UW vs RW: Better cooks, workers, lovers, spouses ??

[Muzh]

Jim, loved you post. You should cut and paste it for WV for him to learn a thing or two about what marraige is all about.

[mies]

Said there was a marked difference between the upkeep of the yards, gardens, etc.  The Ukrainian areas always looked much better...

I believe the generalized truth is that Ukrainians from historically rural/agricultural regions of Ukraine are much more individualistic than Russians from central (rural and agricultural) part of Russia (I can't speak for Siberia and Far East in Russia - there probably the cultural traditions are different).

In my observation, Russians are much more (than Ukrainians) inclined to sharing (emotionally and materially), and to random acts of kindness - no matter whether they will have anything out of this. They make their decisions to interact based on whether the other person is "good" or "bad" - they treat well people whom they believe to be good and avoid people whom they believe to be bad.

Ukrainians, on the contrary, have very strong feeling of "possession" and "property." They try to acquire material property, and take good care of it. They are also more likely to form very close social networks, and help within these networks knowing there will be a "return on investment" or that it will make their network stronger, will strengthen their position within their social circle, etc. They are also known (among other Slavic nationalities) to be very jealous of the possessions of other people in their social circle. They want to be better than neighbor, have more stuff than neighbor does, achieve better results in life. Of course they try to achieve it by being hard-working and goal-oriented, but they are also very known for preventing others from succeeding, that is "if others will be worse than me, I will look better comparing to them."
Based on my observations, Ukrainians seldom make "random acts of kindness," and they are always inquiring "what's in it for me?"

Probably, this is why an average Ukrainian can adapt better to Capitalism than average Russian. 

What are the implications for this? If UW will consider her American husband her "possession" - she will take good care of him, as she takes good care of everything that belongs to her.

Maybe RW will be more likely to give (emotions, care, etc)  to her American husband just because she likes giving to the person she loves, not because she views it as "taking care of her possession."  This may be interpreted by her husband as she lets him be the "head of the family" or that she submits to him. In my opinion - this isn't exactly right. RW will care about her husband because she thinks he is a good man, and because she loves him. If he will make something to make her change her mind - the social agreement (she gives to him - love, care, etc) will be off.

[mendeleyev]

Calm, great photo of the garbage chute! Yours is blue which is a very common stairway colour. Ours was repainted last year as a sour apple green and I like your colour better.
 
 Those chutes typically lead to an outdoor opening, not a very pleasant sight. Older buildings situated those next to the entryway but later they were directed to the side or back of the building. Much like a laundry chute in multi-story homes, you open the hatch and deposit the garbage in a bag. That bag drops to the ground floor where someone must shovel it up and cart it off to nearby trash bins.
 
 Some buildings today have sealed those and each family is responsible to take your garbage down and outside to trash collections bins.

 

The photo of the collection bins below is of our Moscow apartment.

 

[Kineo]

ManLooking, interesting topic!

I think it is good that you introduced the subject because so many agencies sell a fantasy to Western men. Then upon finding that the ladies just can't measure up to all the agency hype, the men feel cheated and the women feel that they were "recruited" for a job instead of building a life together from mutual respect and love.

By the same token we WM don't always measure up to the expectations some RW/UW have for the same reasons of being "oversold" by agencies and others as if somehow we make better husbands and fathers than RM/UM.

ML, while I don't think the military man was correct as a generalization, obviously even a broken clock is right twice a day. That being said, all of us enter relationships with expectations about what the other person will do for us and in a setting where two people from different cultures, different languages and far away places consummate a marriage after a meeting or two and some emails and Skye conversations, it's no wonder there is so much heartbreak after a few years.

I must share this: last night I called Mrs. M on her cell phone. She is in the Canary Islands on an art tour and when she answered the phone, just one word let me know that she loves and misses me. It was the excitement in how she spoke my name, then immediately followed with a pet nickname she reserves for me. It made her day that I called and it showed by her reaction.

At that moment all the cleaning and cooking in the world didn't matter. I knew with every fiber of my being that my best friend and I could have talked for hours--we didn't because of the expense--but we had a great call from start to finish. BTW, she is a good cook, my MIL is a great cook, and I'm right behind. Over the years we've learned to flex and form a team to manage what needs to be done.

I will also share this: A leftover from Soviet times were the apartment garbage ladies whose job is to daily clean the base of those huge metal garbage tubes found in the stairways of many older buildings. There seemed to be a stigma attached and my MIL never wanted me to take out the garbage as if that was something shameful for a man or person in society. I made a rule that Mrs. M was to never take out the garbage. Either I did the garbage duty or one of the children, and it eventually included washing dishes. That rule, a way to honour her, stood for a long time. Only as the children have moved out on their own and my job now requires travel 4-5 days weekly has it been necessary for me to sometimes wimp out on that pledge. 

If there is truly love with mutual admiration and respect, then who boils the potatoes doesn't really matter.

  
 
This post is worth framing to hang on the wall!
 
 
 

[mies]

I will also share this: A leftover from Soviet times were the apartment garbage ladies whose job is to daily clean the base of those huge metal garbage tubes found in the stairways of many older buildings. There seemed to be a stigma attached and my MIL never wanted me to take out the garbage as if that was something shameful for a man or person in society. I made a rule that Mrs. M was to never take out the garbage. Either I did the garbage duty or one of the children, and it eventually included washing dishes. That rule, a way to honour her, stood for a long time.

This is a noble notion, Mendeleev.
I do not know what was a male-female ratio in the "apartment garbage cleaning" job, I've seen both men and women doing it. However, the task to take out the trash from apartment/home/house to the outdoor waste container or the rubbish chute has always been a husband's job in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Can't speak for other republics. As you know, FSUW families rely heavily on traditions: woman cooks, does laundry and ironing. Man does everything that involves using hammers, screw-drivers, and takes out trash. In a way, you are no different than any other Russian or Ukrainian family. Maybe a little bit different, because sometimes FSU men forget to take out trash, or do not want to take it out on a particular day, and then they get reminded by their wives "you forgot to do your chore." It sounds like you always took it out voluntarily.
I honestly don't know why your MIL acted the way she did as if there is some stigma in a RUssian society. As you can see from my post - the situation is exactly the opposite from what you have been lead to believe. Maybe this was the way to please you - as in "trash is usually man's job, but i love my SIL so much that i'll do that for him."

[mendeleyev]

Having lived in, not just visited, Russia, I seldom see a man take out the trash. I do however see women taking it out all the time. Perhaps it's just Moscow neighborhoods: 1.5 years at Mendeleyevskaya, 2 years Studencheskaya, 10 years at  Petrovsko-Razumovskaya, until purchasing our current flat near Kozhukhovskaya.  I've spent more time that the average bear in Shakhty and Kaluga and can tell you that a friend in Kaluga chastised me, kidding but there is truth in humour, that I was making it hard on him because his wife was watching things I did (like taking out garbage) for my wife.

I do see RM take a more active role in dacha life. I could agree with you on countless incidents at our Volgograd river dacha where RM take a more active role at their summer home.

By the way, I'm very pro-RM/UM. The agency sales hype that RW/UW are looking for good men in the West because there are none in Russia/Ukraine is a sad lie and shameful. The real issue in my mind is not who takes out the garbage, but what roles men and women expect of each other and what our built-in expectations are of the other person.

[55North]

However, the task to take out the trash from apartment/home/house to the outdoor waste container or the rubbish chute has always been a husband's job in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Can't speak for other republics.

Upon reflection, I have a notion that I always put out the garbage on my English street, - but it's cool.  She does the interior stuff like extracting/tying up the mucky waste, and doing the cat's litter tray.  I get to do complex and manly stuff like sorting for recycling (3 colour codes) and wheeling to the kerbside.
 
And have a smoke (correctly forbidden indoors).   Result!
 

[mies]

Having lived in, not just visited, Russia, I seldom see a man take out the trash. I do however see women taking it out all the time.

Have you asked those women who were taking out trash if they are married?
Maybe men take out trash in the different time than women do, and you are not outside during this time? (for example, women are much more mindful of safety rules, and hence they do not like taking out trash late at night, while men may do it very late at night, or very early in the morning.)

If we are talking about single men -
Maybe some men in the area where you lived hire cleaning ladies who take out the trash from the apartment?
Maybe men are messier and they do not take out trash as often as women do?
Maybe women cook more often than men do, and men eat out more often, hence - not much trash is generated so they do not need to take it out very often?

Those are just the few hypothesis. The first two are actually the most applicable to our discussion.

"Исследование основано на опро-се членов 386 домохозяйств города Саранска (согласно методу В.И. Паниот-то, реально сделанная выборка из генеральной совокупности 120000 семей допускает ошибку полученных результатов не более _+ 5,0 %, уровень на-дежности составляет 95%). С респондентами проводилось очное стандарти-зированное анкетирование по месту их жительства, был применен шаговый квотно-гнездовой метод.
Из перечисленных видов работ самыми женскими оказались стирка одежды, глажение одежды, приготовление пищи, уборка квартиры, мытье посуды, покупка продуктов. Далее идут близкие к гендерно нейтральным или гендерно нейтральные домашние обязанности: управление бюджетом, уход за престарелыми, планирование досуга. Воспи-тание детей и принятие решения в семье оказались самыми эгалитарными видами домашней работы, 73% и 72,5% респондентов соответственно, отме-тили, что их выполняют чаще всего оба супруга.
Что примеча-тельно, из 13 видов домашней деятельности мужчины выполняют чаще только два - мужья в два раза чаще жен выносят мусор, и в 3.5 раза чаще - ремонтируют вещи и квартиру."
(in red - for other forum members, since I know you speak russian fluently): "Among listed household chores, the most "women type" appeared to be laundry, ironing, cooking, home cleaning, dishwashing, and grocery shopping. Remarkably, out of 13 types of household chores, there are only two which are more often performed by men than women: men take out the trash twice more often than women do, and repair items and apartment 3.5 times more often than women do."
That's pretty much what I wrote in my original post on the topic of trash and roles in the household.

Source: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:zTGShb7HHbIJ:www.isras.ru/files/File/Socis/2005-6/dadayevatm.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh_hBY53qa_1foLhQLDehnku_4eXRSdtVkTKH5eb8Lj7x0R9mjdGuTPRUkGvtp443N6UugpZP-OiuuoAT47psPN4d8AvBjWibO-4kG51lsHUKJk_VEU5FNE4m7T0e-kAag1wgml&sig=AHIEtbRLHqVqc5uztMFDAv5eUqXQ-TalWw

The quick check is to simply use "кто выносит мусор в семье" as a search phrase in google. Multiple links, forum polls and discussions provide quide good explanation/facts on the matter of who takes out trash in russian-speaking FSU countries.

For example here:
http://irc.lv/qna/%D0%9A%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%B2_%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8C%D0%B5_%D0%B8_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8C_%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%80
The three most typical answers from RM are:
"дома я всегда таскаю мусор, это чисто мужская работа" - I do, this is a man's job.
or
"я и только я.
в случае чего он окажется у меня на голове " - I do, only I. Otherwise the trash will be on my head.
or
"А что, в семье должность такая должна быть? Кто увидел, тот и вынес" - "should there be such job in a family? whoever notices that trash needs to be taken out - does it."
An interesting observation: not a single poster wrote that this is a "woman's job."

 

[Gator]

Maybe men are messier and they do not take out trash as often as women do?

Don't blame the men.  Blame their mamas.      A typical mama is more strict with her daughter than with her son:   
 

 

[Gator]

 Some buildings today have sealed those and each family is responsible to take your garbage down and outside to trash collections bins.

The chutes I have seen are very small and would not accept a fully packed bag. 
 
 
 
 

 

The photo of the collection bins below is of our Moscow apartment.

 
You must live in a first class apartment because your trash bins are splendid, even covered and secured.  Such security is depriving some people of income (those unfortunate souls who sift through the trash looking for something of value).
 
I found it interesting that the waste collection trucks usually come every day in Moscow because the bins  filled to capacity each day (an indication of Moscow's prosperity).
 
 

[BC]

 
You must live in a first class apartment because your trash bins are splendid, even covered and secured. Such security is depriving some people of income (those unfortunate souls who sift through the trash looking for something of value).
 

Yes, much nicer than I have seen in other places.. but don't see a lock so think those looking for something will find it easily.

[BC]

Don't blame the men.  Blame their mamas.      A typical mama is more strict with her daughter than with her son:   

Noted that also, not just among RW.  Can create 'penis envy' and sibling rivalry problems along the way..

[mendeleyev]

Have you asked those women who were taking out trash if they are married?

Haven't asked as I don't think Mrs. M would like for me to do that sort of thing.

The chutes I have seen are very small and would not accept a fully packed bag. 

True, but rarely does a Russian household purchase bags as large as 30 gallon or even 13 gallon kitchen or yard sized garbage bags. Most garbage thrown down a chute is done in bags collected from previous market trips and many kitchen trash cans are somewhere +/- the size you'd find in a typical American bathroom.

Many housewives collect and save bags as they're also used for repeat shopping trips since many markets charge for bags.

[mendeleyev]

Maybe men take out trash in the different time than women do, and you are not outside during this time? (for example, women are much more mindful of safety rules, and hence they do not like taking out trash late at night, while men may do it very late at night, or very early in the morning.)

Very plausible idea as I wouldn't want either my daughters, wife or MIL taking out garbage at night. I am an early riser and don't see many men taking it out in the AM but would not argue the point.


я и только я, "I and only I" is a great response from RM! So much for the "RM have bad attitudes about marriage" hype on dating sites targeting Western men.

Mies, I was very encouraged after reading the study you linked. Thanks.

[mendeleyev]

Gator, while we have remodeled inside and the place is very nice, the apartment and the neighborhood are really ordinary.





It is a quiet neighborhood, about 5 minutes walk to a Metro Station, and with small markets and kiosks nearby.

[2tallbill]

No two women are exactly alike. There is no way ALL Ukrainian women are similar in
some ways that noticeably contrasts with ALL Russian women. Anecdotal stories
aside, Russian women are more similar to Ukrainian women than different.