How to get started when it comes to looking for an Ukrainian woman?

[Donna_Pedro]

The other thing in my opin ion as he is much older he should have had much more brains then them.

Brains? Hmmmm... Thats what men are looking at these days.    Imagine this: there are nice and shiny 2012 Mercedeses on sale,  and you want him to buy an old dusty Ford taurus stating that a lot of milage is very attractive?   

[JR]

Brains? Hmmmm... Thats what men are looking at these days.    Imagine this: there are nice and shiny 2012 Mercedeses on sale,  and you want him to buy an old dusty Ford taurus stating that a lot of milage is very attractive?   

Brains? BAH, highly over-rated, testosterone is far more useful!!!
 
50 into 22-25...you do the math))) And now we know the whole story, LOL!

[Hughtheo]

It would also give you a better understanding of how "easy" it is to get a "basic grip" of a foreign language language in just three months.    You will be surprised.

Ranetka, I will take the advice to learn Russian seriously. I cannot imagine being married to someone and not understanding what she might be saying to our children. But that is another topic for another thread.

As a linguist, I know that the basics of English are comparatively simple. Unlike the very complex Russian language, English has one article THE, does not bother with declinations, prepositions do not impact on the object of a sentence, the past tense has a simple formula, etc.

The only trouble with English is the incredibly vast vocabulary. But that should not prevent anyone from getting the basics right.

If I were serious about meeting a partner from abroad (most likely an English-speaking country) then I would make a concerted effort to speak English. Girls who are too lazy to do that will always lose out to others who have made the effort.

In marketing terms, you increase your value. Tight jeans and cleavage go a long way but if a girl can communicate in the language of the man she wants to be with, she is more than half way there.

[Hughtheo]

To be more precise, the women on the site you were using would have accepted you in any shape or form....


Do as ML suggested, go create a profile on singles.ru or a similar free site and write to the type of women you were writing on mypartnerforever. I expect that the response rate will be much, much lower as you will be dealing with real women (with few exceptions) without an agenda.

Thanks Misha. I found ML's comments the most useful and he is right. The whole enterprise of searching, finding and getting a woman from the FSU must be planned like a military campaign.

I am particularly grateful for the websites ML has mentioned which are just websites without agencies. In the past, I have been on www.loveme.com, on www.mypartnerforever.com and on www.veronikalove.com.  Maybe not the best of places to start looking for a REAL woman without a second agenda.

[Hughtheo]

You are 50 years old. You choose to meet someone less than half your age for a purpose of marry. I am sorry but this is not a poor planning etc, this is just unreasonable.
 
You had to go to Odessa to understand you are too old for 22 years old?????

Apparently, I did have to go to Odessa to understand that a 22-year old, however clued on and mature she was, would not be the best match for me. 

The reason might not have been the age difference.

I still believe that if a 22-year old woman wants to be with me and I want to be with her, who is to say we are wrong?

[Hughtheo]

About the age difference --

Those girls certainly didnt think so, why should he? He feels that they "would have accepted him in any shape or form, blind, cripplied, both legs missing". Why in the world should  he date, say, a 45 yo if 25 yos are lining up ready "to go forward at any cost"???? So, the fault (if there is any) is not entirely his. To put it mildly.

Thank you for that. I mean it.

I've had enough criticism from family and friends and thought on RWD I would be spared the tiresome debate about the age difference.

[Nat]

As a linguist, I know that the basics of English are comparatively simple. Unlike the very complex Russian language, English has one article THE, does not bother with declinations, prepositions do not impact on the object of a sentence, the past tense has a simple formula, etc.

Excuse me, as a linguist you should know that there are 6 past tenses in English (whereas we have only 2), let alone passive forms and weird constructions like "used to", "would have done" etc. You have fixed word order, which is very difficult for a Russian person, because we put words however we like. I don't even mention reading rules or the fact that the same word can mean a lot of things, like "well" - which is the adverb from "good" and a hole with water English IS difficult, and being a teacher of English, I'd never ever assure anybody that they can learn basics in 3 months. Phrases like "Could you help me?" or "How can I get to the station?" - absolutely, but ability to participate in a normal conversation - no way.
No, of course if a person leaves her job and does nothing but learn English all the day long... then it's possible. Are you willing to sponsor that?

[Hughtheo]

Excuse me, as a linguist you should know that there are 6 past tenses in English (whereas we have only 2), let alone passive forms and weird constructions like "used to", "would have done" etc. You have fixed word order, which is very difficult for a Russian person, because we put words however we like. I don't even mention reading rules or the fact that the same word can mean a lot of things, like "well" - which is the adverb from "good" and a hole with water English IS difficult, and being a teacher of English, I'd never ever assure anybody that they can learn basics in 3 months. Phrases like "Could you help me?" or "How can I get to the station?" - absolutely, but ability to participate in a normal conversation - no way.
No, of course if a person leaves her job and does nothing but learn English all the day long... then it's possible. Are you willing to sponsor that?

Nat, I don't know Russian so I can't compare it to English. I do know German and French and I still believe that English is comparatively simple to learn. One reason is that English is the lingua franca promoted in the cinema, in advertising, on the web, etc. Even people who have no interest in languages are constantly exposed to English phrases and terminology. It's not that tricky to pick up the essentials.

Then again -  and I do sponsor that - making a jump from a Slavic language like Russian to speaking a Germanic language like English probably is something of a challenge for some. I agree.

BTW, English has 12 tenses, not 6. Three simple tenses, three perfect tenses, six progressive forms. 

[Ade]

About the age difference --

Thank you for that. I mean it.

I've had enough criticism from family and friends and thought on RWD I would be spared the tiresome debate about the age difference.

Well, there are usually very good reasons why extreme age differences raise quite a kerfuffle on these types of forums. There are those that say that it matters not one whit; I guess you are one of those. I think that most people that have been around for a while and witnessed or heard about the very many train wrecks (or just have some plain common sense), understand that relationships with exceptionally large age gaps that work for an extended amount of time are very rare indeed. Even those "success stories" that seem to have had it made, and there have been a few, tend to crash and burn within 10 years.

However, and more importantly, it is far more likely that the 20-somethings that seem to be interested in old goats like yourself are just scammers, good time girls and/or only interested in a passport. At the very least, 22 year old women truly interested in 50 year old men probably have weird daddy issues and should be looking for a psychologist rather than a husband/father-figure to bonk.

FWIW, my wife is 13 years my junior and I met her when she was 29. Even this age gap made me pause and discuss this with her on more than a few occasions. As it turns out, I'm somewhat of a big kid so it worked out rather well for us. How about you? Do you see yourself entertaining her 20-something friends at your place? Going out to the odd rock concert or bar of an evening? And what about when she starts to really hit her stride in her 30's and you are entering into old age? What do you think is going to happen then exactly?

[Hughtheo]

Well, there are usually very good reasons why extreme age differences raise quite a kerfuffle on these types of forums. There are those that say that it matters not one whit; I guess you are one of those. I think that most people that have been around for a while and witnessed or heard about the very many train wrecks (or just have some plain common sense), understand that relationships with exceptionally large age gaps that work for an extended amount of time are very rare indeed. Even those "success stories" that seem to have had it made, and there have been a few, tend to crash and burn within 10 years.

However, and more importantly, it is far more likely that the 20-somethings that seem to be interested in old goats like yourself are just scammers, good time girls and/or only interested in a passport. At the very least, 22 year old women truly interested in 50 year old men probably have weird daddy issues and should be looking for a psychologist rather than a husband/father-figure to bonk.

FWIW, my wife is 13 years my junior and I met her when she was 29. Even this age gap made me pause and discuss this with her on more than a few occasions. As it turns out, I'm somewhat of a big kid so it worked out rather well for us. How about you? Do you see yourself entertaining her 20-something friends at your place? Going out to the odd rock concert or bar of an evening? And what about when she starts to really hit her stride in her 30's and you are entering into old age? What do you think is going to happen then exactly?

Ade, I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Perhaps it took me a trip to Odessa and meeting up with a 22-year old to realise that I got caught up in the completely wrong idea of wanting someone less than half my age. 

And yes, it made me question the girl’s true motives. Daddy issues might have been her drive to meet up with me. Then again, she could have gotten dozens of middle-aged Ukrainian men with the greatest of ease if a father figure were her only desire.

So it leaves scammers, good time girls and passport seekers. None of them appeals to me. I agree that I should be more grown up in my approach and consider how everyday life with a 20-something would be like, the social implications, future outlook in 10 or 20 years time, the whole package.

Just like you, I probably am a big kid and quite into sports, never married, no children. My girlfriends have always been 10 years younger than me, or more. But when it comes to planning a family, I should be more considerate. And I will. I’m pleased to hear that you are in a happy relationship with your Russian wife 13 years your junior.

At any rate, thank you for your very fair comments without getting personal. Even the “old goat” I’ll take in my stride.

[Ade]

Ade, I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Perhaps it took me a trip to Odessa and meeting up with a 22-year old to realise that I got caught up in the completely wrong idea of wanting someone less than half my age. 

And yes, it made me question the girl’s true motives. Daddy issues might have been her drive to meet up with me. Then again, she could have gotten dozens of middle-aged Ukrainian men with the greatest of ease if a father figure was her only desire.

So it leaves scammers, good time girls and passport seekers. None of them appeals to me. I agree that I should be more grown up in my approach, think of how everyday life with a 20-something would be like, the social implications, future outlook in 10 or 20 years time, the whole package.

Just like you, I probably am a big kid and quite into sports, never married, no children. My girlfriends have always been 10 years younger than me, or more. But when it comes to planning a family, I should be more considerate. And I will. I’m pleased to hear that you are in a happy relationship with your Russian wife 13 years your junior.

At any rate, thank you for your very fair comments without getting personal. Even the “old goat” I’ll take in my stride.

I'm happy for you that you've learned a valuable lesson from your trip; there have been more than a few that have been bitten by the madness bug and never seem to learn. The hardest thing seems to be for guys to be brutally honest with themselves.

If I were you, I'd restrict the age disparity to 15 years or less. There are very many attractive women in this age range. Of course if you want to have your own children, you're going to have to look to younger than 40 - even if you hit it off quite quickly it'll probably take a couple of years at least before she is settled into your house and ready for baby-making - so if she's over 40 when you meet, baby-making may be a less than viable option.

And, FWIW, altough I have no direct experience of Ukraine, there seems to be a lot of talk of scammers in and around Odessa and Kiev, far more than I've heard of from Russia. So you may want to try your luck there instead. Visas are a doddle and not expensive, but admittedly a pita.

And yes, my wife is Russian; we'll have been married for 3 years in this coming summer.

[Hughtheo]

And, FWIW, altough I have no direct experience of Ukraine, there seems to be a lot of talk of scammers in and around Odessa and Kiev, far more than I've heard of from Russia. So you may want to try your luck there instead. Visas are a doddle and not expensive, but admittedly a pita.

The only reason for me to prefer Ukraine to Russia is easy access for EU citizens. All I need is my British passport to get to Ukraine. A few years ago, I've been to a wedding in St Petersburg and the process of getting a visa for Russia was quite something. As Norwegian and non-EU member, do you need a visa for Ukraine?

About scammers. I guess you can find girls who want to take Western men to the cleaners in any Ukrainian or Russian city which is a tour destination for men searching for a woman. The iron rule is never to part with cash or get lured into buying expensive presents.

[Misha]

Nat, I don't know Russian so I can't compare it to English. I do know German and French and I still believe that English is comparatively simple to learn. One reason is that English is the lingua franca promoted in the cinema, in advertising, on the web, etc. Even people who have no interest in languages are constantly exposed to English phrases and terminology. It's not that tricky to pick up the essentials.

I can only speak from experience. My wife knew zero English (she had studied German). Picking up the essentials was a horrendous chore and learning the more complex grammar even more so. As a linguist, you should know that as children we learn our language's phonemes and ignore the rest. Once you are past adolescence, it becomes extremely difficult to learn how to articulate new phonemes and a challenge to train the brain to hear and distinguish new phonemes. This alone takes time and effort. Then, there are the differences in verb usage and tenses as well the articles and a host of other syntactic and semantic differences that must be learned, and we have yet learned any vocabulary. Take the simple fact that the present tense of the verb "to be" is not used in Russian. Just to get into the habit of saying "he is" "she is" is a task in itself... If you think that most women who are adults and have never studied English can just pick it up in a few months, IMHO you are being overly optimistic...

[Donna_Pedro]

the social implications,

Glad that you have mentioned it. "Russian wife" as it is has a bad stigma.  On several occasions me and my husband have received curious looks and "funny comments" from people, when they learnt that I was from Russia. And this was with me being only 6 years younger than my husband.  It depends on your cultural environment of course, but  if you have a good position in your company and have an "image" to maintain, a 22 yo wife from Ukraine may contribute to it  a rather bad flavor.

[Ade]

The only reason for me to prefer Ukraine to Russia is easy access for EU citizens. All I need is my British passport to get to Ukraine. A few years ago, I've been to a wedding in St Petersburg and the process of getting a visa for Russia was quite something. As Norwegian and non-EU member, do you need a visa for Ukraine?

I'm from South Wales originally; I've been out of the country for 20 years or so now though and currently we live in Norway (and will likely stay here).

Yes, walking into Ukraine is easy. And yes, you tend to find what you seek in general, however, on another forum similar to this there was a poll and it seemed to indicate that although most men look for women in Ukraine, the majority of men that were married, were married to Russians. Take from that small sample what you will.

As for visas. It's a small pain now; invitations can be had on the net, 1 form, a few pics and a little money will then get you a visa. If you think that is an insurmountable hurdle, just wait until you get to the family reunion/fiancee visa paperwork stage as it's a beaut. 

About scammers. I guess you can find girls who want to take Western men to the cleaners in any Ukrainian or Russian city which is a tour destination for men searching for a woman. The iron rule is never to part with cash or get lured into buying expensive presents.

Yes, but cash and presents is only part of the story and, to be frank, those are the easiest scams to avoid.

[Hughtheo]

I can only speak from experience. My wife knew zero English (she had studied German). Picking up the essentials was a horrendous chore and learning the more complex grammar even more so. As a linguist, you should know that as children we learn our language's phonemes and ignore the rest. Once you are past adolescence, it becomes extremely difficult to learn how to articulate new phonemes and a challenge to train the brain to hear and distinguish new phonemes. This alone takes time and effort. Then, there are the differences in verb usage and tenses as well the articles and a host of other syntactic and semantic differences that must be learned, and we have yet learned any vocabulary. Take the simple fact that the present tense of the verb "to be" is not used in Russian. Just to get into the habit of saying "he is" "she is" is a task in itself... If you think that most women who are adults and have never studied English can just pick it up in a few months, IMHO you are being overly optimistic...

Misha, I really do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on whether, or not, English is difficult to learn. Just from reading your post you make it sound as if the doors of language acquisiton are almost being closed after adolescence.

"Once you are past adolescence, it becomes extremely difficult to learn how to articulate new phonemes and a challenge to train the brain to hear and distinguish new phonemes."

That is not quite true. The fact is that English is constantly on the radio and in pop songs, in films, in manuals and in advertising trains the brain without making a deliberate effort. People all over the Western World are exposed to audible snippets of English, even if they don't understand it in full, more often than not they can sing along to the tune and the lyrics. And English is not a language in which words take on a completely different meaning when the intonation changes, like is the case with Mandarin Chinese.

I might have been too hopeful when I thought that the ladies I met could pick it up in three months, I agree to that. But it is not as if they were taking on ancient Aramaic or the Aztec language N'ahuatl with absolutely no references to present day life.

Please let this be the last on this topic.
Here is some popcorn as peace offering.
 

[ghost of moon goddess]

The only reason for me to prefer Ukraine to Russia is easy access for EU citizens. All I need is my British passport to get to Ukraine.

Hiya!

The second argument in favour of UW is that it will not take as long for UW to understand British culture and to appreciate British humour 

Good luck to you!!!!!

[Gator]

The second argument in favour of UW is that it will not take as long for UW to understand British culture and to appreciate British humour 

Interesting comment and it goes over my head.  I knew many UW and RW,  and I did not detect a difference in humor between the two.   However, my observations skills are limited because I speak little Russian. 

I am American yet I have had long exposure to British culture, and do appreciate British humor.

Please enlighten me about UW and humor.
 
 

[Misha]

Misha, I really do not want to get into a lengthy discussion on whether, or not, English is difficult to learn. Just from reading your post you make it sound as if the doors of language acquisiton are almost being closed after adolescence.

"Once you are past adolescence, it becomes extremely difficult to learn how to articulate new phonemes and a challenge to train the brain to hear and distinguish new phonemes."

That is not quite true. The fact is that English is constantly on the radio and in pop songs, in films, in manuals and in advertising trains the brain without making a deliberate effort.

English in manuals?!? Sorry to burst your bubble, but my wife in Russia used an English-only software program. Do you think it helped her?!? Not at all. She simply recognized all the words she needed to know visually, but hadn't the foggiest how those words should be pronounced and much less the grammar.


As for English being constantly on the radio and in pop songs, this is also an extreme exaggeration when talking about Russia. Russia has a thriving music industry, always had, and most Russian radio stations will play mainly Russian music. In recent years, the fad was techno which of course will give you pretty much zero when it comes to exposure to the English language. 

People all over the Western World are exposed to audible snippets of English, even if they don't understand it in full, more often than not they can sing along to the tune and the lyrics. And English is not a language in which words take on a completely different meaning when the intonation changes, like is the case with Mandarin Chinese.

How many Russian women have you helped from zero to fluency? And, by zero, I mean a woman who never studied English and was already an adult. I have, and I can tell you that it involved more than a fair share of tears and frustration and years of effort. Realistically, to go from zero to being capable of to graduating from university in English, it will often take a decade-or-so based on my interaction with more than a few RW here in Canada. Of course, if a woman has studied some English in Russia, already has some vocabulary and has an inkling of grammar, it will take less time. But, even then, it will often take years before she reaches a high enough level of English for her to work in a white-collar or professional job.

I might have been too hopeful when I thought that the ladies I met could pick it up in three months, I agree to that. But it is not as if they were taking on ancient Aramaic or the Aztec language N'ahuatl with absolutely no references to present day life.

It still takes time. Yes, you may luck out and marry a woman who has a hidden talent for languages, but are you ready to spend up to a decade helping a woman who has zero English skills gain native fluency?

[Donna_Pedro]

How many Russian women have you helped from zero to fluency?

Both of you have you have valid points. You can discuss it until cows come home, but since fluency seems to be a problem for this guy,  he needs to  pick candidates who already speak good english.
In general, this process is lengthy, very risky and costly, so it makes sense to learn how one could increase his chances for success. And chances for success would be higher if he picks a woman closer to his age who can already speak good english,  and who is not very motivated to get out of the country.   Thats all.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Interesting comment and it goes over my head.... 
Please enlighten me about UW and humor.
 
 

A joke explained is a joke disdained 

[Misha]

And chances for success would be higher if he picks a woman closer to his age who can already speak good english,  and who is not very motivated to get out of the country.   Thats all.

I agree. My intent is to point out that the process is not easy. If he expects to find a woman who will learn English in a few months with little stress, he risks getting a very, very, VERY rude awakening even if he does succeed in finding a woman... Men IMVHO should plan for the very worst case scenario, and be pleasantly surprised should it be easier than expected, than think it will be the cliched walk in the park 

[Nat]

BTW, English has 12 tenses, not 6. Three simple tenses, three perfect tenses, six progressive forms. 

When I said "6 past tenses", I meant:
Past Simple: I went to the cinema yesterday.
Past Continuous: When I was going to the cinema, it started raining.
Past Perfect Simple: When I came to the cinema, the movie had already started.
Past Perfect Continuous: When I came to the cinema, my friends had already been waiting for me for an hour.
Present Perfect Simple: I've just come to the cinema.
 Present Perfect Continuous: I've been waiting for you for an hour.
Yes, the last two are called "present", but they are past for a Russian person as they describe events which have already happened
So now you can see where the challenge is - in Russian that'd be 2 tenses.
Anyway, I agree with you completely that English is much easier than German of French. However, don't forget that any of these languages is totally strange for Russian, so it doesn't matter much
But actually, it's not really a problem because there are a lot of girls out there who already know English, so you don't have to wait until they learn it

[Faux Pas]

Ade, I cannot disagree with anything you have said. Perhaps it took me a trip to Odessa and meeting up with a 22-year old to realise that I got caught up in the completely wrong idea of wanting someone less than half my age. 

Just like you, I probably am a big kid and quite into sports, never married, no children. My girlfriends have always been 10 years younger than me, or more. But when it comes to planning a family, I should be more considerate. And I will. I’m pleased to hear that you are in a happy relationship with your Russian wife 13 years your junior.

At any rate, thank you for your very fair comments without getting personal. Even the “old goat” I’ll take in my stride.

Hughtheo

Just something for you to consider as you go about the process. The proverbial "kid in a candy store" is really prevalent among most men in this pursuit. Upgrading from one's usual dating abilities at home is relatively easy to do. So much so that many men get drunk on it.  Getting attention from a younger, more attractive and more educated woman than they would normally have a chance with in their own countries tends leave a blood rush to the penis and leaving the brain empty.


I caution you that you and any man searching, you are the same man in the FSU that you are at home. Keep that one invariable fact front and center. Stepping off of an airplane doesn't make one better looking, more youthful, more charming or endowed with a bigger schlong. It does however seem to make some more stupid.


There are plenty of young, attractive  hard body tarts in the West that will date and take advantage of an older man and usually with the same motives that they do it in the FSU. They are not more mature "for their age" or more family oriented. There are some very endearing qualities in these women not so prevalent back home. However, never lose sight of the fact that they are still women, the same gender you have at home that sent you looking elsewhere.


You appear to have a good head about you and I am sure you'll do fine. Good luck no matter what you decide.

[Hughtheo]

Hiya!

The second argument in favour of UW is that it will not take as long for UW to understand British culture and to appreciate British humour 

Good luck to you!!!!!

Thank you. I need all the luck I can get. And implement ML's meticulous planning skills.