women with adult children

[ML]

Probably most of you have heard the old Russian joke that was told to me a few times by various business associates.

Two men talking.
One asks the other if he would give first man $1 mil if he had $ 2 mil.
Sure says second man.
Several other questions were asked regarding sharing things; and  the second man agreed he would readily share all these things with first man.
Last question:  If you had two bottles of vodka, would you give me one.
No, definitely not.
Why?
Because I actually have two bottles of vodka.

= = = = =

Are we seeing any evidence of that?

[JR]

  But I see an unusual concentration of frucking jerks.

Tsk tsk tsk DP (Hmmm, where of where have I heard those initials before?) you shouldn't be thinking of your "family" members in such a way
Makes no difference if she "hinted" or outright asked or if he cut her off at the pass before she was able to get it out: there is no sick family member. And if there is then there's nothing wrong with paying the hospital directly. But I'd give you a hundred to one odds that if he made such an offer there would be some reason why he could only pay thru her...

[TheTraveler]

One more thing. As someone noted, setting a monthly stipend as a condition is what concerned me. Too much like a business deal to me.

I agree with what your gut is telling you.
 
Laying out your future like it's a business deal, followed by requests for gifts for her daughter/grand-daughter, followed by requests for money for her mom's medical bills...
 
She knows that all of these money requests carry the risk of turning you off and running you off... and she doesn't seem to care.  Basically, this shows you where you and this relationship fit in with her priorities.  And I'd disregard the advice of those on this thread who say this is somehow the norm.  It isn't.
 
I'd dump her and move on to a woman who doesn't raise red flags.
 

[Donna_Pedro]

Tsk tsk tsk DP (Hmmm, where of where have I heard those initials before?) you shouldn't be thinking of your "family" members in such a way

No, I am thinking of you and your "family" members in such a way.  You are not fools, no. You are just petty jerks with low self esteem, who are afraid not to have a full return on every damn dime invested. Go to russian-english dictionary, look up the word жлоб(ы). There should be your "family" (group) portrait right next to it.

[Donna_Pedro]

She knows that all of these money requests carry the risk of turning you off and running you off... and she doesn't seem to care.

Of course, a woman who is probably upset out of her mind, struggling, trying to help her dying mom and  divorcing  daughter should put the "risk of turning a guy off"  on top of her priorities. This is so insightful!

[Kuna]

Of course, a woman who is probably upset out of her mind, struggling, trying to help her dying mom and  divorcing  daughter should put the "risk of turning a guy off"  on top of her priorities. This is so insightful!

Oh good grief... was the woman "upset out of her mind" when trying to manipulate income support for her adult daughter who married poorly???  Come on - show a little integrity when trying to justify such actions.

If the woman's mother is ill it would be very sad - and JR's suggestion of paying the bills directly is a great idea.  Even suggesting so would tell the OP plenty.   

My suggestion to the OP stands... be very careful handing over cash in a situation like this... the demands on his pocket are not going to reduce after marriage and if he feels like it's an impost (morally or financially) now, then he should cut her loose and save himself a lot of trouble because it's never going to get better.

[Ade]

Of course, a woman who is probably upset out of her mind, struggling, trying to help her dying mom and  divorcing  daughter should put the "risk of turning a guy off"  on top of her priorities. This is so insightful!

A couple of things;

1) Would you feel comfortable asking for gifts from a man you've only seen face to face for a week or so? Would you feel comfortable asking for $4K however indirectly? FWIW, I don't think it's "normal" or "in the culture" to do so among decent people - and that's from a native Ukrainian from around your generation.

2) Isn't health care in Ukraine free? Okay, you need to have a few $ to grease the wheels but $4K?

3) The likelihood of any surgeon operating on a terminally ill cancer patient of 80 , even in the west, is remote at best.

4) Again, it's the expectation of money/gifts from a stranger that's not a good sign here.

Going by his side of the story, this is a scam, plain and simple. At best, she is a woman that is out for money and a lifestyle above all and only a desperate man would continue.

[Kuna]

At best, she is a woman that is out for money and a lifestyle above all and only a desperate man would continue.

Donna_Pedro knows this... and think it's OK.   

[Patagonie]

Guys,
Thanks for all of your comments. The way I will probably approach this is compromise that when she works, she can send money but other parts of the budget will not be compromised. As long as she works somewhere even making only $800 a month, it won't be a problem unless she ends up spending beyond her paycheck. That way, she decides what she wants to do with her paycheck. This will also show that I am not willing to give a blank check. Of course, there is nothing set in stone even if the woman agrees so I could be setting myself up for arguments down the road or it could be fine.
   I agree with a lot of guys that agreeing to a lifetime of support is not something I agree with. Also, once you start sending money every month, next comes requests for more. So far, she continues to be positive with me on Skype in spite of this issue and is not active on the dating site where we first met. I don't send her money now and don't plan on sending anything beyond visa expenses if the relationship comes to that. I have been doing the FSU dating thing for years now and no matter where you look, there seem to be issues about money with these women. I find it best to limit what you send and buy gifts while there within reason. I have seen guys give into the peer pressure of these women if they get upset that they are not spending enough. I am easygoing but assertive so I can walk away at any time if need be.
     Before I left, I already went over how much I make, how much is realistic to spend on extras (cosmetics, clothes, restaurants, etc) and the importance of saving for future expenses and retirement. Again, you never know if it went through one ear and out the other and once the woman is here, it is like she never heard it. The guys who found a woman with reasonable expectations should count themselves lucky!

"Before I left, I already went over how much I make, how much is realistic to spend on extras (cosmetics, clothes, restaurants, etc) and the importance of saving for future expenses and retirement"

This is the pitfall, this is the mistake you have done in my opinion. NEVER TELL to an FSU women what are your wages, incomes, assets. NEVER (just when you are just married). Never give them a numeral because they become crazy about this. They transforme instantly your 4000 $ in .......... ukrainian 4000 $. So a gold life. They have no realistic idea of what are the costs (ok they have traveled they know that prices are often more expansive  (but not for all sometimes prices in FSU are more expansive) in the west, but this just a concept. They know shit about taxes. Just Civi, imagine you are a women you earn 4000$ and you meet a man who come from Superland, a country reputed famous for having no women but very high ressources in oil and gold. He comes and explain you i want to get married but we need to be careful i only earn 52 000 $ per month. (you laugh ? but this this exactly what happened in her minds and exactly the difference between your income and her (if she earns 300$ wich is not so bad). So what is 4000 $ for you in this situation ? a month of income (nothing more than 300 for her).
You have touch the death kiss. Because if you don't pay or if you argue or pay less, you will enter in the "greedy" zona.
When you give her no clue about numerals she cannot play for amount.
But now you are an hostage of your mistake. You are your own hostage.
Don't let too much to guess. Let they guess it will be enough but never with a numeral.
I have told the amount of my income one time. I have memorized the lesson and i have never forgot. I had modified my travel wardrobe to wear a maximum of non high brand clothes. And  I avoid like the plague to show photo of my car or speak about properties. If i mention it it's just like "yes i do such business" very quick and next.     

[Patagonie]

Anyway, and i share the opinion of a lot of OP here, she is just showing that she has not a good demeanor, and as you have already got a foot in the loop, you are good for the washing machine. The big question is : do you want to play ?

[Patagonie]

Probably most of you have heard the old Russian joke that was told to me a few times by various business associates.

Two men talking.
One asks the other if he would give first man $1 mil if he had $ 2 mil.
Sure says second man.
Several other questions were asked regarding sharing things; and  the second man agreed he would readily share all these things with first man.
Last question:  If you had two bottles of vodka, would you give me one.
No, definitely not.
Why?
Because I actually have two bottles of vodka.

= = = = =

Are we seeing any evidence of that?

[whynotme]

No, I am thinking of you and your "family" members in such a way.  You are not fools, no. You are just petty jerks with low self esteem, who are afraid not to have a full return on every damn dime invested. Go to russian-english dictionary, look up the word жлоб(ы). There should be your "family" (group) portrait right next to it.

 
completely agree - after reading this thread

[civi68]

Boy, a lot of strong feelings about this situation. In a relationship, there needs to be boundaries between the married couple and family. A married couple should consider their financial well being as a priority over children or other relatives. Many people would be surprised to read that one of the worst financial moves is to pay for your children's college. Whether the woman is from another culture or not, she is going from a situation where her family was the most important to where the man and the marriage needs to be the most important. Most of us do not have the resources to send monthly stipends and to pay for emergency medical care of extended family members. Yes, send a few hundred dollars during special holidays. It is not a matter of whether a person is a kind and giving person. It is a matter of recognizing that you can't support a lot of people. We are fortunate to have health care in this country. But when you don't have it and have a serious illness, family and friends can't afford to pay for it.

[civi68]

Everyone made a lot of good points. I would like to add that when I spent time with this woman, I had nothing to complain about her. She was pleasant and affectionate. Like many women, she liked to shop and had unrealistic ideas about an American man's finances. I bought her some things but kept it reasonable. She didn't balk or refuse sex when I said no which I took as a good sign. But I found the unrealistic money issues to be normal with most of these women. The key is whether a woman accepts reality or is stubborn about the dream of big money. One thing I had going against me is that she had a friend that gave her the idea to join the dating site. Before this friend left for America, her future husband sent whatever money she requested for herself and her family, which was in the hundreds if not thousands. Guys out there who send huge amounts of money, stop as you make it bad for us and for yourself as well!

[civi68]

When she asked about sending money to her daughter, I emphasized that if she works, she can send money there but it depends on our finances. I don't agree with monthly stipends but I compromised since it would be her money. I also told her that if she sends money, there also may be less extra spending on restaurants, clothes, trips, etc. I told her that we can't afford to send any money if she is not working. Then, the husband left. So, I added that it would be unrealistic for us to send her daughter money forever and that she should find an American man if she can't make it in Ukraine. I also was firm that I would not sign an I-864 obligating me for her daughter/granddaughter to live here in the future because of health insurance issues. I also was not willing to be on the hook with an I-864 for 10 years for 3 people. I didn't get an argument about any of these issues but I also didn't get a firm yes.
   During this discussions, I did give my salary but not my savings. I showed her how much we need to live on for food/utilities, how much we need to put towards retirement, savings for future car/home expenses, etc. Basically, I showed her that there is not a lot of money laying around for excessive spending.

[civi68]

I also sent her some news articles about life in America, both good and bad. She was surprised to learn about how many Americans are out of work and how many were working for low pay. I emphasized to her that her salary would be low, probably working as a waitress or retail. I told her she will have to work and that I can't support her on my salary. She has no job skills. It is surprising how many of these women don't know about these things and how serious things are in Europe.
    Then, after a month upon my return from my trip, she says her mother is sick. Then, a few weeks ago, it is cancer. Then, a week ago, the request for money. It took a week to get the money amount needed. She felt that I shouldn't have to ask and should say yes. Then, when I said no and said I needed an amount, she said the operation costs $4000. Nothing about what I should pay. Then, I say this is a large amount to expect a man to pay. She then replies at least half. So, I think she was waiting to see how much I would pay and then gave me the lowest acceptable amount. During none of this time, I am thinking about paying for it but am curious about how much she is expecting me to pay. I tell her that our relationship is too new and that there are more things to work out in the future. Things such as starting the visa process, her not being here for many months, and marriage being months off.
     I wrote these posts to show everyone that for all of the debate about charity, helping people out, man showing he is sincere, etc, what you are willing to do often determines future expectations. It is not just about being in love with a woman and doing whatever it takes for the family in need. It is about whether your relationship will succeed or fail, whether the woman is realistic or unrealistic about finances, and whether she is willing to compromise during serious situations. We are not saviors who go into debt for these women and sacrifice all. Unfortunately, I know too many guys who spend tens of thousands of dollars in these relationships, whether it be on material things, trips, or family problems, only to end up with no money and working forever.

[Patagonie]

When she asked about sending money to her daughter, I emphasized that if she works, she can send money there but it depends on our finances. I don't agree with monthly stipends but I compromised since it would be her money. I also told her that if she sends money, there also may be less extra spending on restaurants, clothes, trips, etc. I told her that we can't afford to send any money if she is not working. Then, the husband left. So, I added that it would be unrealistic for us to send her daughter money forever and that she should find an American man if she can't make it in Ukraine. I also was firm that I would not sign an I-864 obligating me for her daughter/granddaughter to live here in the future because of health insurance issues. I also was not willing to be on the hook with an I-864 for 10 years for 3 people. I didn't get an argument about any of these issues but I also didn't get a firm yes.
   During this discussions, I did give my salary but not my savings. I showed her how much we need to live on for food/utilities, how much we need to put towards retirement, savings for future car/home expenses, etc. Basically, I showed her that there is not a lot of money laying around for excessive spending.

The situation i have explained before Civi, i had not displayed properties just my salary (WITHOUT properties' money). And this girl came with a Lexus 3 liters at the airport and is having a top job in FSU capital.
You are expressing some mature, realistic and honests explanations of what will be our life in USA. BUT you earn (see my example 53000$ by month (from a western standard) 4000 damned ukrainian $ this is her INNER WORLD of what she can now expect FROM you. She is so far of what you are explaining, better to speak chinese.   What is important is not the world (the real one), or what you think to do with such budget but what she can do (HER) with such money (your salary). May you understand the difference ?
About one of your lasts posts : you are right a lot of man spoil girls (west and east), a lot use to put money to impress girls (to warm love) and it brings a lot of problems later in relationship for both parties. A lot of scammers or prodaters are because there are too much men who don't set boundaries around the couple love/money.

[Misha]

[size=78%]look up the word жлоб(ы)[/size]

Some might argue that it is better to be a жлоб than a лох 

[Misha]

But I found the unrealistic money issues to be normal with most of these women.

Then, you might have been looking for love in the wrong places    The women that I met were extremely reasonable and rational with money and if anything it is my wife that keeps me on the frugal path 

[Misha]

I told her that we can't afford to send any money if she is not working. Then, the husband left.

The cynical might say that this was quite "convenient" 

[GoodOlBoy]

Then, you might have been looking for love in the wrong places   

Yeah Misha, I was thinking about the same song to:


 
 

... if anything it is my wife that keeps me on the frugal path 

Same here.
My RW (Marina) can make a penny squeal. 
 
GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

I told her she will have to work and that I can't support her on my salary.

This is a very serious admission Civi68.
Hats off for your honesty!
It will be interesting to see how the rest of RWD reacts to this revelation. 
 
GOB

[Gator]

Gator,
 
do I remember correctly that your lady's daughter frequently gets expensive gifts from men without having any intention of having a relationship with any of them?


Do you not think it is slightly hypocritical from your Cossack woman to pass such harsh judgement on someone who asked her BF to help in a difficult family situation?

First, my Cossack woman and I do not converse well enough for me to explain the "grey" subtleties of this issue.  My explanation was brief, and she responded with a "black and white" answer.

Second, regarding the daughter, there is a huge difference IMO.  The daughter never asks for gifts; her ample assets make weak men not think clearly.     When in Russia she did receive from her boyfriend a mink coat, diamond bracelet, etc.  However, he was her one and only boyfriend.  RM do such things.

In America she attaches much significance to first impressions.  Yet that does not stop her from talking with men who could be interesting.   When they make their move, she cautions she just wants to be friends.   That has not stopped  a Saudi student,  Russian expats (who may be married), and an older American man from buying her gifts.    These men have the mentality that they can buy affection from a starving student.    American men near her age don't buy her gifts.

Ironically, the only man who has captured her fancy was a young American man.   She is serious and thought him the same.   As it turned out, he lied to her and simply wanted to play.

The older American man gave her the finest bouquet  of roses I have ever seen.  Two men delivered the flowers and set them up!   She told him "friends only."  He thought he could do the impossible.  He kept asking her to come to Orlando.  She insisted on two rooms and also bringing her married Russian friend.  He agreed.  Of course in Orlando he tried to kiss her, and when she refused he became angry.  Her friend drove her back to my home.  His behavior was so immature to be comical.   Are these the men who go to the FSU and give AM a bad name and make RW leery?

Ranetka, do you still see it the same as Civi's woman?  I agree with the RW who think that Civi's woman may be overstressed now.  However, that is when she reaches out to Civi for comfort and support.  Only Civi knows what words were stated, when and tone.
 

[Donna_Pedro]

A couple of things;

1) Would you feel comfortable asking for gifts from a man you've only seen face to face for a week or so? Would you feel comfortable asking for $4K however indirectly? FWIW, I don't think it's "normal" or "in the culture" to do so among decent people - and that's from a native Ukrainian from around your generation.

2) Isn't health care in Ukraine free? Okay, you need to have a few $ to grease the wheels but $4K?

3) The likelihood of any surgeon operating on a terminally ill cancer patient of 80 , even in the west, is remote at best.

4) Again, it's the expectation of money/gifts from a stranger that's not a good sign here.
.

1. Yes. I did felt very comfortable to ask for money from my husband to be and we are married for over 10 years now, having been through "good times and bad". It is is my solid belief that every man, american or otherwise when courting is supposed to spend money. And I never had it otherwise in my life. Thats what my grownup son is doing, when courting a girl - being a gentleman, though I doubt that this  concept is familiar to this "family".  But putting myself in that girl's shoes, if a family member was dying and I had no means to help, I would not ask for help, I would cry and  beg for it to everybody who would listen. And I wouldnt give a damn  what anybody thinks of me. As far as $4000 goes - he asked a question, she answered. I never said he is supposed to give the full amount. Only as much as he thinks is comfortable.


2. Officially yes. Not in reality.

[Donna_Pedro]

"Before I left, I already went over how much I make, how much is realistic to spend on extras (cosmetics, clothes, restaurants, etc) and the importance of saving for future expenses and retirement"

This is the pitfall, this is the mistake you have done in my opinion. NEVER TELL to an FSU women what are your wages, incomes, assets.

But you are supposed to disclose this info sooner or later anyway..Imagine how foolish you would feel, when she learns. Not just a jerk but a fool too.