Realistic Expectations

[Misha]

A lot of guys who are coming in FSU think that dating  FSU women will help their lacking ability with women relationships. Of course they are fool.

There is one reason why dating FSU is much easier than dating Canadian women IMHO: they tend to be much more direct in dating, and if you are somewhat shy around women it makes things sooooooooo much easier. In my experience, when a RW is interested in you, she will make it quite clear to you, and that does make it easier for some men to date RW 

[IAmZon]

Quote from: Eduard on January 11, 2012, 09:47:48 AMToo many Western men who are quite average in looks and everything else think that somehow they have this imaginary "special value" because they can provide a Russian woman the way to citizenship in his country. This way of thinking is flawed and dangerous, because you just might get what you wish for - a nowdays rare woman who for some reason is interested in obtaining citizenship in your country and will use you as a stepping stone.


Hi Ed, sorry I've not had a chance to read every page here so I doubt I've mentioned anything ground breaking, but thought I would chip in here!Firstly, absolutely bang-on statement above (and the entire OP)!

Well, expectations and league and ranges and whatever else is something I have become expert on    


As far as being an average man wanting to find an above average woman ... he has to TRY.  Fashion, Style, Physical Fitness, Hobbies, Adventure, hell even voice lessons!  can make a man 100% more "attractive."  The truth of the matter is that most men don't have to be PRETTY, they just need to be NOT UGLY.   And, this only deals with the outward.


Then, a man must be calm and not "hungry hearted".  If a woman senses that a man is desirous and sacrificing his judgment, he can become a plaything, or a mule, or a nothing to her. If, on the other hand, a man has a calmness and choice of female companionship, the woman is more earnest.  This is an inward considerations - BEING COOL.


HOWEVER, both of these points only consider attraction, not building a real, sincere relationship.   Often times the things that create attraction can sabotage a real relationship. 


I have traveled and lived in South America much of the last 3 years, and as a consequence, I am not the same man and have different perspectives and approaches.  With regard to women?  I have dated boat loads of ladies - a handful of beauty queens.  Perhaps years ago I would call such things "getting lucky"    Nowadays, such things are normal to my way of thinking (providing I do not stay in the USA too long LOL)   


So my point is that I do not have an American Man's expectations.   The Bad News is I HAVE HIGH EXPECTATIONS.   The Good News is that I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO 24 - 30 YEAR OLDS ANYMORE.  Thus, there is still hope for me:)

[Muzh]

Why do you not care for it? It it absolutely, positively spot on for the vast majority of cases.

Read it again, one more time. 

[Muzh]

The thing is that this (Feminism) improvement didn't occured in collaboration with men. It was the consequence of both a psychological and philocophical fight. Because of this, to finally find a space to exist and survive, most of the Feminist theory had to destroy and negate parts of the traditional models of living together in a marriage/family.

That means that in the last decades, the image and the meaning of the figure of the father in the family suffered very much.

Suddenly a majority of men faced a situation where they were not supposed/allowed to be what during years they were taught to be. While excesses of this position were rightfully questioned and criticized, also many positive aspects of the traditional models were thrown out by the window.
This led to the realisation of many families where no models were in place, like if uncertainty became a new state of life.

Leelou, very good analysis.

I guess the main beef of this argument is that many guys are unable or unwilling to publicly accept their shortcomings with the "model" we have in place.

For starters, it has been my observation that many guys doing this are very conservative. Feminism is a four letter word for them. Also, you will hear ad nauseaum the "traditional role" of FSUW. So basically, they fall withing this category of men who cannot or will not incorporate the new "model" that has been established here as a result of feminism. IOW, hard for them to find a real date here.

Guys, it is NOT a sin to accept this fact. It IS reality, so please stop the" fat AW" attack.

Most of these guys believe that they have the means to provide for the traditional role in a family, regardless if they are bald and overweight or in shape and young-looking. And the fact is that many RWs are more than willing to accept this old "model" of life in the West. Symbiosis.

[Maxx2]

OK, first post! Hi Guys
 

Run! Forrest! Run! if you know what's good for you!

[JR]

Read it again, one more time. 

I read it again, one more time. You either don't like what he said or you don't like the implications. My guess is that you don't like the implications...

[JR]

Guys, it is NOT a sin to accept this fact. It IS reality, so please stop the" fat AW" attack.

Amen!
Althouth AW are the most obese in the world, so are AM. 50% of Americans are overweight but even with removing the overweight population that leaves a greater dating pool than the FSU....

[Leelou]

So basically, they fall withing this category of men who cannot or will not incorporate the new "model" that has been established here as a result of feminism. IOW, hard for them to find a real date here.

Guys, it is NOT a sin to accept this fact. It IS reality, so please stop the" fat AW" attack.

Sure. The thing is there are also a huge variety of men in that category. Some men do really have issues and use the traditional model has a way of gaining complete control on the family, other simply feel more in phase with this type of living.
I don't feel any shame in saying that, though I am not willing to live the traditional modle at 100%, I do believe that many elements of it are positive and I wanted to find a woman that would be able to present the good sides of modernity while also understanding what is good in tradition. I am not fully conservative (at least not in the negative sense of the term), but I clearly have some conservative opinions on certain subjects, can't deny it.

But you see, at least in Western societies, the traditional model is always linked with negative ideas and feelings. Medias present it in a very destructive way so that people feel ashamed to say they might agree with some points of tradition. There is now a very politically correct manner of treating subjects related with marriage (but not only, it is the same with other stuff such as economy, immigration, civil rights, ect,...) so that people sometimes refuses what they really feel because they are afraid of what other could say about them in public.

I personally never had any problems for finding dates. But I am young and so in my best years. However, I never enjoyed the mentality of women I came across. I had with time to accept the thing that I wanted a mix of modern opinions and more traditional behaviors. When I met my fiancée, I was very happy to see there were still women xho could be very modern and strong while also respecting the teaching of the past. For me her personality and behavior is the kind of good mix I enjoy and respect... But I know that in the West, she would directly be labelled as conservative women, and us a conservative couple... though I strongly reject that idea because I cook, I wash the dishes, I wash the clothes and I iron

 

[Muzh]

I read it again, one more time. You either don't like what he said or you don't like the implications. My guess is that you don't like the implications...

Okay, let's see what I wrote.
 

You know I don't care much for anything you say but, in this case my hat's off to you sir. Well said.

The sad part is that the gents reading this are still cruising somewhere in Egypt.

First sentence, first phrase = We butt heads because we don't agree most of the time.
 
First sentence, second phrase = However, in this case I do agree completely with what he said.
 
Egypt cruise = denial. IOW many will read what he said but will fall on deaf ears.

[JR]

Okay, let's see what I wrote.
 
First sentence, first phrase = We butt heads because we don't agree most of the time.
 
First sentence, second phrase = However, in this case I do agree completely with what he said.
 
Egypt cruise = denial. IOW many will read what he said but will fall on deaf ears.

I know I know but how much fun is that?  )))

[onlyFSU4me]

Guys, it is NOT a sin to accept this fact. It IS reality, so please stop the" fat AW" attack.

 The only "fat AW attack" I've seen here came from you and GI Blues and your misunderstandings  about what I said. Go back and read my answers to what GI Blues told me, I don't feel like writing it down for the 3rd time!
 No where did I say that I wasn't attracted to western women because they are fat or have a more feminist mindset. I said most older single women I found here at home are afraid to commit themselves to a serious relationship, even when single life is much more difficult. In my opinion this comes from personal insecurity, not from being strong willed and more feminist ideals.... quite opposite from what you are saying. 

[magnetic_fields]

Here are two interesting articles which highlight the problems of modern dating in Urban America. In the first a writer from the village voice finally says what men have been complaining about for years, that simply the problem doesn't lie with the men but instead the women! Yup a female writer wrote a long article simply stating:

Here's the deal, women of New York City: The so-called plight of the single lady? It's not about him. It's about you.   

Village voice article: http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-02-09/news/dear-single-women-of-nyc-it-s-not-them-it-s-you/

And then there is this article which simply says women are putting off marriage/family so much that a whole new generation of "spinsters" or "old maids" (women that never got married or had children) is emerging because there are simply not enough good available men left.  Fascinating stuff:

Recent years have seen an explosion of male joblessness and a steep decline in men’s life prospects that have disrupted the “romantic market” in ways that narrow a marriage-minded woman’s options: increasingly, her choice is between deadbeats (whose numbers are rising) and playboys (whose power is growing). But this strange state of affairs also presents an opportunity: as the economy evolves, it’s time to embrace new ideas about romance and family—and to acknowledge the end of “traditional” marriage as society’s highest ideal.


Atlantic monthly: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/

What we have in America now is an all out "battle of the sexes". In some cities there are too many men and in others there are too many women. And depending on where you live determines how lucky you will be to find a suitable partner.  Crazy stuff!

[Misha]

Here are two interesting articles which highlight the problems of modern dating in Urban America.

The passage that stands out for me:

For every loser I've screamed at, there have been nice, normal single guys with perfectly acceptable ZIP codes and ages and jobs and habits who never did a thing wrong but for some reason were chucked after the first or second, or maybe even third, date for being boring, predictable, too nice, too normal, not successful enough, or . . . admitted to no one, perhaps not even myself: too available. The scariest of scary words.

[Eduard]

yes it's telling, but I don't think it's exclusively a trate of Western women. RW are the same on average, cute bad boys  are preferred by RW as well! IMO the difference is that RW just don't have as many options of men available to them so they aren't as picky as AW ...  and oh yes it's the old ratio thingy whatever numbers you wanna input there!   

[magnetic_fields]

yes it's telling, but I don't think it's exclusively a trate of Western women. RW are the same on average, cute bad boys  are preferred by RW as well! IMO the difference is that RW just don't have as many options of men available to them so they aren't as picky as AW ...  and oh yes it's the old ratio thingy whatever numbers you wanna input there! 

The way I see it Russian women find good practical reasons to be with a guy versus American women who find ridiculous reasons not to be with him. Of course there are exceptions but generally this has been my experience at least in nyc.  The distinction can really be summed up by the glass is half full/half empty analogy and RW in my experience tend to focus on the positive attributes of the men they date.  It's a world of difference over there!

Also the way our society now views marriage as can be seen in those articles paints a more vivid picture. In indian culture there is a saying, "get married first then fall in love" instead of what we do here in the west, "fall in love first then maybe get married". If men and women don't value a good marriage as an ideal worth striving for why bother looking for good stable mates?  It's like that movie "moscow does not believe in tears" where the women humbly appreciate their men instead of always looking to "upgrade".  A film like that would be laughed at by modern american women. In fact Anya from Moscow used to watch "sex and the city" and she thought those ladies were utterly inane and spoiled in their behavior.  She wanted to come to NYC to teach them a lesson in good manners! haha! Still I am not saying RW are pushovers-far from it. But if they see a decent man they won't easily let him go. In that sense Russian women in my opinion definitely resemble something I normally associate with asian cultures...

[Eduard]

The bottom line (putting other issues aside) , IMO, is that AW got spoilled by having too many options of available men here in the States. The situation is a 180 degrees in reverse in Russia where men are doing all the choosing and many women are left alone without any possibility of finding a mate locally. This changes the dating dynamic, the attitude, the mentality, whatever you wanna call it.

[ML]

I would say this is one reason of difference between RW and AW in terms of how do they perceive the marriage. Life in Russia is hard, period. Life in the West is comfortable and relatively easy if you know how to work the society's institution to your advantage. An AW knows that if she stays single, she will still be able to live a full life. In contrast, a RW will likely not be able to go through all the hardships without a male support. Perhaps it would be similar to the old times, where, as another member said, women were competing for a man, and men were resistant to marriage.

The bottom line (putting other issues aside) , IMO, is that AW got spoilled by having too many options of available men here in the States. The situation is a 180 degrees in reverse in Russia where men are doing all the choosing and many women are left alone without any possibility of finding a mate locally. This changes the dating dynamic, the attitude, the mentality, whatever you wanna call it.

All this needless rhetoric about why FSUW and AW act differently toward AM.

Lily and Eduard give us the short and sweet answer.

Why is it so hard to understand?

The FSUW are not choosing AM because we are handsome or great lovers.

[Eduard]

The FSUW are not choosing AM because we are handsome or great lovers.

what makes you say that? I've gone with a bunch of guys to Russia and Ukraine who were quite handsome to average looking. Even the average looking guys compared  favorably to what was available to RW locally.
In fact I'm puzzled by how much flack certain members give to the WM who are slightly overweight or don't have the Brad Pitt look. Do they think that all RM who are married to RW look like models? I've seen plenty of RM RW couples in Russia and Ukraine who didn't look "convincing" together... heck, my cousin in Donetsk who is 60 and has a huge gut is married to a beautiful blondy, 30 years younger than him. They have a small child together and are quite happy. So why can't an average looking AM get a nice looking RW? Off course he can, it's really easy in fact if you know what you are doing.

[Muzh]

 The only "fat AW attack" I've seen here came from you and GI Blues and your misunderstandings  about what I said. Go back and read my answers to what GI Blues told me, I don't feel like writing it down for the 3rd time!
 No where did I say that I wasn't attracted to western women because they are fat or have a more feminist mindset. I said most older single women I found here at home are afraid to commit themselves to a serious relationship, even when single life is much more difficult. In my opinion this comes from personal insecurity, not from being strong willed and more feminist ideals.... quite opposite from what you are saying.

Boy, don't get so touchy. No one was accusing you of anything.

This comment was directed at the general male public who will use this "fat AW" attack to justify their search for a hot babe (who would not give him two seconds of her life in the west) in economically disparaged countries.

If the shoe fits...

[Muzh]

What we have in America now is an all out "battle of the sexes". In some cities there are too many men and in others there are too many women. And depending on where you live determines how lucky you will be to find a suitable partner.  Crazy stuff!

I'd like to point out Leelou's excellent analysis why this battle of the sexes. In specific:
 

I might sound a bit harsh now, and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to explain myself properly in english, but I sincerely belive it also has to do with the consequences of Feminism and its theory on western society. Feminism has brought a lot of good stuff because it helped giving a place to women in our society that they diserved to have. It allowed them a freedom to enjoy the right to choose the type of life they wanted to have and this is great. While it is still not perfect everywhere in the Western world nowadays, it still way better for a Lady to live today than 60 years ago when it comes to freedom of choice.

The thing is that this improvement didn't occured in collaboration with men. It was the consequence of both a psychological and philocophical fight. Because of this, to finally find a space to exist and survive, most of the Feminist theory had to destroy and negate parts of the traditional models of living together in a marriage/family.

[Eduard]

I agree, truly insightful analysis by LeeLou! 

[Patagonie]

The way I see it Russian women find good practical reasons to be with a guy versus American women who find ridiculous reasons not to be with him. Of course there are exceptions but generally this has been my experience at least in nyc.  The distinction can really be summed up by the glass is half full/half empty analogy and RW in my experience tend to focus on the positive attributes of the men they date.  It's a world of difference over there!

Also the way our society now views marriage as can be seen in those articles paints a more vivid picture. In indian culture there is a saying, "get married first then fall in love" instead of what we do here in the west, "fall in love first then maybe get married". If men and women don't value a good marriage as an ideal worth striving for why bother looking for good stable mates?  It's like that movie "moscow does not believe in tears" where the women humbly appreciate their men instead of always looking to "upgrade".  A film like that would be laughed at by modern american women. In fact Anya from Moscow used to watch "sex and the city" and she thought those ladies were utterly inane and spoiled in their behavior.  She wanted to come to NYC to teach them a lesson in good manners! haha! Still I am not saying RW are pushovers-far from it. But if they see a decent man they won't easily let him go. In that sense Russian women in my opinion definitely resemble something I normally associate with asian cultures...

Good post. I like it. I agree AW cultivate the art of seing the half empty glass rather than the full one.

[onlyFSU4me]

Boy, don't get so touchy. No one was accusing you of anything.

This comment was directed at the general male public who will use this "fat AW" attack to justify their search for a hot babe (who would not give him two seconds of her life in the west) in economically disparaged countries.

If the shoe fits...

 GI Blues quoted me, then you agreed with him. How else was I suppost to think? 

[Faux Pas]

 GI Blues quoted me, then you agreed with him. How else was I suppost to think?

First, rationally and objectively. Explore what the poster is saying, what you think they meant and what they could have meant. More often than not such occurrences are not meant as a dig but, more of a chest pounding "I might be smarter than you" statement. Allow for benefit of doubt. 

On forums such as this too much is perceived as negative when it really isn't.

[onlyFSU4me]

First, rationally and objectively. Explore what the poster is saying, what you think they meant and what they could have meant. More often than not such occurrences are not meant as a dig but, more of a chest pounding "I might be smarter than you" statement. Allow for benefit of doubt. 

On forums such as this too much is perceived as negative when it really isn't.

 Understood. I wasn't worried about the comments being negative. I thought of them more as off track from what I was trying to say. I went back and reread the conversation to see what was said that would make GI answer me with his comments and came to the conclusion that maybe he assumed something wrong. That's all I was trying to point out. Don't worry, my feelings didn't get hurt!