Is "trading up" really such a bad thing?

[Kuna]

sorry about the formatting... something's going very strange...

[Kuna]

 when i said i considered my husband's financial situation, everybody automatically assumed that it was ALL I considered.

Don't go back-tracking now... not only did you portray it as your primary consideration in your own relationship... you also boast that you research other women's fiance's (or bfs) to provide commentary on their financial position for the women.

This part is what I find most offensive...  not just because it's rude - but it's likely to be highly misleading!

You're meddling in other people's lives purely out of mischief!!!

Shame on you!

[Patagonie]

It is also clearly my opinion, D__P

 You have put in flames a 4 months' relationship just because of a twisted sense of the reality.

You think that the basis of a succed mariage is finding the maximum $ but for most elaborated men it is a kill lover as soon as they detect it. But i will agree with you, i prefer a frank woman, "who wears her balls" rather the BS women in west who have exactly the same attitude (and we have a lot) and don't want to recognize it in public, you have this "courage". And  there are some men who are not disturbed by such attitude, every sock has a companion in the world !

What is really more dangerous, as in any human situation (With a wife, with an associee, a friend with who are practicing risky alpinism) is someone who has no clue with the reality. And your deconnection from the real life shows that you have no interest in societies (plural) and you have no empathy for others. Empathy, is the way to explore every human being in an individual meeting as well as in a intercultural meeting.

You want to be respected by forcing people to sign a common mariage but you don't respect our culture (culture is a global understanding; not only going to opera) by having no interest and no knowledge in it even after 10 years of relocation. (just what can be useful to you).



In this case, as i've already told you in a previous post, it's really better to stop to counsel yours gfs.

[Donna_Pedro]

There are many marriages that last for a lot longer than 10 years that are unhealthy marriages.

It must be getting harder and harder for you to come up with reasons to ignore facts, eh? Well let me repeat- I do understand,  some facts are hard to swallow "as is", you need to grease them with  speculations about "some marriages" etc for them to go down smoothly.  You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great.

DP... a long marriage is not necessarily a healthy marriage.

Whom are you trying to convince here? me or you? 

"Darlin'  there's no logic in any of the statement you've been making through these threads about money hungry FSUW.

I knew it wont sink in from the first attempt. Dont worry, I will repeat - You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great.  And btw, my approach worked great not just for me

I was asking you to confront your own insecurities and be brave enough to be honest

I  am honest, you choose to ignore it. You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great. Its a damn fact.
 

One of the triggers for this thread was not a critique of your relationship... but your simplistic "service" when giving commentary of a man's financial position through a flawed and ineffective process of gathering data.

                                                                     
Again you choose to ignore facts -  why would I actually have anybody using my "service" if people would not feel that it helps?  I am not charging for it, and certainly not advertising. You can not go forever coming up with ridiculous reasons to ignore facts. But I am sure you will try and I will be waiting with my facts ready.

PS. By the way, for historical processes 70 years (2-3 generations) is not a long time. My grandma was born before the revolution, but my mom was in her early 50s when she witnessed a collapse of communist regime.  Off  target again, "darling".  And my original statement still stays - no structure or system can work for a long time, if a basis is not designed properly.

[Donna_Pedro]

It is also clearly my opinion, D__P. You have put in flames a 4 months' relationship just because of a twisted sense of the reality (self centerered because you chase only the top 10 or 1% and

Weird sht you have in your head. I dont mind, though, its your head after all. Just dont say I did (or said) all that. Please keep me away from your delirium.

[Ade]

It must be getting harder and harder for you to come up with reasons to ignore facts, eh? Well let me repeat- I do understand,  some facts are hard to swallow "as is", you need to grease them with  speculations about "some marriages" etc for them to go down smoothly.  You might not like it,  you might not accept it, but however "bad" my attitude seems, it works great. My marriage is a happy one. And Its a functional one.

Sure we accept that some marriages like yours work very well, at least for as long as the lifestyle is maintained, but you seem to have a hard time understanding that a marriage choice based primarily on lifestyle and finances, as you've described yours to be, probably wouldn't work for a lot of western men. It's not what most of us want in the same way that we do not want to sponsor a woman even if a lot of sponsorships are probably great "functional relationships" too.

Parading your 10 year marriage in front of us in a sample of 1 to try to promote your way of thinking as a successful one, is just silly. I can point to a woman on this forum that did the complete opposite to what you suggest and she's been happily married for more than twice what you have been. So, what, does my example discredit yours?  No, of course not. There will always be people like you that find a compatible guy willing to provide a lifestyle to get a wife in return. And there will always be people like me, that won't but neither attitudes are absolute guarantees of failure or success as it all depends on how compatible we are with the women we meet and marry.

I, personally, would suggest that most people would prefer a marriage based primarily on emotional ties over one based on finances even if, for arguments sake, it would mean a shorter marriage in the long run. After all, what man in their right mind wants to be married to a woman that is primarily with him for the lifestyle when there are many women out there willing to be sponsored without all the extra responsibilities that come with marriage?

[Patagonie]

From D__P
Quote<blockquote>Sure, you want to learn of any and all deal-breakers ASAP. However, I can't see these conversations happening in the first few dates or perhaps even the first week. </blockquote>

lets get clear on the terms here. What do you mean by "dates"? we are talking a long-distant relationship here - so there are no dates per se, but e-mails, phone calls, etc.  Why spend say 3-4-5 months talking to a girl just to learn that you are not comparable in basics? Why waste time and money?  I would say this should be one of the first important questions discussed. A friend of mine was dating (long-distantly) a guy only to learn his salary is just $50K, the same amount in debts and nothing to show for them. I suggested that she discussed these issues before his trip, but she thought he  would not "understand". So as a result - both wasted time and the man also wasted money.
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I bet before you open your mouth there were no issues, after a lot... Just my opinion. Why to not tell her the truth ? You would have told her : "50 k is an average household in USA and he has almost no debt, but you will have to work to have more comfort". (take time to have interest to others and you will quickly understand 50k $ debt is low or very low in Europe and USA).

[Donna_Pedro]

not only did you portray it as your primary consideration in your own relationship..

Where did I say that it was THE ONLY one?  You assumed? Shame on you.

. you also boast that you research other women's fiance's (or bfs) to provide commentary on their financial position for the women.

I did say this. Btw, it usually happens (and I recommend it this way) before a relationship is in place. Its not practical - to mix finances with anything else. I say - communicate a few times, collect as much primary info as you can,  check finances, if your expectations are met -  see if other boxes check out, and then it might be worth trying to build a relationship. There might be even feelings eventually. But I strongly suggest that women keep their heads cold and love-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival. There could be a "no-go" on every level..Sometimes it happens - a rich guy could be an a-hole and its up to a woman if she wants to try to build a relationship with him or proceed to the next one.

[Donna_Pedro]

From D__P
 I bet before you open your mouth there were no issues, after a lot...

I can even tell you what happened next.  I told her exactly the way I see it - $50K for 3 people and $50K of cc debt translates to a tight budget. She earns her own good money, she goes to resorts on vacations a t least 3 times a year, drives a good car, etc. But still she agreed to meet him . Her choice. So he calls me to ask what gifts to bring. And since she happened to be a friend of mine, I knew exactly the thing. I told him to buy a particular brand of perfume. $70 at  a duty free store. And do you know what that idiot did? He ignored the advice and showed up on my friends door step with a huge sack of flip-flops and cheap t-shirts, leaving the woman speechless. Yes, from there it went downhill.

[Gator]

Two thoughts about money.


Psychiatric counselling is not reimbursed in America by health insurance in most cases.  Thus, the busy work schedule of psychiatrists in America proves that money can not buy happiness.


There is a Mexican proverb that starts with "Money does not belong to the person who makes it but to those who spend it."  My family and my government usually spent more than I spent on myself.  I am happy for the family and I accept the government's tax. There are some men who make Big Money yet spend it only on what he wants.  RW know that a less wealthy man is better than such egotists. 


[Italics are translated Russian words.]

[Gator]

Donna,

You are a bigger lightening rod than the old days at RWG.  Not now, but I would like to talk with you about the differences.


Every man and woman has threshold mandatory criteria about an acceptable spouse.  Few of  us men go to the FSU seeking a fat woman as we have an ample choice at home.  And most RW do not seek financially unstable men as there are plenty of them in the FSU. 


Only a desperate woman would take any financially secure man who showed up.  There are other qualities that attract us to those whom we marry.  Some of these are perhaps considered shallow by most yet that is the person's right.  For example, I knew an AW who would not continue to date much less marry a man packing less than 25 cm.  Now that was deep shallow.   

Regardless of our many criteria, in the end it boils down to feelings.  The typically shortened periods of dating RW in combination with language, cultural and age differences increases the risk that our  feelings are confused if not wrong.  If marriage proves unfulfilling, and differences can not be reconciled, it is better to divorce than linger.  I do not call that trading up.

[jeff9556]

$50K for 3 people and $50K of cc debt translates to a tight budget.

No argument there, ones annual salary in CC debt shows this man had no financial responsibility and was living beyond his means - probably for some time. I don't think any of us have been thinking this was CC debt, rather a bank loan in which case the terms would be much more favorable. I can't even imagine having that much on CC.

I told him to buy a particular brand of perfume. $70 at  a duty free store. And do you know what that idiot did? He ignored the advice and showed up on my friends door step with a huge sack of flip-flops and cheap t-shirts, leaving the woman speechless. Yes, from there it went downhill.

LOL, now that's hilarious. Unfortunately some guys don't quite get romance and what makes a good gift. Maybe if he was dating a Samoan it would have gone down a treat 

[BC]

I say - communicate a few times, collect as much primary info as you can,  check finances, if your expectations are met -  see if other boxes check out, and then it might be worth trying to build a relationship. There might be even feelings eventually. But I strongly suggest that women keep their heads cold and love-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival. There could be a "no-go" on every level..Sometimes it happens - a rich guy could be an a-hole and its up to a woman if she wants to try to build a relationship with him or proceed to the next one.

I think what Donna may be hinting at is that FSUW, based on a decade of feedback from their long emigrated peers (and those that have returned) FSUW interested in this venture are beginning to take a yardstick to measure the waters before jumping in.

In effect, this is pretty much the same that happens when dating AW.. they will be able to 'size you up' a bit being more familiar with workplaces, home values, cars, spending habits and credit.. -aside from time being on their side to figure out what they are truly getting into.

Quite prudent IMHO and only represents a more level playing field.

IIRC one of the leading causes of divorce is financial stress / troubles.  I don't think AM/FSUW relationships fare any better than AM/AW in that respect.

I can also see FSUW oriented consulting services such as Donna informally provides being utilized more frequently, even as a professional service to help substantiate the position of their prospective overseas mates. Sorta like what men do via agencies etc.

[Donna_Pedro]

Only a desperate woman would take any financially secure man who showed up.

Yes. But I dont know where "any" come from...

Regardless of our many criteria, in the end it boils down to feelings.  The typically shortened periods of dating RW in combination with language, cultural and age differences increases the risk that our  feelings are confused if not wrong.

do you remember that young girl that had a cameo appearance back on rwg complaining of her husband. The guy was a GOB from a very small town in MS, who had a small family restaurant. She was working there as a waitress with no salary (tips only) among all that  rough crowd etc and the town did not have anything, not even a small Sears  or such, and the only establishment of culture was that restaurant of his.. What the husband did was completely moronic - he brought a drunk female co-worker to the house and laid her to sleep in their bed. Great guy.  The girl called me crying.  I asked her if she had asked  specific questions to him beforehand?  And she said, "no, he came to see me and I fell in love". I have seen enough stories like that - women neglecting to ask "down to earth" questions, because they were in love, or scared to piss the guy off, etc.  So yes, eventually it does boil down to feelings. But I suggest to both sides not to fall in love before they actually start living together.

[Misha]

But I strongly suggest that women keep their heads cold and love-free as long as possible, at least till after her arrival.

You mean until her arrival in her future husband's country? So, let me see if I understand you correctly: you are still advocating that a woman not fall in love, not feel anything for a man, until she moves and presumably marries him? God, I am happy that my wife did not follow your philosophy. The thing is that it is possible for a woman (and a man) to fall in love, to feel emotion, yet still retain enough logical thought to make sure that they won't end up marrying the wrong person.


In my case, I was fortunate that I could stay three months in Russia and I pretty much spent every day after I met her with the woman who is now my wife. Had she followed you advocacy, she should have been "love-free" all those three months, and had she done that I would certainly have broken off our relationship. The one thing that I did not want was a woman who did not fall in love, a woman that I did not fall in love with while dating. I wanted love and passion and was not willing to settle for anything less.


Did my wife test me? Did she make certain that she would have a decent life with me? Yes. To test whether I truly had feelings for me, she simply checked to see if she could make me jealous and then see how I would react. I passed the test. Jealous enough to demonstrate that I loved her, and a reasonable enough reaction to really let her know what kind of personality I truly had.


As for the financial, I had the good fortune of meeting a woman who had spend much time in Germany with relatives. They were not rich, but your average German families. She knew what living an average life in another country entailed. Consequently, she did not obsess with my finances. She knew that I had a decent job, that I was educated and that together she was confident that we could build a decent life. That and knowing that I loved her was enough for her as she had fallen in love with me and wanted to build a life with me.

[Misha]

I have seen enough stories like that - women neglecting to ask "down to earth" questions, because they were in love, or scared to piss the guy off, etc.  So yes, eventually it does boil down to feelings. But I suggest to both sides not to fall in love before they actually start living together.

Once you are living together, it is too late. However, you are jumping from one extreme to another. You can fall in love and still try to understand what kind of character a man or a woman has. What you are suggesting comes across IMHO as the strategy someone who was really burnt by love would adopt as they then decide to shield themselves from ever being hurt again by striving to never feel the emotion ever again.

[Donna_Pedro]

What you are suggesting comes across IMHO as the strategy someone who was really burnt by love would adopt as they then decide to shield themselves from ever being hurt again by striving to never feel the emotion ever again.

Its not just our experience that teaches us. You dont need to be burnt on drugs  to understand its dangerous, right?  As far as experience - I do have a lot, indeed. I have lived in 4 different states here and participated in half a dozen immigrant internet forums. And my conclusion is - most of "broken heart" stories happened ultimately because of love. People could not judge situation correctly, got too attached and ignored red flags, did not ask questions they were supposed to ask, which resulted in unreasonable expectations. No, I repeat, NO LOVE till a couple starts living together


 Btw, you started living together before your woman arrived to the US. Which is unusual. People with "average american income of $50K plus liabilities", which, according your data, constitute the majority of AM looking for women in Russia, can hardly afford a 3 months trip to Russia. Thats aside from the fact that average vacation time in US is what? 2-6 weeks? So..

[Donna_Pedro]

I think what Donna may be hinting at is that FSUW, based on a decade of feedback from their long emigrated peers (and those that have returned) FSUW interested in this venture are beginning to take a yardstick to measure the waters before jumping in.

In effect, this is pretty much the same that happens when dating AW.. they will be able to 'size you up' a bit being more familiar with workplaces, home values, cars, spending habits and credit.. -aside from time being on their side to figure out what they are truly getting into.

Quite prudent IMHO and only represents a more level playing field.

IIRC one of the leading causes of divorce is financial stress / troubles.  I don't think AM/FSUW relationships fare any better than AM/AW in that respect.

I can also see FSUW oriented consulting services such as Donna informally provides being utilized more frequently, even as a professional service to help substantiate the position of their prospective overseas mates. Sorta like what men do via agencies etc.

You said it all in one post. Thanks.

[jeff9556]

Ah... interesting...  so you didn't trade UP to become happy....  you traded OUT.   

Touche!

When you find the right lady and remarry you will again be trading up - which of course isn't a bad thing... as long as you keep your feet on the ground and don't have unrealistic expectations of your lady.

Well, really you should know something about my ex - she is a wonderful lady, but we were just not suited or wanting the same things out of life - we met when she was just 20 and I was 33, 7 years on we both wanted different things - this is a risk you take marrying or getting involved with someone of that age.

Then again... it's a modern world...  we should encourage equality in relationships.  Perhaps you should be checking the income, savings and asset valuations of the ladies you are dating. 

Perhaps DP could help you work out if these women are worthy or not???   

Are you being facetious? Sorry, I am not sure, I thought I made it pretty clear in my post that I don't look at her financial background (RW or WW), in any case its one small factor in the grand scheme of things.

[Misha]

I have lived in 4 different states here and participated in half a dozen immigrant internet forums. And my conclusion is - most of "broken heart" stories happened ultimately because of love.

The problem is that not all Russian women are interested in internet forums. My wife, for example, has zero interest in forums even though she knows they exist. You thus will have plenty of happy women, who did fall in love and do love, who will not share their stories. However, you are confounding two issues: fall in love and marrying the wrong person. You can fall in love, figure out whether he is truly a worthy man, and then get married. I could also say that most of the "broken heart" stories on this forum are based on men marrying women who did not love them.

People could not judge situation correctly, got too attached and ignored red flags, did not ask questions they were supposed to ask, which resulted in unreasonable expectations. No, I repeat, NO LOVE till a couple starts living together

And what if love does not come after marriage? I, for one, would not want to be in a loveless marriage.

Btw, you started living together before your woman arrived to the US. Which is unusual.

We weren't living together, but we saw each other every day.

People with "average american income of $50K plus liabilities", which, according your data, constitute the majority of AM looking for women in Russia, can hardly afford a 3 months trip to Russia. Thats aside from the fact that average vacation time in US is what? 2-6 weeks? So..

Truthfully, I pretty much knew everything that I had to know about my wife in the first month. However, I will say that I would never recommend the one-week wonder approach: finding the first woman, spending 7-10 days with her and then deciding to marry her, especially if there is no love on her side.

[Patagonie]

Its not just our experience that teaches us. You dont need to be burnt on drugs  to understand its dangerous, right?  As far as experience - I do have a lot, indeed. I have lived in 4 different states here and participated in half a dozen immigrant internet forums. And my conclusion is - most of "broken heart" stories happened ultimately because of love. People could not judge situation correctly, got too attached and ignored red flags, did not ask questions they were supposed to ask, which resulted in unreasonable expectations. No, I repeat, NO LOVE till a couple starts living together


 Btw, you started living together before your woman arrived to the US. Which is unusual. People with "average american income of $50K plus liabilities", which, according your data, constitute the majority of AM looking for women in Russia, can hardly afford a 3 months trip to Russia. Thats aside from the fact that average vacation time in US is what? 2-6 weeks? So..

"did not ask questions they were supposed to ask". Correct it's rare that they ask questions, or "be curious". Some did, at an advanced level of the relationship, but quite the exception. In your opinion why they are not curious ?

 

[BC]

Truthfully, I pretty much knew everything that I had to know about my wife in the first month. However, I will say that I would never recommend the one-week wonder approach: finding the first woman, spending 7-10 days with her and then deciding to marry her, especially if there is no love on her side.

I believe that when it comes to the 'L' word, men are usually the first to interpret the current state of their relationship as 'love'.  Women IMHO follow along at a much later stage, maybe even with a different definition or perception as to what that indescribable feeling of 'love' is.  I don't believe it is necessary that the point in time where both parties achieve this state of mind has to be at the same moment.  Also considering that couples, usually one partner, seem to fall in as well as out of love, maybe for discussions here it is irrelevant.

May sound absurd, but I see parallels in other relationship aspects.. Who has an easier time faking an orgasm... men or women? Did she really enjoy your 'performance' or are other values more relavant in carrying on a relationship?  Remember that to men women are still quite a 'mystery'.. men from mars, women from venus type of thing.  This has been described for centuries and I doubt we'll resolve it here in this thread.

Might want to think about the concept of 'commitment' instead - it's probably more relevant and applicable to what really happens, especially with these slingshot marriages where dating in the conventional sense is truly rare.

[ghost of moon goddess]

Ah... interesting...  so you didn't trade UP to become happy....  you traded OUT.   

When you find the right lady and remarry you will again be trading up - which of course isn't a bad thing... as long as you keep your feet on the ground and don't have unrealistic expectations of your lady.

Then again... it's a modern world...  we should encourage equality in relationships.  Perhaps you should be checking the income, savings and asset valuations of the ladies you are dating. 

Perhaps DP could help you work out if these women are worthy or not???   

What if it turns out that the RW has a higher net worth than the WM ??? 

[Donna_Pedro]

The problem is that not all Russian women are interested in internet forums. You thus will have plenty of happy women, who did fall in love and do love, who will not share their stories.

there are plenty of different women with different stories who choose not to reveal them in person or online. We can not speculate on their situation.

However, you are confounding two issues: fall in love and marrying the wrong person.

in my experience one often leads to another.

could also say that most of the "broken heart" stories on this forum are based on men marrying women who did not love them.

yes, exactly. Men fell in love themselves and could not recognize the fact that women were not. Good example, thanks.

And what if love does not come after marriage?

And what if 1 (2-5-7) from her arrival you (or her) stop loving each other? Never considered this situation? Marriage requires a more solid foundation than just love.

[Kuna]

Are you being facetious?

Yes.