When does the game stop?

[IAmZon]

Quote[/size]again, it really HAS TO BE the correct foot, on the correct woman.


Could you please define it?

HAHA - I think it is best if I do not define this ...

[TheTraveler]

Ok, guys. So, we have a women with no income, we are ok if she has her "own life".
How?

I doubt my situation is uncommon -- one where a guy has a high-end career and doesn't have any desire for a 'career woman' in his life.
 
And my wife does not have 'no income'... We both work our family business -- me full-time and my wife part-time.
 
As for our 'own lives'... We have 3 young kids.  We have no time for our own lives.

[Doll]

HAHA - I think it is best if I do not define this ...

Here we go again. You don't define, then you blame women.
Listen, this "I am busy and I travel, my wife should be the right woman to bare it" - it is not for RW. This is what we are trying to tell you.
It can actually work in case the man always behaves (which is next to impossible).
 

[Doll]

I doubt my situation is uncommon -- one where a guy has a high-end career and doesn't have any desire for a 'career woman' in his life.
 
And my wife does not have 'no income'... We both work our family business -- me full-time and my wife part-time.
 
As for our 'own lives'... We have 3 young kids.  We have no time for our own lives.

Good for you!

[IAmZon]

Here we go again. You don't define, then you blame women.Listen, this "I am busy and I travel, my wife should be the right woman to bare it" - it is not for RW. This is what we are trying to tell you. It can actually work in case the man always behaves (which is next to impossible).

I am new here again, and do not recognize you or your posts.  I take it you are a Russian Woman, correct?   Thus, the explainable then goes like this ... you said, "You want a woman to kiss your feet" meaning be your servant.  I responded, saying, I would rather kiss her's meaning I think women's toes can be sexy.  So, it was sort of a joke.

In other ways, I think I have clarified my points up-thread.

And, it is totally possible for a mature relationship to run with loyalty, honesty, and dignity ... with whatever rules the man and woman create.  Of course, many men cheat when given the opportunity.   But, I do not see this as a problem for me going forward.

[Doll]

rivardco, I am a Russian woman, I did not say anything like "kissing the feet means being a servant"
What are you talking about?

[Doll]

What does this "size 11 times" mean? 

[Daveman]

So what's the problem?  There are plenty of women in the world who would love to be stay at home wives/mothers, put the relationship first before career, blah blah, there are plenty of others who want to have their own careers. 





What I think is hilarious is the how the women are judging this situation as if there is really something wrong with "traditional" roles.  I'd say it's more risky for a wife to be dependent on her husband in such a way, however, there is nothing inherently wrong with it. 


Let's all be sure to ridicule and belittle those who wish to life their lives differently than ourselves.  That's what we're here for.

[TheTraveler]

There is another concept in Russian, something along the lines "man who seeks to marry an orphan," in a milder version - "wants to marry provincial girl"/"осчастливить провинциалку." By definition, a man who fits into this category has something wrong about him. Basically this is a man who is intentionally looking for underprivileged woman, not necessarily a woman with bad manners, more of a "diamond from the dirt" who would have poor prospects in life otherwise, and who would be eternally grateful for him, but most importantly - he will be able to believe that he gave this woman everything. In return, (in the extreme version) the woman should "kiss his feet" and worship him, be an ideal homely wife, etc etc.   
Of course, things do not usually work out that way, sooner or later the woman turns out to be not what he expected, or the guys outgrows his dreams and marries someone more compatible with himself, but the instances when men from cities have the mindset "I will make this poor, humble, but noble in her virtues girl happy whereas city girls are all spoiled" is not that seldom among Ukrainian guys. Cannot speak for Russian guys because I know only several of them, but I'd suspect the same happening in Russia.

Why is it not very normal? Imagine for a moment that otherwise fine woman (professional, good looking, etc.) specifically wants to marry a disabled man. She finds a man, whom she considers to be disabled, and she always reminds the man that he is disabled. The only problem is that the man isn't really disabled, and he isn't staying with this woman because he needs her, he married her because  - maybe because he was stupid, and he is helping her with everything.

I am not saying that Rivardco is like that, and I understand that live personalities may be quite different than forum images. But the image created in this thread has a tiny bit of that "i will find a perfect provincial girl for myself."

Translation: "If you aren't seeking an 'uptown girl', there must be something psychologically wrong with you!"
 
(Funny stuff!)

[mies]

Yeah, I do not back off that point.  For me, I am happy to do without a second income to have the full attention of my woman.   Of course, I want her to have a separate life!  I travel often and am busy.  But, I think one such person in a relationship is more than enough ...

nothing wrong about that point. So basically, if I understood your expectations of "traditional family" correctly, this is the family where woman arranges her life around the lifestyle of her husband, and puts his priorities before her own, or in the case of perfect internalization - his priorities ARE her priorities, and she doesn't have any other priorities.
She can have her own interests, and may even be encouraged to have them not to become too boring for her husband/you, but only in the time when she is not needed by you. So in other words, "traditional wife" for you is in a way a "satellite wife."
I agree with Pitbull, and Doll.

As for this:

I THINK ... all too often husbands and wives want too much out of each other, and not allow enough separation.  Thus, a wife is a lover and a mother (and mistress too?); and a best friend, and a partner in the home, and a business partner, and a bowling partner, and so on and so on.    This may be healthy and work for a very very small number of pairings.

it looks to me like you have some vague (or maybe even not so vague) vision in your mind how in the ideal marriage you should be able also to keep your own space whenever you want it, and your wife may have some of her own space when you do not want/need her company. How convenient. And not that hard to dictate your rules when you have a wife with immigration status depending on you and no separate income, maybe even with a child - who knows. So no where to run away even if she will get fed up with your needs, expectations, priorities, and your busy work/travel schedule.

I must admit, it looks like you have developed a very rational plan.   

[mies]

Translation: "If you aren't seeking an 'uptown girl', there must be something psychologically wrong with you!"
 
(Funny stuff!)

I am happy I have entertained you

In FSU, with some rare exceptions evolving in the last 10-15 years, the prestige of "uptown" vs. "downtown" is reverse comparing to American situation, so at first your phrase confused me. The best of the best usually live in the very downtown, while uptown is reserved for working class, recently - sleeping districts with varied level of prestige, some of them are quite good, others - concentration of scum.

Probably, that is because many large cities in FSU are very old, and were built/designed in pre-industrial times. So industrial districts with factories rarely are in the heart of the city, usually in the downtown are fortresses, churches, monasteries - things like that. In those cities rich people always lived in the very center. While some of the younger (maybe in USA as well) cities were growing around large industrial facilities, and therefore the downtown is less popular place for living than uptown. During/around the time of industrial revolution the approach to urban design was to put the factory in the city center, and let workers live nearby so that they can get to work fast, and work long hours, while rich people could enjoy nice estates with gardens a bit farther away from the industrial center. In USA cities are generally much younger than in FSU (or in Europe), so you rarely see here the "old-style" cities.
But it's just my "1-minute to develop" theory, I didn't check any facts, so may be wrong about it.

[Doll]

Completely agree with Mies (who agrees with Pitbull and me ).
Ed is not joining us just because he knows we are saying what exactly is happening in most of A-R (U) marriages.
It is funny (not) - my husband is one of these men who wants this kind of "traditional wife". I said "wants", but doesn't have one .
Yes, Ed, we (RW on this forum) are so "sincere" because we are, like you said, "exposed to the MOB market".
What is so special in terms of this thread in this MOB community? In my understanding, it is a sronger concentration of families where men want(ed) this very "traditional marriage".
 I don't say this idea isn't working- it is! The reasons being (I am seconding Mies) immigrarion status with complete dependence on the husband.
The "best" situation for the "tradition wife" seeker is when she needs to yet get through immigration process, if she has no income and, on top of it, has kids with her American husband. The whole combination is the perfect recepie for the "traditional marrige". This marrige can work if the husband has a perfect behavior (which is a VERY rare thing in A-R families).
I again would like to refere to Amerikanski's thread (though it had sort of different flavour))))) who tried to talk about the "ugly" truth but was banned.
What he was trying to say was that just because of these "expectations" of AM and RW not wanting to meet them (expectations) divorces are VERY frequent.

[Doll]

I do agree to the OP, who says that RW who already live in this country are very different from those who don't. They ARE different because they at some point understood why and how AM want the "traditional wife".
 For this very reason, the basic advises to RW who are marrying AM are a) try to get to know the man before you come here b) get the job as soon as possible to not depend of the men c) think twice before you have kids with your husband,etc.
 Just at the moment there are threads on the Russian forum like
http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=80248
or this
http://www.russian-fiancee.com/rus/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=80093
and many others.

[Doll]

I've read some things from your site, Ed. You recommend to look for the women who are not looking for WM. You're right, but then RW should not approach WM who go to FSU for "wife hunting". Same way!
So, bottom line- it is a very risky and often ugly game.

[Daveman]

... In my understanding, it is a sronger concentration of families where men want(ed) this very "traditional marriage".
 I don't say this idea isn't working- it is! The reasons being (I am seconding Mies) immigrarion status with complete dependence on the husband.
The "best" situation for the "tradition wife" seeker is when she needs to yet get through immigration process, if she has no income and, on top of it, has kids with her American husband. The whole combination is the perfect recepie for the "traditional marrige". This marrige can work if the husband has a perfect behavior (which is a VERY rare thing in A-R families).
I again would like to refere to Amerikanski's thread (though it had sort of different flavour))))) who tried to talk about the "ugly" truth but was banned.
What he was trying to say was that just because of these "expectations" of AM and RW not wanting to meet them (expectations) divorces are VERY frequent.

First off, perfect behavior is rare within any relationship but aside from posts on RW forums, what makes you think it's any different (more rare) in A-R families? (I discount RW fora, or even the trainwrecks here.. just because I firmly believe the 'horror' stories are more entertaining and therefore memorable as well as being like surveys - most do not bother to participate unless they're DISsatisfied)


So basically, are you actually stating that there are no "traditional" women in all of the FSU, but they play along for the immigration process?


Why would your husband "think" he had married a "traditional" woman?  Did you lie to him during the dating process?


Of course expectation differs from "reality" (ensuing updated perception) as projection always plays a role to greater or lesser degrees (but *always* present).  Projection fills in the blanks of what people choose not to see, don't take the time to allow, or the other party chooses not to reveal for whatever reasons.  This is the primary reason, IMO, that most marriages anywhere fail.  The problem is exacerbated by some inherent difficulties in cross cultural marriage, but according to your points, you seem to be stating that more men want traditional families, but not traditional women exist in the FSU, but men project this "traditional" aspect onto them in lieu of real existence (and the women deceptively foster this perception for immigration purposes)...


Amerikanski actually did have some excellent points and could have been a majorly productive member of this forum had he chosen to deliver his messages a little differently.

[Doll]

What is "fora"? This is not the first time I see this word on this board.

[Misha]

What is "fora"? This is not the first time I see this word on this board.

The plural of forum.

[Doll]

Why would your husband "think" he had married a "traditional" woman?  Did you lie to him during the dating process?

I don't remember 
Dave, I don't think any AM who is looking for a Russian wife will openly define their version of "traditional".
My husband (to be) just mentioned that "American women don't know what they want".
It did take me some time but I later realized what he meant. He meant and is still trying  that it is better to have the wife who listens to him. "Listens"- "obeys"
This is the urge to have a power over another person.
  You can see this urge in many many A-R femilies.
I wouldn't "discount" Russian women forUMS because they are not the placese for fun, they are the only way we can be connected.

[Doll]

The plural of forum.

Thanks

[Gator]

I've read some things from your site, Ed. You recommend to look for the women who are not looking for WM. You're right, but then RW should not approach WM who go to FSU for "wife hunting". Same way!

Most RW do exactly that!
 

So, bottom line- it is a very risky and often ugly game.

It is ugly only if the partiues involved (people) are corrupt and deceitful.  Given that there is much corruption and deceit in Russia, perhaps you are correct. 
 
Nevertheless, I got to know fairly well a number of RW who have a good heart.  So I don't shy from them.  I like RW.  Some of their ways differ from the women of my prior life, yet I feel comfortable with RW.   RW and I have fun, even when doing nothing.   
 

[Doll]

It is ugly only if the partiues involved (people) are corrupt and deceitful.  Given that there is much corruption and deceit in Russia, perhaps you are correct. 

No way I was even thinking of corrution in Russia.

[Eduard]

I've read some things from your site, Ed. You recommend to look for the women who are not looking for WM. You're right, but then RW should not approach WM who go to FSU for "wife hunting". Same way!
So, bottom line- it is a very risky and often ugly game.

You probably should know that all but a couple of my clients were nice, family oriented, genuine, hard working guys who wanted to find a beautiful yet down to earth and family oriented woman. I'm glad that you agree with me that it is best to look for a woman who is NOT looking for a foreign man. It makes a lot of sense in my experience and these women generally are much more sincere and genuine in their intentions. And they are not jaded by the MOB business at all on top of that. I'm also very selective who I take on as my clients. I turn down many men because I only want to work with decent, family oriented, psychologically stable men who genuinely want a family and will treat a woman right. I'm not perfect though and did make a mistake acceptine one man as a client who was unstable. But there were certain circumstances that prevented me from seeing his issues. But what I'm trying to say is that my clients are generally very normal guys who will make a woman happy. So I see nothing wrong with RW looking at my guys, they usually like what they see 

[Doll]

It is hard to see these issues, Ed.
 

[Doll]

Ed, so why do these "normal" men who live in the country with huge female population go to FSU?
I understand why Russians who live here do it, but not born Americans.

[mies]

Here is a nice story about international dating games:
http://www.novayasamara.ru/content/%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D1%86%D0%B0

everyone who reads RUssian or can use a translator - enjoy