FSU women and marriage regulations

[Viking456]

Had I the slightest inkling that a prenup was necessary... I wouldn't have married the girl in the first place.

About 50% of all marriages end in divorce. I'd bet quite a few of them didn't have an inkling that a prenup was necessary.

[Viking456]

Really? Who is to put the value on love?

Are you looking for love and a lifetime partner, or a roommate?

Your perspective is on your savings. Marriage with love involved is always 100-100, never 50-50. It is also a win-win equally for both.

Nobody, self included, said it would be fair for her to get what you've accumulated. If marriage was about fairness nobody would get married.

I'll repeat myself: She gives up job, family, home, country, culture, language, and everything she knows for which she has also invested a lot of time and energy to "bet the farm" that it works out long term while you are out the cost of travel and wedding expenses if things don't work out?

What is the value of the lifetime she has accumulated? I can see you have no idea nor have you thought of it.

If you are hoping that you can attract a woman based on supply and demand economics, then you'll get exactly what you're looking for.

Are you looking for love and a lifetime partner, or a roommate?

There's a high likelihood that she'd become a lifetime partner. There are no guarantees, since after all 50% of all marriages end up in divorce and few thought they would when they married. But looking at my sisters (much older than me) and my parents none of them has divorced and its fairly likely that I won't either.

Your perspective is on your savings. Marriage with love involved is always 100-100, never 50-50. It is also a win-win equally for both.

So you're saying that there are no prenup marriages with love in them? Personally I don't think that's the case.

I'll repeat myself: She gives up job, family, home, country, culture, language, and everything she knows for which she has also invested a lot of time and energy to "bet the farm" that it works out long term while you are out the cost of travel and wedding expenses if things don't work out?

She'd also get a chance to adjust herself to Swedish society and to get a permanent residency. Let's say that she is a beautiful woman that learns decent Swedish and gets a job and permanent residency in 2 years. Let's say there was a divorce. She'd get some money from what we'd saved during the two years. She'd have a job. She'd be able to pick and choose among attractive Swedish men. Chances are she'd be better off then than if she'd staid in Ukraine. So perhaps she hasn't given up that much in the end.

If you are hoping that you can attract a woman based on supply and demand economics, then you'll get exactly what you're looking for.

Let's get real. The main reason that western men look for wives in the FSU, and especially Ukraine, is because there are plenty of attractive women there that wants to marry. I.e. good supply. No one would go looking there if there were few women looking for husbands.

[Viking456]

Found an old thread about the same subject:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3732.0

[Viking456]

Thats true. But in order to do this one will have to dig deep. I am mean deep like in some very remote, poor Ukrainian village, where everybody is drunk, including the cattle, some desperate girl who wants out bad might agree to it. 

Haha.. Let's hope it's not really that bad!

[alex330]

On a somewhat related note the lovely and talented Mrs Mendeleyeva likes to say that any Russian woman has the ability to make any man a millionaire...if at first he is a billionaire. 

MY fiance tells me I am a millionaire when  I am with her (and I sure as hell feel like one), and that if I was a billionaire she would make me a millionaire anyways 

Viking, I asked the same question when I first started looking. I spoke to several attorneys and friends in the legal field and researched it. Where I live they would draft up a prenup up and translate it into both Russian and Ukrainian and film the signatures while she had counsel that spoke her language. Even then I was under the impression it would not be bulletproof.

After some time dating  I delicately brought up the subject and asked my fiance what she thought of the idea of prenup. She said she would do anything for me and she trusted me completely. She was OK with it.

I currently have two prenups sitting in a folder on my desk and am getting married in less than a month. I look over at the folder and laugh at the idea now. Several close friends are having aneurysms and pleading with me but they will never find what I have. They don't get it.

I would say that in certain cases a document may make sense if you need to protect others like family or children but in my case it really does not matter. A house I am upside down on, a car I can wreck, and money that comes and goes. My fiance has lost everything several times and like others say she is once again giving up everything to move over.

[mendeleyev]

Let's get real. The main reason that western men look for wives in the FSU, and especially Ukraine, is because there are plenty of attractive women there that wants to marry. I.e. good supply. No one would go looking there if there were few women looking for husbands.

With apologies if I have over-reacted to you. Its just that I have more than a cursory knowledge of the FSU, know the language, have been married long than I can count, have a youngest daughter finishing Moscow State University this year, have homes, dacha, car, and business interests in the FSU. That being said, no matter what the marriage agencies say to entice men, the number of women leaving for economic means is a pittance.

It is also a mistake to limit yourself to Ukraine. You'll save a couple hundred over visa/registration costs for Russia, but Ukraine is a much smaller pond and in my opinion very over fished.

What many guys fail to understand is that in either country the pool of available ladies looking for a foreign husband is far less than imagined. Given the choice most ladies will end up with a local man. And they do end up with a local man--given the low rates of WM who actually go searching.

Chances are she'd be better off then than if she'd staid in Ukraine. So perhaps she hasn't given up that much in the end.

Back to economics, I see. For the best prospects for a long term marriage in the FSU you really need to divorce yourself from that concept. Nothing wrong with prenups as long as you understand that a good divorce attorney can puncture holes in them fairly easily especially when a wife has been imported from another country/language. Even if she had signed a copy of a Ukrainian language prenup means little if the lawyer knows his stuff. I'm not against a reasonable prenup, but they aren't the best defense against asset loss.

I wish you the best. There are two Russian expressions I'll share:

"A wolf hires himself out cheaply as a shepherd."
 
and

"The goats are guarding the cabbage."

Best defense against losing your assets: Find a woman interested in building a family versus the highly visible few intent upon escaping a financial situation. That takes time, not necessarily a prenup.

[Lily]

Sorry for being persistent on this, but is it true that in case of divorce the assets that have been accumulated by every spouse prior to the marriage are also subject to splitting? My take on it is that it only concerns the things that have been acquired during the marriage, but not prior to it.

[alex330]

Sorry for being persistent on this, but is it true that in case of divorce the assets that have been accumulated by every spouse prior to the marriage are also subject to splitting? My take on it is that it only concerns the things that have been acquired during the marriage, but not prior to it.

You will need to check local laws, but in most cases assets acquired before the marriage are not considered. It gets tricky though and a good attorney always has options.

Lets say you own a piece of property before you get married and the property happens to skyrocket in value AFTER you are married.
I am told a good attorney can argue that your wife is entitled to half of the appreciation on said property.

[Jumper]

Best defense against losing your assets: Find a woman interested in building a family versus the highly visible few intent upon escaping a financial situation.
 
 That takes time, not necessarily a prenup.

 

[GQBlues]

....If one wants to marry an attractive woman from for example the Ukraine, is it likely that she'd agree to a marriage regulation?......Would such a thing be a deal breaker for many women?

Viking-
 
To answer your original questions..

Any likelihood of any of the ladies you're courting to agree on a pre-nup will entirely be subjective. As for the answer to the other question, that too, will be subjective. You'll get the answers to these on your own.

If that's your conviction, then I suggest you strongly follow it and make sure to do the best you can to adhere to them.

To me, it's one thing to make mistakes in life because you followed your own conviction. It's quite another matter knowing you made mistakes because you tried living your life under someone else's.
 
There are/were a few folks here before you who did just that if you search long enough, and certainly they can be a bit more qualified in addresssing your queries and concern.
 
Good luck.

[Gator]

Found an old thread about the same subject:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3732.0

I remember that 2007 thread. 
 
 
I believe in a prenup for many reasons. Here are some of the reasons as I wrote in the 2007 thread:
 
-   There are many reasons to have a prenup.  Protecting a family business is certainly near the top.  When your assets are liquid and solely in your name, you can do whatever you wish.  When you are involved with a family business, there are many reasons to shelter the business from attack by a divorcing spouse and her/his pack of lawyers.

-   A good prenup must take care of the woman.  Also, a RW should have two attorneys:  one from the jurisdiction where she will be residing and another from Russia to help explain this complicated process.  She should sign the prenup before leaving Russia.

-  Yes, a man should know his woman, yet women change, and life changes as well.   It would be great to be able to predict the future.  It would also be good to know the attorney whom she will retain if and when there is a divorce. Some are bloodsuckers and know how to play the game, a game that is beyond control. 

-  Where can I sign up for the 10k and back to Russia?  Few RW would want to return home, so count on her staying and you having the responsibility to make sure that she gets on her feet here.

-  To be fair, a prenup should cover not only divorce but what she receives at the man's death as well.  After all, most of us are many years older than our RW, and women outlive men anyway, suggesting we should marry women older than us (now there is a concept).  Rather than leaving your money to your children, don't you think you should provide for her too.

-  For men with minimal assets,  I recommend that you not sign a pre-nup.  Many of these RW are smart and determined.  In a few years she probably will be a better income producer than a man without assets, and if the two divorce, she may be paying alimony to the man.
 
 

[Gator]

Sorry for being persistent on this, but is it true that in case of divorce the assets that have been accumulated by every spouse prior to the marriage are also subject to splitting? My take on it is that it only concerns the things that have been acquired during the marriage, but not prior to it.

Yes and no.  Much depends upon the state laws.  And every situation is different. Premarital assets can be protected but not if they are comingled with marital assets.
 
I had a prenup with my failed marriage to a RW.  I used a highly respected attorney and I made sure my fiancee was well represented as well.  To conclude the divorce we mostly followed the payments specified in the prenup.  In the end I paid more to my attorneys than I did to my ex-wife.    The brevity of the marriage was a key reason.
 
My ex-wife was fairly reasonable during the divorce, and she certainly was not spiteful.  In fact, she and her children stayed in my house for a few months during the divorce proceedings.

The legal system is such that a divorcing wife can make life miserable.  Aggressive attorneys know how to work a case,  charge emotions, and run up fees.   And there is nothing you can do to stop such even though you probably are paying her legal costs.
 
Everybody says "know your woman."  Great, just remember that people change.  Much of the change is probably your own doing.   

[Jumper]

The way I see it, if the due diligence of true relationship , is done in the first place,
to the level that both parties are ready to marry and commit to sharing the rest of thier lives together..
 
The question of whether *she* , regardless being  Russian, Ukrainian , Swedish or Italian..
would likely have some issue with a truly fair prenup ,just seems unlikely?
I don't have a prenup,wouldn't be reasonable i nmy case.
but  I tend to date rational reasonable  women,who would have understood if i had asked about it. None would have recoiled if the subject came up.
So if it is brought up in a timely fashion, not some bomb the last day before the nuptuals ,you should be able to have a normal discussion about it.
 That's of course assuming the man is in a position to need one ,and  has legitmate concerns regarding family business etc..instead of merely being in a pro active defensive mode ,when entering the marriage.
 
 The question seems to boil down to not whether RW are generally accepting of marriage contracts or prenups, but whether they are generally intelligent and reasonable.
So seems odd.
 
It just seems the answer would be individualistic, not nationalistic?
 It's like asking if Irish woman are ok with prenups?It probably depends an awful lot more on the relationship, the man, the financial concerns and situation overall, and that one woman?
Than on anyones nationality.
 
The laws on marriage are  different state to state, and country to country,
and each individuals case is very different?
I can't see how any generality on whether someone needed one, or not, could be made.
 
 
Gator- for what it's worth, I was only addressing the OP's question of whether RW would be initially open to a prenup.
 
people do change,  marriages end , it's a coin toss.
So those who need to be prepared,  should be.
 
I still think most men are not in a position that one would help.There are just so many additional factors in suixch marriages that a good attorney could play with?
 
 The men that are, certainly should be consulting their attorney, and  i'd hope they did enough relationship foundation, to be able to ask the question easily.
 
 
 
 
 

 

[Eduard]

This is a very complicated issue and I enjoyed reading different points of view on this. Really liked posts from Faux Pas, Mendeleyev and Gator - all make sense. However, truth is that you just never know what future may bring and all you can do is put in a 100% into your relationship, have the right set of mind where you are totally committed to make it work, no matter how hard things get sometimes. Be selfless, work on your emotional intelligence, work on understanding women - women think and rationalise completely different from men. When things calm down after a fight sit down with her and let her explain her point of view. Trust me you will see that she might have a point there. She simply saw things from a different perspective. Must have a lot of emotional maturity to make a relationship last, and if you have the right woman in your life you can make it work no matter how tough things get sometimes.


Must learn to accept each other the way you are. Don't try to change the other person, work on how you relate to them, work on your own self.


But the bottom line is - make sure you know the woman you are marrying. Too many guys think they can get by with limited communication and some do get lucky, but IMO it is luck with some common sense in the mix.
Even when people have common language and culture divorce rate in both the US and Russia/Ukraine is higher than 50%. Expecting a better rate having the language and cultural barrier in the way doesn't make sense. But you can increase your chances tremendously if both you and her understand who each other is - values, family dynamics, quirks and all.
As far as prenup, it's a personal decision one must make. But IMO you should first find the woman that really Rocks your world and you rock hers. Get in a real relationship, learn about each other, understand each other. Only then start thinking whether prenup is the right option for you.

[ML]

Sorry for being persistent on this, but is it true that in case of divorce the assets that have been accumulated by every spouse prior to the marriage are also subject to splitting? My take on it is that it only concerns the things that have been acquired during the marriage, but not prior to it.

Lily, others have given you some good words of which the most important are . . . it depends on the state and many other factors.

But I can tell you an even more important factor:  THE JUDGE !!

10 judges can give 10 different rulings on the very same divorce.

I have personally witnessed some very diverse outcomes for friends.

One case in particular sticks in my mind.

They were married, lived in and divorced in a state where assets acquired before marriage was to remain with individual and assets acquired after marriage split equally.

Man had inherited $400-500,000 before marriage.

Judge knew it had to remain with man (and there was no co-mingling as this money had never been touched, only reinvested); but knowing of that amount, the judge gave woman about 90% of the marital property.  So it is really an illusion when you hear that property acquired before marriage is to be kept solely by the individuals.

Similarly, many (most?) prenups can be illusions . . . if the judge so decides. 

Oh, by the way . . . they both knew each other very well since age 5 or so and the families were very close.

This mantra of 'know the person' is pretty funny.

[Doll]

,
 
But the bottom line is - make sure you know the woman you are marrying.     

Eddie, what does it have to do with prenups? Ok, you know the woman and then what?
"Family business" has to be protected. Divorces are ugly in most of cases.

[Doll]

   

 

This mantra of 'know the person' is pretty funny.

Exactly! You only really get to know the person when you divorce him (her).

[Eduard]

Eddie, what does it have to do with prenups? Ok, you know the woman and then what?
"Family business" has to be protected. Divorces are ugly in most of cases.

a prenup may or may not work. Knowing the person you are marrying will reduce the chance that you will ever need a prenup, no?

[Donna_Pedro]

Quote from: Donna_Pedro on December 21, 2011, 03:57:27 PM
Thats true. But in order to do this one will have to dig deep. I am mean deep like in some very remote, poor Ukrainian village, where everybody is drunk, including the cattle, some desperate girl who wants out bad might agree to it.   



Haha.. Let's hope it's not really that bad!

I am just telling you how a RW might think, or at least how I would if I was offered a pre-nup. I am a practical person. And I am not 20 yo. I separate business from feelings. So, my first question is - What is in it to me? Why do I need such a hassle?  If I dont have other choices and realize that a man, offering a pre-nup is my one in a lifetime opportunity to get out, then I would sign a prenup. But if I have other choices and I am confident that I can find me a hassle-free deal, (and even if I dont - my life is not bad as it is),  why would I sign a document that is potentially not in my favor?  Even if it is translated and approved by a Russian lawyer. A russian lawyer would approve everything for a right amount of  cash. A russian lawyer does not know specifics of all laws of different states.  I understand a men's point of view, but mine is very simple -    WHAT IS IN ITTO ME?  Unless alimony is a part of the deal.. but then.. how would I know if the amount offered is good or I could have asked for more? Too many unknowns. To much hassle. For me it would  be a deal-breaker.

[Kuna]

I am just telling you how a RW might think, or at least how I would if I was offered a pre-nup. I am a practical person. And I am not 20 yo. I separate business from feelings. So, my first question is - What is in it to me? Why do I need such a hassle?  If I dont have other choices and realize that a man, offering a pre-nup is my one in a lifetime opportunity to get out, then I would sign a prenup. But if I have other choices and I am confident that I can find me a hassle-free deal, (and even if I dont - my life is not bad as it is),  why would I sign a document that is potentially not in my favor?  Even if it is translated and approved by a Russian lawyer. A russian lawyer would approve everything for a right amount of  cash. A russian lawyer does not know specifics of all laws of different states.  I understand a men's point of view, but mine is very simple -    WHAT IS IN ITTO ME?  Unless alimony is a part of the deal.. but then.. how would I know if the amount offered is good or I could have asked for more? Too many unknowns. To much hassle. For me it would  be a deal-breaker.

This is an interesting and refreshingly honest perspective on pre-nups...

Really,  any woman signing must suspect she's being asked to get less - not more - than she might without the pre-nup.

A woman who is more desperate may not care...  anything is better than nothing right???  Someone who's not desperate could just say no - and then it's up to the man to decide if he cares more about his fiance or his assets.

[Donna_Pedro]

This is an interesting and refreshingly honest perspective on pre-nups...

Really,  any woman signing must suspect she's being asked to get less - not more - than she might without the pre-nup.

A woman who is more desperate may not care...  anything is better than nothing right???  Someone who's not desperate could just say no - and then it's up to the man to decide if he cares more about his fiance or his assets.

Just think about. Before a woman comes here she does not know local economics. For example - is $50K a big salary? What kind of life style does it provide? You would have to take tens of different details into consideration before you could answer this question. And you need to live here to know these details. Who is going to explain to her all those multiple "if"s and "but"s  pre-nup's terms  imply? A russian lawyer? How would he know?  An american lawyer? I dont think so. When talking about a foreign woman and AM, a pre-nup is ALWAYS in men's favor.

[OlgaH]

This mantra of 'know the person' is pretty funny.

I agree.

Since my young age I remember  proverbs  my grandfather taught  me

Чтобы узнать человека, надо с ним пуд соли съесть (English equivalent would be: Before you make a friend eat a bushel of salt with him)

and another one is "вместе пройти огонь, воду и медные трубы" (go through fire and water together or go through thick and thin together)

and it doesn't take just a few visits or a few months spent together 

[mies]

Sorry for being persistent on this, but is it true that in case of divorce the assets that have been accumulated by every spouse prior to the marriage are also subject to splitting? My take on it is that it only concerns the things that have been acquired during the marriage, but not prior to it.

My take on it is that it depends on a country. If Viking is raising such question, perhaps in Sweden it is possible to divide assets which were earned before marriage.

Viking, I think your expectations are reasonable. If I were a single woman looking for husband, I would not be planning on getting a chunk of his pre-marriage assets. Hence, I would not mind the prenup. I  would however be weary of having children with such man. At least in the early years of marriage. It's probably not very rational approach, but generally, if a man wants to share only some portion of his life with me, I would not be very willing to bet my future on a life with such man. If I really wanted to have family with children, perhaps I would not be marrying such man. Not because of the prenup, but more because of the trust (or lack of such) concern. If I weren't planning on having children with this specific man, or in general, at least for the nearest 5+ years, I probably would not mind at all man offering me the prenup. And yet on the other hand, if prenup were well-balanced and addresses all relevant issues, including possible planned or unplanned children, then - why not having it? I think women would agree with your suggestion. I like what Gator wrote to you in this thread. 

Someone has already asked you earlier in this thread how the possible future children come into your "prenup" plan. And since you are concerned with woman using you for money, would you, for example, be concerned that some woman will have your child only to get from you child support later?

[mendeleyev]

This mantra of 'know the person' is pretty funny.

So the logical alternative is to not know the person.

Not funny.

[OlgaH]

So the logical alternative is to not know the person.

No, Mendeleyev, not at all. The logical alternative is you can say you know a person when you went with him/her through your happy and troublesome time in your life