women with adult children

[jeff9556]

You need to reword this as it is inconsistent with reality.  People in FSU, referring to Soviet years, often make the same mistake.

In your case; you pay big taxes and then some things come without specific additional payment at point of usage.

In the Soviet case; they received tiny wages and then some things came without specific additional payment at point of usage.

Nothing is ever free, nor can it be.

Yes, agreed, of course.

The real point I am trying to drive home here is that no matter who you are, or what income you earn, you get access to these services - so we have a very egalitarian society, with comparatively high standard of living - e.g. regularly in the top five for IHDI and other standard of living indexes.

Its just a different system and it works, at least for small countries like those in Scandinavia with a socialist tradition. The focus here is not on how much you earn, its on quality of life and egalitarianism.

[jeff9556]

Agree with ML,
Through this type of investigation one can usually get information on a person's physical assets, such as a house and a car. One's house or car is not always an indicator of one's worth, but rather a lifestyle choice.

Totally, look into my background and you won't find a car, instead a bicycle. My "healthy lifestyle" choice - I hate driving and by and large don't ever need to.

[Donna_Pedro]

For example, when we were dating my husband didn't own a car or a house, he was renting a small studio. Would you advice against marrying a guy like that, D_P?

 I do not give advice on whom to marry or not marry. I merely  help to investigate a person's financial situation and explain what life style it might translate to.  Decision is not mine to make. Of course this information  is not full and can not be taken at a 100% face value. Also, there is usually more info available about a guy (as you said - job, company, education etc) , so this type of investigation is not always necessary. Its just women from russia are not always capable to "read" it correctly. And some guys do not encourage conversations on these matters.  My point is - there is enough interest to this matter and if women can not talk directly to their men, they will find other ways.

[ML]

Its just a different system and it works, at least for small countries like those in Scandinavia with a socialist tradition. The focus here is not on how much you earn, its on quality of life and egalitarianism.

I understand, and important to emphasize your words 'works, at least for . . . .'

Point being, this may not work for all countries.

For instance, your country is mostly very homogeneous (yes, I know you take in some refugees, etc.) and not nearly as diverse as USA.  Your fellow citizens have a certain work ethic, value of education, etc., etc., that simply does not exist for large and growing proportions of USA citizens.  Here, we have many who have a heritage as takers from the common pot and a shrinking number who have a heritage as givers to the common pot.   Note:  I am not talking about the aging of the population situation; but rather about working age people.

[Donna_Pedro]

Gator,
Are you kidding me?

Just a little observation here. I happened to meet Gator's first russian wife. And let me tell you -  this is completely different class of girls that  he is after. Not your regular Mashas and Lenas from Lugansk or Kharkiv. And when I say class, I do not mean just beauty, or better yet, not mainly beauty. Its level, class - behavior, manners, upbringing, level of self-esteem etc. I suspect his second attempt is the same way. And I am actually very eager to see her when she arrives. Seriously, i suspect that neither you nor anybody else (me included) have any idea what we are talking about here.

[acctBill]

I understand, and important to emphasize your words 'works, at least for . . . .'

Point being, this may not work for all countries.

For instance, your country is mostly very homogeneous (yes, I know you take in some refugees, etc.) and not nearly as diverse as USA.  Your fellow citizens have a certain work ethic, value of education, etc., etc., that simply does not exist for large and growing proportions of USA citizens.  Here, we have many who have a heritage as takers from the common pot and a shrinking number who have a heritage as givers to the common pot.   Note:  I am not talking about the aging of the population situation; but rather about working age people.

ML have you been to Sweden?  Great country to vacation in, incredible scenery, great economy and far more diverse than you would believe. 

According to Eurostat, in 2010, there were 1.33 million foreign-born residents in Sweden, corresponding to 14.3% of the total population. Of these, 859 000 (9.2%) were born outside the EU and 477 000 (5.1%) were born in another EU Member State.^{[145][146] [147]} In 2009, immigration reached its highest level since records began with 102,280 people emigrating to Sweden.^[148] Immigrants in Sweden are mostly concentrated in the urban areas of Svealand and Götaland.^[147] Since the early 1970s, immigration to Sweden has been mostly due to refugee migration and family reunification from countries in the Middle East, Africa and Latin America.^[149]
The largest groups in 2010 were:^[147]
 

• Finland (172,218)
• Former Yugoslavia (152,268)
• Iraq (117,919)
• Poland (67,518)
• Iran (59,922)
• Germany (47,803)
• Denmark (46,002)
• Norway (43,819)
• Turkey (40,766)
• Somalia (31,734)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#Immigration

Take a look at some of the totals and remember that this is a country with a population of under 10 million people.  To be as diverse as Sweden the US would have to be taking in 30 times as many people.  Look at where the migrants settling in Sweden are mostly coming from: the Middle East, Latin America and Africa not exactly a homogenous grouping. 

In 2009 Sweden took in 102,280 people to be comparable to Sweden the US would have had to take in well over 3 million people.  I seriously doubt that the US took in over 3 million immigrants in 2009. 

[pitbull]

Just a little observation here. I happened to meet Gator's first russian wife. And let me tell you -  this is completely different class of girls that  he is after. Not your regular Mashas and Lenas from Lugansk or Kharkiv. And when I say class, I do not mean just beauty, or better yet, not mainly beauty. Its level, class - behavior, manners, upbringing, level of self-esteem etc. I suspect his second attempt is the same way. And I am actually very eager to see her when she arrives. Seriously, i suspect that neither you nor anybody else (me included) have any idea what we are talking about here.

I am just going by Gator's own words in how he describes the situation in his post. Don't think I misunderstood anything due to poor English or some such. If there is a misunderstanding, nobody has pointed this out to me yet.

In any case, certain behaviours are incompatible with "level and class" in my book.

[pitbull]

 I do not give advice on whom to marry or not marry. I merely  help to investigate a person's financial situation and explain what life style it might translate to.  Decision is not mine to make. Of course this information  is not full and can not be taken at a 100% face value. Also, there is usually more info available about a guy (as you said - job, company, education etc) , so this type of investigation is not always necessary. Its just women from russia are not always capable to "read" it correctly. And some guys do not encourage conversations on these matters.  My point is - there is enough interest to this matter and if women can not talk directly to their men, they will find other ways.

From my experience education, job, company etc. is the information usually exchanged freely during the initial stages of communication. If a man omits this information and/or doesn't answer direct questions pertaining to it - it's a huge red flag in my book.

[Donna_Pedro]

From my experience education, job, company etc. is the information usually exchanged freely during the initial stages of communication. If a man omits this information and/or doesn't answer direct questions pertaining to it - it's a huge red flag in my book.

See, this is not always straightforward. Say a guy says he has BS in EE and works for, say, Shevron.  There are literally  dozens of variations here: a guy could be anywhere between your regular start up engineer at $55K a year to a VP of engineering with $500K+stock options and other perks. In both cases they are both engineers working for the same company. Even the similar-named positions can pay radically different depending on a division, experience, company, in some cases the school you graduated from etc, so a senior engineer position could pay  $65K or $140K. A lot of other details here too. I have worked as an accountant for a few companies, so I know how it works. Anyway, if you know that your particular engineer  also has a $500K property  in a prestigious  area, it  could help you to understand the overall  situation a little better. Of course as ML said before - liabilities are important too.

[GQBlues]

ML have you been to Sweden?  Great country to vacation in, incredible scenery, great economy and far more diverse than you would believe...

 

Statistics.
 
AcctBill-
 

Since the early 1970s, immigration to Sweden has been mostly due to refugee migration and family reunification from countries in the Middle East, Africa and Latin America.^[149] The largest groups in 2010 were:^[147]

If 1970 is the baseline, then I'll submit the count of folks granted permanent residence to the US since 1970 to 2010 = 31,610,035. Country grouping is shown in citation below.
 

In 2009 Sweden took in 102,280 people to be comparable to Sweden the US would have had to take in well over 3 million people.  I seriously doubt that the US took in over 3 million immigrants in 2009.

Wow! Very impressive! 102,280. Nope the US granted PR to roughly 1.144 million that year. Of course that's not counting actual count of immigrants, legal or otherwise.
 
Estimates of illegal immigrants hover anywhere between 7-20 million, or roughly far more than the entire population of Sweden plus a few more countries to boot.
 
Foreign born. 33 million at last count. Comparable to Canada's entire population. Or a little over 3 times Sweden's total population. But even that's an oxymoron if you consider the US is a country of immigrants whereas Sweden is really not.
 
But methinks you missed ML's point if you consider economic impacts all these immigration, legal or otherwise, is taken into account.
Anyway, I agree with you. Sweden is a beautiful country.
 
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2010/ois_yb_2010.pdf
http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/foreignborn.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States

[pitbull]

See, this is not always straightforward. Say a guy says he has BS in EE and works for, say, Shevron.  There are literally  dozens of variations here: a guy could be anywhere between your regular start up engineer at $55K a year to a VP of engineering with $500K+stock options and other perks. In both cases they are both engineers working for the same company. Even the similar-named positions can pay radically different depending on a division, experience, company, in some cases the school you graduated from etc, so a senior engineer position could pay  $65K or $140K. A lot of other details here too. I have worked as an accountant for a few companies, so I know how it works. Anyway, if you know that your particular engineer  also has a $500K property  in a prestigious  area, it  could help you to understand the overall  situation a little better. Of course as ML said before - liabilities are important too.

I was talking about getting a general picture. Also, assuming the AM shares the job position. But of course many RW won't know what this translates into. If you provide that much detail, your service is quite valuable. Especially if free of charge 

[OlgaH]

That was a nasty thing to say. 


What I wrote about the daughter and gifts could be interpreted in different ways dependent upon one's outlook.  You chose the negative path rather than the positive one.  You continued to do so even after I affirmed that the daughter's character is good.


Ranetka showed some class by accepting my statement.  You did not.

Gator, what I said is a popular saying in Russia  I said it in general but if you tried to apply it to the daughter or whoever, you probably had a reason for it 

Regarding some class, you and I most likely have different understanding of "class", and while you probably think that "accepting expensive gifts from a married man and occasionally going to dinner with him" is a "class", sorry, I don't think so, and I also think that it is not so classy to discuss a "financial help or aid" and more over to ask for it from a man with whom you are barely in relationship and the future together is not clear. Charity, of course, is different issue.   

In any case, certain behaviours are incompatible with "level and class" in my book.

+1

[acctBill]

 
If 1970 is the baseline, then I'll submit the count of folks granted permanent residence to the US since 1970 to 2010 = 31,610,035. Country grouping is shown in citation below.
 
Wow! Very impressive! 102,280. Nope the US granted PR to roughly 1.144 million that year. Of course that's not counting actual count of immigrants, legal or otherwise.
 
Estimates of illegal immigrants hover anywhere between 7-20 million, or roughly far more than the entire population of Sweden plus a few more countries to boot.
 
Foreign born. 33 million at last count. Comparable to Canada's entire population. Or a little over 3 times Sweden's total population. But even that's an oxymoron if you consider the US is a country of immigrants whereas Sweden is really not.
 
But methinks you missed ML's point if you consider economic impacts all these immigration, legal or otherwise, is taken into account.
Anyway, I agree with you. Sweden is a beautiful country.
 
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/yearbook/2010/ois_yb_2010.pdf
http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/foreignborn.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States

GQBlues I think you missed the point.  The population of the US is about 310 million, Sweden about 10 million, the US has 31 times as many people therefore to do a statistically relevant comparison it is necessary to multiply the figures for Sweden by 31.  Therefore for an accurate comparison multiply Sweden's total immigration of 102,280 for 2009 by 31 for a total 3,170,680 or almost 3 times the figure for the US.

The comment of Sweden's more recent influx of non EU immigrants is also relevant.  Sweden has received these immigrants over the last couple of decades or so and has had to quickly adjust government policies, laws, etc to help the new immigrants blend into Swedish society. 

The US has had centuries to learn from the immigrant experience since as you stated the US is a country of immigrants.  Of course if, again using a statistically relevant comparison, you multiply Sweden's foreign born citizens - 1,330,000 by 31 you get 41,230,000 foreign born in Sweden. 

To put it in percentages about 10% of America is foreign born - 31,610,035 foreign born / US population 310,000,000 =  about 10.2%, for Sweden 1,330,000 foreign born / Sweden population 10,000,000 = about 13.3%.  Which country has a larger foreign born percentage of their population?     

[OlgaH]

In my experience with family members who died of cancer, they were quite sick for a long time and they were not simply diagnosed out of the blue with terminal cancer.

My grandfather was diagnosed with terminal cancer. It was too late and the doctors were very honest about it as they said that if even he survived the surgery it would give him just a couple months of more suffering. The morphine was free for him.

[GQBlues]

GQBlues I think you missed the point.....

Yes..if you single out the year where Sweden experienced the highest level of immigration. What is the total number of immigrants of Sweden since 1970? Including illegal immigrants, if any, again? Now if you factor in all foreign born nationals in the US that DIDN't have ancestral roots who shot arrows to kill buffaloes...than what you have is the US.
 
Key into both countries' ethnic makeshift:
 
http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/demographics_profile.html
 
http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/demographics_profile.html
 
To make than even more interesting for you, where the US definition of 'white' covers peoples of 'white complexion' which would include the overall classification of Sweden's indigenous peoples amongst others and then some..
 
 
But have it your way acctbill, but let me close and just simply direct you to your original post where you used ML's quote. Especially the part that started with..."For instance...", then factor in the actual subject of his discussion with Jeff and the overall gist of the exchanges relative to the current standard of living of these respective countries...

[pitbull]

You might not feel insulted, it is a clear compliment about russian culture and the superiority of east culture to handle this sort of things. It doesn't mean that you are less sensitive, it means that your society handles better this difficult time in life. I have also find the same in mueslim countries. And please because i speak about mueslims don't imagine i'm putting beside those two societies. Thank.

Interesting, my observations of the two cultures (FSU and USA) regarding death of close people have been directly opposite. Death of a dear one is of course a tragedy universally. However, I believe religious people (and an overwhelming part of the American society is religious or at least spiritual) have this deeply seated conviction that their beloved ones are in a better place now and one day they will all meet and be together forever. The funerals in the US are rather a celebration of life, not a grieving with lots of crying like they are in FSU. The FSU society is still largerly atheist and agnostic. For non-religious person, the realization that you will NEVER see the person you loved dearly again, that this is really the End, makes the experience so much more tragic and unacceptable.

[OlgaH]

The RM are giving them gifts too.  I see this in my lady's 22-yo daughter...

Being a remarkable beauty, she has been detected by the radar of the wealthy RM.  One RM has showered expensive gifts (fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc.) on her.  She accepts them and gives him nothing in return other than a smile and a spasibo.  One reason - he is married and has a young child. 

He continues to pursue her, and she will occasionally go to dinner with him.  He has told her it would be only about sex, and has offered a shopping trip to Italy or Abu Dhabi, to which she says "No."

 Seriously, Gator? Occasionally goes out with a married wealthy man who has a small child and accepts expensive gifts from him? Sounds like you at least don't know the whole story. Really wealthy RM usually don't waste money like that, they expect and demand certain favors in return.
 

Pitbull, I bet my two kopeks that the whole story would be his wife has been assisting him in his sexual pursuing helping him to choose fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc. and also making restaurant reservations 


 

[Donna_Pedro]

Pitbull, I bet my two kopeks that the whole story would be his wife has been assisting him in his sexual pursuing helping him to choose fine fur coat, diamond bracelet, etc. and also making restaurant reservations 

and this is a prime example of being classy. Not.

[OlgaH]

and this is a prime example of being classy. Not.

Such classy assisting wife would be a dream for some rich men and not rich too 

[Ade]

I am just going by Gator's own words in how he describes the situation in his post. Don't think I misunderstood anything due to poor English or some such. If there is a misunderstanding, nobody has pointed this out to me yet.

In any case, certain behaviours are incompatible with "level and class" in my book.

Yes, I agree. I certainly must have a different definition of "class"; in my world, it's not considered classy to lead men on and make a material gain off of them when they have no hope of ever being considered. That those men are "worthy" or "scumbags or not is irrelevant and any woman that actively or passively condones such behaviour is in the same "class".  Seems like some men have a problem with hypocrisy.
 

[Ade]

I was talking about getting a general picture. Also, assuming the AM shares the job position. But of course many RW won't know what this translates into. If you provide that much detail, your service is quite valuable. Especially if free of charge 

If a woman needs that sort of detailed information about her "love" interest, I'd say there are either issues on his side or hers and from where I'm sitting, it's a "relationship" that shouldn't going anywhere anyway.

As for DP's "digging". Some RW do that on forums in Norway too.  Misleading information is worse than no information at all, and like I said, if a woman needs this kind of information there are other problems that shouldn't be ignored.

[Ade]

Our spat was between us

Dude, I have no axe to grind with you. I disagree somewhat with what you say on occasion for various reasons. I certainly don't put you on the pedestal of FSU wisdom like some here seem to; in fact, quite the opposite, and your flexible definitions and rather slippery twisting with regards to your stepdaughter to be only strengthens my conviction that people should be skeptical of your advice. You've been around a long time, have had many failed relationships with FSUW and still you defend bad behaviour when it suits you. Will you ever learn?

and I asked you to not bring women into this. Instead, you went even harder at women.

What are you talking about? You think DP is offended? I call crocodile tears if she claims she is. And your Cossack daughter? You think she cares one whit about some dude on an internet forum? I'd say that if she has no problem adjusting her "class" to accept gifts like you say, then I think not. Women are not above criticism with me, and I treat them as equals not wilting blossoms needing to be treated with kid gloves. That is a sign of respect, if you don't get that, I don't know any way to make you understand.

I too could add 1/2    1 and get -5    as you did with my future stepdaughter.  But I don't do those things. First, I endeavor to be fair and analytical.  Second, I try to be a gentleman, although I fail sometimes

Get off your "I'm a gentleman" high horse, I'm not buying into the hype. Either you are fair and analytical or you are not. What you've done is describe behaviour which is, by most people's understating, no different than the behaviour of pro-daters and good time girls. You're not being particularly objective here I think, and I suspect it's because your house of cards may wobble if you accept that your Cossack and her daughter may not be as "classy" as you've lead yourself to believe. Perhaps that wouldn't be such a bad thing before you get to #4?
 
 

All of the above is about me.  Let's forget that and look at another point. 
To call a female member of RWD a prostitute is indeed loathsome if not malicious.  So besides agreeing with Pitbull, you should agree that you are not a gentleman, as if you cared.  BTW, a prostitute is not paid for sex but paid to leave after sex.  In this case she stayed, for 10 years, and still staying by his side.

Although I did not use that word precisely, look up the definition of "prostitution". Giving up sex for material gain sums it up. If a relationship is primarily focused on a woman giving up sex to a man for his lifestyle, yes, it's as close to prostitution as damn it, even if it's a legal marriage. Sponsorship is no different, except that perhaps it's more honest.

[Patagonie]

You forgot one thing - DP has spent 10 years living in the west, and even has extensive experience making  debts on her own and together with her hubby.  So please, please dont tell me that $50K salary and $50K debts is nothing in the west.  Even  in theory
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/tools/modebtratio.htm
Your debt-to-income ratio
36% or less: This is a healthy debt load to carry for most people.37%-42%: Not bad, but start paring debt now before you get in real trouble.
43%-49%: Financial difficulties are probably imminent unless you take immediate action.
50% or more: Get professional help to aggressively reduce debt.

After living here for 10 years, I can tell you that  $50K is nothing without debts and liabilities. Not for me anyway.

I have already tell you that you are involved in a richer life and you believe from Moscow that is the normal life. So all your understanding is shifted.
It's time to consider some basical economical informations, and to look around you, just look to understand people and what is poverty, what is median income, what is middle class (when such category exists).
About the 50k $ as single, in my country he is on top 10% earner as single, and i repeat 38000 euros of debt are nothing, with such amount you cannot buy any real estate. Generally such people get easily more than 120k euros (EUROS !). Your debt to income ration doesn't mean nothing because we are not knowin total duration of the loan or of the mortage. It can be low ift the loan had been got on 10 years (12-14 % with interest rate).

So this guy for any local woman is a good catch and for an FSU woman he can be a catch. (as i have explained previously better to start with 70-80k $ to such adventure, in my opinion)

So really don't help to "read" people. Now if you help your friends to filter liars because an FSU woman mustn't take bigs risks for a non steady guy, whom will not be able in the future to support a woman for a decent life, no problems., i would do the same around me to help any fsu i like.

But obviously your reading grid is totally shifted.

Others OPs here have tried to give you some clues to let FSU women understand that things are really more complicated and there are others factors which are importants for a family, rather than the total wages/assets.
 
When you have built your life and have a good understanding of the world your values change gradually in west and you grant wealth not necessary according to the actual values capitalist system.

[Misha]

And let me tell you -  this is completely different class of girls that  he is after. Not your regular Mashas and Lenas from Lugansk or Kharkiv. And when I say class, I do not mean just beauty, or better yet, not mainly beauty.

Let's see, she was from Moscow, you are from Moscow, so let me guess class = Muscovite 

[Patagonie]

Let's see, she was from Moscow, you are from Moscow, so let me guess class = Muscovite 

May i have one also ?