Realistic Expectations

[chivo]

With that said, they are still coming over here because Russia sucks. To put it bluntly. Russia has not gone through some sort of Golden Age, and none of us got the memo. Most folks cannot even afford vodka, but rather samogon, and I have it on good authority, from an actual Russian lady (American citizen) I lived with, who said, she would never have left Russia if it was not a horrible place to live. In fact, social and economic conditions were here primary motive for leaving; in addition to a hidalgo type class that limited people's advancement, much like in Mexico. She had just gotten back from Russia after divorcing an American, in fact, and risked all sorts of uncertainty by coming back. Let me clarify: She left her family, who are well off, TWICE. TWICE. Because she said Russia is a bad place to live. Sure there are multiple viewpoints. Some places may be better. She lived in a major city, not some backwater village, and she still hated it. I personally think Russia has lots of hope and I like their culture and people, but last I checked, they are still leaving to GET AWAY from Russia. I do not think there is anything at all wrong with that, either. If USA sucked, I would expect American women to do whatever it took to get out. I think there is still room in that entire process for a great marriage to be formed, because the men are no angels in this thing, either, they are swooping in with the big American dollars in the hopes of trading up and getting a hotter chick than they can get over here. It's mutual gain, which is good for both parties. As long as everyone is happy, great.

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Because I have it on good authority he exists, well I mean someone told me. 
 
Just a ridiculous post on many levels.
 
For the bazillionth time and as reiterated by knowledgeable people on this board, the vast, and I mean vast majority of people do not want to leave Russia.
 

I do not have any respect for people who talk bad about the country they were born and raised. Russia is a wonderful place to live. There are not enough decent men to get married.

PERIOD!!!!!!!!
 
 
 

[chivo]

what surprises me is the demographic which is voicing this openly as I'm surprised by the number of my wife's friends and ex-coworkers who have voiced such thoughts as most all would be considered to have a comfortable upper middle-class lifestyle.

Why would this surprise you?
 
Of course they are going to be the ones voicing their opinions. They're the most educated and have the most to lose. They are also the ones that CAN make a difference and actually already are.
 
Again for the bazillionth time Russia is an emerging country. Why most Westerners continue to compare it to established countries like the USA and Europe, etc. for example, is beyond me.
 
Things don't change overnight, especially a system as deep rooted in it past ways as Russia is. There have been many positive changes already and many more are taking root. Give it time and then see where things are.
 
And with predicting the outcome of any country economically or politically can anyone be sure what will happen in the future? No, if you ask me. The world has become as unpredictable as ever, and that includes the good old USA.
 
It would be nice to see a little bit less of "American exceptionalism". The same shit happens everywhere (just disguised differently) and the guarantees have left some time ago.

[chivo]

Choosing the right Russian womanSome Western men who set out to find a Russian woman for marriage are not being very realistic when they start contacting girls who are much younger and have the looks that are way out of a guy's league.  I have already talked about age disparity in the previous blog, but picking a "believable" Russian woman match for yourself in regards to appearance is also very important. Generally it doesn't make sense when a balding, 70 lbs. overweight, out of shape 50 or 60 year old guy is seeing with a gorgeous, model-like 22 year old girl on his arm. Sure, anything is possible and there will always be exceptions to the rule, and if you have the fame and fortune of some one like Woody Allen you may have a beautiful young girl fall in love with your persona. However most of us have to be a bit more realistic in our expectations and as a rule choosing a more believable woman (whether it is a Russian woman or not) will yield much better results in regards to both finding and maintaining a relationship with a Russian woman.
You must forget the old "All Russian women want to get out of their country and come to America" way of thinking. No one wants to get out of Russia any longer and you are not doing any Russian woman a favor by bringing her to the USA, Canada or another Western country. In fact having to relocate to another country to be with you is usually a negative for a Russian woman. Imagine how tough it is for a Russian woman to come to your country! She has to leave her family and friends, quit her career, leave her entire support system behind and come to a completely unfamiliar place where they speak a different language, the  culture is different and where she doesn't know any one. She will have to completely rely and depend on her man for everything in the beginning. This wouldn't be easy for any woman or man.
Think about this in real life terms. When you are looking at a photo of a Russian woman, ask yourself: "Would a local woman who looks like this go out with me and possibly marry me?" If the answer is "No way!" what makes you think that a Russian woman would?
While in the West (N. America, Western Europe) we are experiencing a deficit of good looking, slim, single, feminine (not feminist), marriage minded, family oriented women the situation is a 180 degrees in reverse in the countries of the former Soviet Union (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, etc.). They are experiencing a huge deficit of single, decent, non-drinking, not abusive, marriage minded, family oriented men. There is a large number of Russian women who have absolutely no chance of ever getting married and having a family of their own unless they significantly lower their standards...
Unlike Western women, Russian women are not spoiled by the availability of many single, reasonably attractive, marriage minded men around, so they don't set their standards as high as the women in the Western countries, and if they do find a good guy that they like they generally tend to hold on to him, unlike Western women who in many cases like to continue looking around, "exploring other options" and basically looking for "A better deal".
This disparity in the ratio between sexes makes it relatively easy for Western men to find much better quality women in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and other FSU countries than they could find locally, where they live. But keeping it realistic and not trying to marry a Russian woman who is way out of your league is strongly advised.
The rule of thumb that I suggest to my clients is to not go more than a couple of steps above of the women they normally date at home. For instance if you date women who are 4 and 5 (on the scale of 1 to 10) you can easily find a wonderful Russian woman who is a 6 or a 7. Looking for a 9 or a 10 wouldn't be very realistic.  If you are dating 6s and 7s at home you can easily find 8s and 9s in Russia who will be happy to date and marry you later.
Too many Western men who are quite average in looks and everything else think that somehow they have this imaginary "special value" because they can provide a Russian woman the way to citizenship in his country. This way of thinking is flawed and dangerous, because you just might get what you wish for - a nowdays rare woman who for some reason is interested in obtaining citizenship in your country and will use you as a stepping stone.

Ed, solid as usual.

[sniper]

With that said, they are still coming over here because Russia sucks. To put it bluntly. Russia has not gone through some sort of Golden Age, and none of us got the memo. Most folks cannot even afford vodka, but rather samogon, and I have it on good authority, from an actual Russian lady (American citizen) I lived with, who said, she would never have left Russia if it was not a horrible place to live. In fact, social and economic conditions were here primary motive for leaving; in addition to a hidalgo type class that limited people's advancement, much like in Mexico. She had just gotten back from Russia after divorcing an American, in fact, and risked all sorts of uncertainty by coming back. Let me clarify: She left her family, who are well off, TWICE. TWICE. Because she said Russia is a bad place to live. Sure there are multiple viewpoints. Some places may be better. She lived in a major city, not some backwater village, and she still hated it. I personally think Russia has lots of hope and I like their culture and people, but last I checked, they are still leaving to GET AWAY from Russia.

Russia sucks for those who suck themselves.
Where are you from? Have you ever been to 80% white trash areas, or areas where its a lilbit dark (if you know what I mean) like New Orleans or just bad bad bad neighborhoods in big cities like NYC or LA?
Seriously. Your post is ridiculous.
When I was in DC (we got a hotel room in bad neighborhood) I was praying i get back to my room from metro station all in one piece. Same in NYC - got a room at Comfort Inn or smth near JFK, went out to get a pack of cigarettes - OMG I never been that scared in my whole entire life. Shopping in El Paso - 'pregnant'  women 'get preggo' for half an hour to steal stuff....
Oh and Russian dont live in trailers.
I assume you are(or your Russian friend) from Lala land and you make at least 200K if you say that. Its cool, but here in El Paso my neighbor across the street has an unemployed wife and 4 kids and he makes around 30K. And its not something unheard you know. I dont know how those guys make it, but 100% I had way better life in Russia.
I m sorry. Your post seemed just offensive to me.   

[Gator]

My three sample points about the issue of wanting to stay in Russia (I have little experience with Ukraine):
 
1.  I continue to meet many RW students attending a large university near my home.  These students are bright and represent the type of young people that Russia needs for its future.  Their plans? Almost all want to stay in America after their studies are completed.   
 
2.  Most but not all of the RW I dated (30s to upper 40s) said they avoided RM.  Typically, they had a bad marriage to RM, and post-marriage dating with RM was just as bad.  Of course, this is only the woman's version and likely the RM in their lives would have a different version.  In fact, a few of the RW I met seemed very difficult, so difficult that I find it unlikely that any man could be happy with them.
 
3.  Through friends of RW I dated,  I have met many married Russian couples living in Russia.   First, the RM impress me as good men.  Most couples seem satisfied with their lives in Russia and do not want to go through the huge hassle of moving.   Nevertheless, some do; one couple emmigrated to Australia, another applied to Canada, and another is looking to buy a business in the US that would allow them to immigrate here. 

[Eduard]

Russia sucks for those who suck themselves.
Where are you from? Have you ever been to 80% white trash areas, or areas where its a lilbit dark (if you know what I mean) like New Orleans or just bad bad bad neighborhoods in big cities like NYC or LA?
Seriously. Your post is ridiculous.
When I was in DC (we got a hotel room in bad neighborhood) I was praying i get back to my room from metro station all in one piece. Same in NYC - got a room at Comfort Inn or smth near JFK, went out to get a pack of cigarettes - OMG I never been that scared in my whole entire life. Shopping in El Paso - 'pregnant'  women 'get preggo' for half an hour to steal stuff....
Oh and Russian dont live in trailers.
I assume you are(or your Russian friend) from Lala land and you make at least 200K if you say that. Its cool, but here in El Paso my neighbor across the street has an unemployed wife and 4 kids and he makes around 30K. And its not something unheard you know. I dont know how those guys make it, but 100% I had way better life in Russia.
I m sorry. Your post seemed just offensive to me.

Now look what you've done!!! At a stroke of a key you just destroyed such a nice little fantasy! 

[Gator]

.... like New Orleans....
 

Great city, and the black population is largely good and entertaining. Knowing the "local" spots helps. 

[Eduard]

2.  Most but not all of the RW I dated (30s to upper 40s) said they avoided RM.  Typically, they had a bad marriage to RM, and post-marriage dating with RM was just as bad. 

Phil, have you talked to many RW who were married to AM and then divorced? I have, and they tell me that they avoid AM and would only date and marry RM.  Typically, they had a bad marriage to AM, and post-marriage dating with AM was just as bad. 
Women/people have a tendency to generalise and once they have a very bad experience they seem to: "Всех под одну гребенку" so to speak.

[Gator]

Phil, have you talked to many RW who were married to AM and then divorced? I have, and they tell me that they avoid AM and would only date and marry RM.  Typically, they had a bad marriage to AM, and post-marriage dating with AM was just as bad. 
Women/people have a tendency to generalise and once they have a very bad experience they seem to: "Всех под одну гребенку" so to speak.

Not many but some.  Mixed observations.  A couple RW ended up happily married to a new AM.  A couple of others focus on the local RM population.   
 
Then there is the category of women whose lot in life is to get passed from man to man in relatively short order.  Sounds derogatory, yet I don't know how to express it in any other manner.  Such women are everywhere including AW. 

[Eduard]

Of course, this is only the woman's version and likely the RM in their lives would have a different version.  In fact, a few of the RW I met seemed very difficult, so difficult that I find it unlikely that any man could be happy with them.

I've been trying to say this for years on these fora. There is a good number of Russian and Ukrainian women that RM avoid because these women have one or more traits that would make life with them a torture: VERY negative thinking, bitchy, always unsatisfied personality, substance dependency, other types of abusive/dysfunctional behavior, psychological or psychiatric disorders among other dysfunctions and pathologies. If a man has enough life experience and is a fluent Russian speaker those RW are pretty easy to identify and stay away from. Not so easy for a "Russian bride" seeker who acquired most of his "knowledge" about RW from the mail order bride sites and who is relying on his RW's limited English skills...
Obviously RM avoid these women like plague! So where do you think these women are looking for a husband? 
Honestly, I've never seen such a concentration of RW mental basket cases as I found on some of the "RW looking for Western men" forums. To be fair, there were nice sane women there as well, but I was just surprised how many psychotic RW were gathering in one place.


There are plenty of wonderful, kind, loving, tender, sane and positive FSU women, just get to know the woman you are planning to marry BEFORE you tie the nut and bring her to your country!

[Eduard]

Ed, solid as usual.

спасибо братан!

[Eduard]

Not many but some.  Mixed observations.  A couple RW ended up happily married to a new AM.  A couple of others focus on the local RM population.   
 
Then there is the category of women whose lot in life is to get passed from man to man in relatively short order.  Sounds derogatory, yet I don't know how to express it in any other manner.  Such women are everywhere including AW.

I agree

[Eduard]

3.  Through friends of RW I dated,  I have met many married Russian couples living in Russia.   First, the RM impress me as good men. 

I agree, many married RM are great, loving fathers and husbands, I know several such couples both in Russia and here in the USA (soon to be USSA if Obama is re-elected  )

[ML]

Honestly, I've never seen such a concentration of RW mental basket cases as I found on some of the "RW looking for Western men" forums. To be fair, there were nice sane women there as well, but I was just surprised how many psychotic RW were gathering in one place.

This is very interesting as well as quite alarming.
It may very well be true; but I cannot fathom how you are able to categorize the women from a reading of the websites.

[GQBlues]

This is very interesting as well as quite alarming.

You bet. This is why every newbies need to hire Eduard for his services.
 
Can you imagine an unsuspecting guy dating a RW without knowing he's just wasting months of his time, not to mention wads amount of money, only to find out just before he files for a K-1 that the woman have nefarious intentions all along and easily dumps him immediately thereafter?
 
 Only he can best determine and keep those types of women away from these helpless dudes.
 
 

[Gator]

I've been trying to say this for years on these fora. There is a good number of Russian and Ukrainian women that RM avoid because these women have one or more traits that would make life with them a torture: VERY negative thinking, bitchy, always unsatisfied personality, substance dependency, other types of abusive/dysfunctional behavior, psychological or psychiatric disorders among other dysfunctions and pathologies. 

I eliminated many women during phone calls based on not having "chemistry." Perhaps they fit into one of these categories ("VERY negative thinking, bitchy, always unsatisfied personality....").  I don't know.  All I know was I did not want to meet them.  Two got past my screens.  It was bad, and a waste of time (and money).
 

So where do you think these women are looking for a husband? 
Honestly, I've never seen such a concentration of RW mental basket cases as I found on some of the "RW looking for Western men" forums. To be fair, there were nice sane women there as well, but I was just surprised how many psychotic RW were gathering in one place. 

I do not believe the FSU medical profession is good at diagnosing and treating psychological conditions such as clinical depression, bipolar disorders, etc.  These conditions are not rare in the human population, so it makes one wonder.   
 
I am with ML in that I don't believe you can detect such from reading brief profiles, especailly when everyone knows their profile should be pleasant and wonderful.

[Muzh]

I am in touch with a number of Russian/FSU women in their 40's-50's.

What I say may surprise you, but it is the truth.

Each woman had no problem coming out in their first correspondence to tell me point blank, that they are interested in leaving their country.
They said this without my asking or prompting in any way!

Man from Canadia, consider the following you posted and tell me if any woman who has virtually no chance at being married or have a life mate in her town (be it Joliet, Runnymede or Pokotilovka) would not adventure somewhere else to find that? That is, IF that is what she's looking for.

Many of these women also have few ties remaining in their country.
Their kids are grown and starting to be independent.
Most of their parents have passed away.
Many are single children themselves.

[Muzh]

Russia sucks for those who suck themselves.
Where are you from? Have you ever been to 80% white trash areas, or areas where its a lilbit dark (if you know what I mean) like New Orleans or just bad bad bad neighborhoods in big cities like NYC or LA?
Seriously. Your post is ridiculous.
When I was in DC (we got a hotel room in bad neighborhood) I was praying i get back to my room from metro station all in one piece. Same in NYC - got a room at Comfort Inn or smth near JFK, went out to get a pack of cigarettes - OMG I never been that scared in my whole entire life. Shopping in El Paso - 'pregnant'  women 'get preggo' for half an hour to steal stuff....
Oh and Russian dont live in trailers.
I assume you are(or your Russian friend) from Lala land and you make at least 200K if you say that. Its cool, but here in El Paso my neighbor across the street has an unemployed wife and 4 kids and he makes around 30K. And its not something unheard you know. I dont know how those guys make it, but 100% I had way better life in Russia.
I m sorry. Your post seemed just offensive to me.

Sniper, I'm with you here.

However, give the guys in Flushing (NY) a little slack. First, they would not bother you at all. You'd be surprised how helpful and friendly they can be.

Between you and me, if I could move to where my in-laws live in UA, I would. However, I have a 9 yo to think about. I'll tell you the area where I live you would consider perfect to raise a family. (Psst, I don't lock my doors when I leave for work. Shh) Still I find the area of Kharkiv very appealing. I can see where FSU countries have plenty to offer to those of us who have never been there.

P.S. I had an intern here who's originally from Sankt Peterburg who got a job offer in Miami. The job started @ $50K with lots of advancements. She told them she really didn't want to move to Miami. No problem, she would have to fly in twice a month (paid for by the company) and she could work from home. After a month she quit and moved back to Sankt Peterburg. She's doing fine and planning on getting married next summer. She still emails me once in a while. That definitely doesn't sound like the city sucks.

[sniper]

Great city, and the black population is largely good and entertaining. Knowing the "local" spots helps.

No one here talks about 'black population'. Blacks are fine, its Ns that bother me.

 

Sniper, I'm with you here.

However, give the guys in Flushing (NY) a little slack. First, they would not bother you at all. You'd be surprised how helpful and friendly they can be.

Between you and me, if I could move to where my in-laws live in UA, I would. However, I have a 9 yo to think about. I'll tell you the area where I live you would consider perfect to raise a family. (Psst, I don't lock my doors when I leave for work. Shh) Still I find the area of Kharkiv very appealing. I can see where FSU countries have plenty to offer to those of us who have never been there.

P.S. I had an intern here who's originally from Sankt Peterburg who got a job offer in Miami. The job started @ $50K with lots of advancements. She told them she really didn't want to move to Miami. No problem, she would have to fly in twice a month (paid for by the company) and she could work from home. After a month she quit and moved back to Sankt Peterburg. She's doing fine and planning on getting married next summer. She still emails me once in a while. That definitely doesn't sound like the city sucks.

Right. Well, everything depends on 1.how much you make 2.attitude. My husbands salary makes El Paso OK-to-live-here-for-a-while. 

[Jumper]

Considering a couple of factors: there is 'some' truth in the statement only very few Russians are interested in leaving Russia these days -  at least from the Fiance/e visa standpoint based on the 2010 data. Of the 30,400+ fiancee visa issued FY10, only 651 are from Russia (720 Ukraine). Heck, even the UK surpassed the number for both countries at 975. Give Uzbekistan credit as they only had 47. Uzbek women leave for looooove. Meaning, only a few Uzbek women have fascination for really old men.
 
Factoring also that Russia these days enjoy a whoping 88% of non-immigrant visa approval rate as seemingly this alone have likely further added to the near demise of the Russian-borne bride industry. Of course, it doesn't mean that the rate shown also meant they all went back to Russia at their visa expiry date. There's more than a few that are searching for the young and the willing sexy US Kens while in-country, instead of having to marry agency-hog Joe Loser like in the old days of yore.
 
Either that or the US is running out of middle-aged, overweight petitioners, and/or the social misfits that has Slavic persuasion.
 
So I believe the best advice these days is, yes, expect reality.

Going by your stats,  if uzbeks marry for love, UK gals marry almost all the remaining
older overweight fogies..lol
 
 
 
Oddly enough my first wife was from Ireland,and we were both mid  twenties..
 
 
 

[Jumper]

There are not enough decent men to get married.

I agree thats generally the case,or at least the RW's perception of her case..

 
but exactly why.
 
 
It would be great to know,
as isn't that the crux of the whole east/west matter?
 
 
 

[CanadaMan]

Man from Canadia, consider the following you posted and tell me if any woman who has virtually no chance at being married or have a life mate in her town (be it Joliet, Runnymede or Pokotilovka) would not adventure somewhere else to find that? That is, IF that is what she's looking for.

Muzh, apart from the beginning of my opening post in this thread where I tell Ed his advice/info has been spot on, the rest of what I have said has been simply statements of fact. I wish to keep it this way for this post and make no judgments of FSU women in general.

[OlgaH]

but exactly why.
 
 
It would be great to know,
as isn't that the crux of the whole east/west matter?

I also wonder why if the Russian men are brought up by their Russian mothers, especially when you read on the boards that the Russian men are not good fathers and they don't participate in their children upbringing.

[noelscot]

Russia sucks for those who suck themselves.
Where are you from? Have you ever been to 80% white trash areas, or areas where its a lilbit dark (if you know what I mean) like New Orleans or just bad bad bad neighborhoods in big cities like NYC or LA?
Seriously. Your post is ridiculous.
When I was in DC (we got a hotel room in bad neighborhood) I was praying i get back to my room from metro station all in one piece. Same in NYC - got a room at Comfort Inn or smth near JFK, went out to get a pack of cigarettes - OMG I never been that scared in my whole entire life. Shopping in El Paso - 'pregnant'  women 'get preggo' for half an hour to steal stuff....
Oh and Russian dont live in trailers.
I assume you are(or your Russian friend) from Lala land and you make at least 200K if you say that. Its cool, but here in El Paso my neighbor across the street has an unemployed wife and 4 kids and he makes around 30K. And its not something unheard you know. I dont know how those guys make it, but 100% I had way better life in Russia.
I m sorry. Your post seemed just offensive to me.

I'm from Alabama. White people in the city where I live are in the minority. The murder rate is #6 out of the top 25 most dangerous cities in America, when I last checked. (You could read Jared Taylor's "The Color of Crime," if you believe there is a correlation between minorities and crime rates, but it would be un-PC, and I'd probably get banned, if I addressed his findings here).  I grew up in a rural area. Come from a poor background. By no means am I rich. I wish I made 200k!
 
When you talk about "white trash," do you mean rich "white trash" or poor "white trash"? To me, "white trash" are simply whites who are racially apathetic to their tribe.  For example, white businessmen who hire non-white illegal aliens and put their fellow whites out of work are "white trash," because they are apathetic to the plight of other working class whites.
 
I've been to El Paso. Buddy's Beer Barn is great and so is Carlos and Mickey's.
 
As far as crime and racial problems go, I agree with you 100%: America sucks in that regard. If I had the means and language skills I'd move. But as far as having better privileges (what some people call "rights"), America offers better opportunities for advancement and personal freedoms than Russia. but the advantage Russia has is that it is racially homogenous and there are shared cultural values. America is losing that.
 
It will be interesting to see where Russia is in the next 20 years, because the vast natural resources (which are the people's oil and natural gas) should improve the geopolitical power of Russia and the standard of living. But I imagine greedy oligarchs (rich white trash) will keep the spoils to themselves and the divide between rich and poor will only grow.
 
Just as a sidenote: I currently know a Russian who lives in a trailer. What is wrong with living in a trailer? This woman also from a major Russian city.
 
Anyway, you're preaching to the choir, because I like Russia a lot. Always have. I like America a lot too. I probably like Russia more than most Russians, but I've never been there, and I admit that I am largely ignorant of daily life over there. I do like that when I talk to Russians, they seem more racially concious and not afraid to speak their minds, as opposed to white Americans who are very cowardly.
   

[ML]

I probably like Russia more than most Russians, but I've never been there, and I admit that I am largely ignorant of daily life over there.   

WOW, quite a statement