my memory I did what some of you recommend using words to address a situation in the FSU. Words did not work. The first person to criticize me was a RW for not doing more. I regret I didn't beat those kids down. Start with post #8 second paragraph down.

 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7815.0
 

Nothing wrong with spankings. In another 20-30 years the pendulum will swing back.

Ade doesn't believe in spanking so I don't think  he's looking to get payback on his father.

[Misha]

Although some of you think violence is not the answer, I think they would prefer a few minutes of a thorough beatdown from me compared to a few months in jail.

Logically, their strategy will be to meet potential violence with greater violence: i.e. if they think that the victim will fight back, they will bring weapons and if they think you have a weapon they will use theirs first. When I was working in a bank paying my way through university, we had a strict policy of only having some much cash on hand and giving the cash and marked bills without question. I was robbed once, and it was by a woman now that I think of it. Never saw a weapon, she gave a note, I gave her the cash as I rang our emergency buzzer. The police were there shortly, she was arrested within a day or two. At the end of the day, I do not think heroics are the answer and it only encourages an escalation of the potential violence.

[GQBlues]

Nothing wrong with spankings. In another 20-30 years the pendulum will swing back.

I'm old school with this.
 
To begin with, there's a huge difference between spanking a child from beating a child. That's not saying one should be spanking kids with reckless abandon and as a first step of the process....I believe there will be times where spanking is necessary. It doesn't have to be a painful punishment, per se, but rather a physical jolt that catches the child's attention.
 
I've witness far too many Mumski blatantly ignored by their child/ren despite repeated hopeless pleading.
 
There seems to be way too many extremes being played here. BillyB's hypothetical sampling of kids gone bad is a good example. Adolescent criminals commit these crimes not because they lacked spanking when growing up. They became what they are because of abusive parents and/or sheer neglect.
 

 
 

[BillyB]

 

Logically, their strategy will be to meet potential violence with greater violence: i.e. if they think that the victim will fight back, they will bring weapons and if they think you have a weapon they will use theirs first. When I was working in a bank paying my way through university, we had a strict policy of only having some much cash on hand and giving the cash and marked bills without question. I was robbed once, and it was by a woman now that I think of it. Never saw a weapon, she gave a note, I gave her the cash as I rang our emergency buzzer. The police were there shortly, she was arrested within a day or two. At the end of the day, I do not think heroics are the answer and it only encourages an escalation of the potential violence.

I hit real hard in people's weak spots. I doubt many people would have the chance to retaliate. I understand there are different circumstances where a guy is weak, a guy is old, or a guy is severely outnumbered but if giving the purse to the thieves doesn't stop the beating of his girl, he needs to MAN up. Misha, if your wife continued to get beat after giving up the purse, can you get violent with extreme prejudice?
 
I remember driving by seeing a fight between a white teenager and a black teenager. The black guy was pounding the white guy as he lay on the ground almost motionless. About 50 black teenagers were watching the fight. I turned around and blew my horn at the crowd and they scattered. I would have not done that if my kids or future wife was in the car but for myself, I can put myself in harms way for the benefit of others.
 
Working at the bank they have rules and proceedures to handle robbers. If they didn't have these rules and a bank teller got hurt taking action into their own hands through ignorance, the bank could be sued for millions. For banks it's not about what is the right or wrong way to handle robbers, it's about keeping their employees safe to avoid lawsuits. Bank tellers must submit to robbers everytime.
 

I'm old school with this.
 
To begin with, there's a huge difference between spanking and beating a child. That's not saying one should be spanking kids with reckless abandon and as a first step of the process....I believe there will be times where spanking is necessary. It doesn't have to be a painful punishment, per se, but rather a physical jolt that catches the child's attention.
 

There are those that think a pat on the butt is still a beating. I hate to think what happens when society gets too soft.
 

I've witness far too many Mumski blatantly ignored by their child/ren despite repeated hopeless pleading.
 

I see it, you see it, why don't others see it? Maybe it's only happening when we're around and it's our fault? If my kids doesn't listen to mommy's kind, polite, word filled requests, they will have to deal with me when words don't work.

[ECOCKS]

I'm old school with this.
 
To begin with, there's a huge difference between spanking a child from beating a child. That's not saying one should be spanking kids with reckless abandon and as a first step of the process....I believe there will be times where spanking is necessary. It doesn't have to be a painful punishment, per se, but rather a physical jolt that catches the child's attention.
 
I've witness far too many Mumski blatantly ignored by their child/ren despite repeated hopeless pleading.
 
There seems to be way too many extremes being played here. BillyB's hypothetical sampling of kids gone bad is a good example. Adolescent criminals commit these crimes not because they lacked spanking when growing up. They became what they are because of abusive parents and/or sheer neglect.

Exactly.

[Misha]

 
I hit real hard in people's weak spots. I doubt many people would have the chance to retaliate. I understand there are different circumstances where a guy is weak, a guy is old, or a guy is severely outnumbered but if giving the purse to the thieves doesn't stop the beating of his girl, he needs to MAN up. Misha, if your wife continued to get beat after giving up the purse, can you get violent with extreme prejudice?

So where exactly did you write in the original post about the thieves beating anybody up? Thieves generally want to steal. If you give them what they want, they generally leave quickly.
 

I remember driving by seeing a fight between a white teenager and a black teenager. ...

Cell phones + 911 work wonders in Canada